Question on regeneration and justification?

worshipjunkie

Active Member
Dec 30, 2018
314
321
Springfield
✟27,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Another question for everyone. :) I'm a little confused on the whole regeneration before justification. How does it work? From what I understand, God regenerates the heart which enables you to respond with faith, then you hear the Gospel, and respond with faith leading to justification. Is that correct? If so, what's the difference between regeneration and justification? How long a time period is there between regeneration and justification? Is it possible that someone could be regenerated and not justified (ex: they're regenerated but then have a heart attack before they hear the Gospel, or people in countries where the Gospel isn't preached). And what's the Scriptural evidence for all this?

Thanks!
 

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Regeneration is the change that occurs in you by God, whereas justification is what happens to your position before God once you believe. This was an act entirely independent of you.

Jesus spoke of regeneration as being 'born again.' When you are regenerated, God gives you an entirely new disposition to think, desire, and will on what is right and good before God. This consequently makes you receptive to the gospel preaching and respond accordingly to the call, and at that moment of faith God imputed that righteousness of Christ to your account and justifies you by it as righteous.
 
Upvote 0

Tree of Life

Hide The Pain
Feb 15, 2013
8,824
6,243
✟48,077.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
Another question for everyone. :) I'm a little confused on the whole regeneration before justification. How does it work? From what I understand, God regenerates the heart which enables you to respond with faith, then you hear the Gospel, and respond with faith leading to justification. Is that correct? If so, what's the difference between regeneration and justification? How long a time period is there between regeneration and justification? Is it possible that someone could be regenerated and not justified (ex: they're regenerated but then have a heart attack before they hear the Gospel, or people in countries where the Gospel isn't preached). And what's the Scriptural evidence for all this?

Thanks!

Regeneration and Justification are two important aspects of the broader concept of salvation. When God saves a person, he regenerates them, justifies them, adopts them, sanctifies them throughout their lives, and ultimately glorifies them. There is no salvation that doesn't include all of those aspects. Some of these aspects can be arranged temporally with an ordo salutis (order of salvation). The typical reformed ordo salutis is something like effectual calling, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification.

The Westminster Standards call regeneration effectual calling. Regeneration does not happen apart from the preaching of the gospel and hearing with faith. Regeneration happens through the preaching and hearing of the gospel. As happened with Lydia:

"One who hear us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshipper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul..." (Acts 16:14)

This opening of the heart is regeneration.

At the same time that a person is regenerated, they are also justified. Justification is a legal declaration that a person has lived according to the dictates of the law. Jesus' righteousness is credited to our account (imputation) and we are clothed in Christ. We are declared righteous based on his righteousness given to us as a gift.

So to answer your question, I would say that effectual calling, regeneration, and justification are all basically simultaneous events. Or perhaps one could think of them as three perspectives on the one event of union with Christ. When a person is united to Christ he is justified, called by God, and regenerated.
 
Upvote 0

worshipjunkie

Active Member
Dec 30, 2018
314
321
Springfield
✟27,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
The Westminster Standards call regeneration effectual calling. Regeneration does not happen apart from the preaching of the gospel and hearing with faith. Regeneration happens through the preaching and hearing of the gospel.

Ok, that makes more sense. So when someone hears the Gospel and hears with faith, that's regeneration.

At the same time that a person is regenerated, they are also justified. Justification is a legal declaration that a person has lived according to the dictates of the law. Jesus' righteousness is credited to our account (imputation) and we are clothed in Christ. We are declared righteous based on his righteousness given to us as a gift.

So to answer your question, I would say that effectual calling, regeneration, and justification are all basically simultaneous events. Or perhaps one could think of them as three perspectives on the one event of union with Christ. When a person is united to Christ he is justified, called by God, and regenerated.

So where does faith fit in to this? I know faith is "between" regeneration and justification- but if they basically happen all at once how does that work?

Would it be like this:
Person A hears the Gospel
Person A is convicted and responds
Person A has faith
Person A is justified
 
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,850
1,708
58
New England
✟484,381.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
As one who holds to Eternal Justification I would argue that the elect were justified in Christ before the foundation of the world. In that Eternal Covenant of Grace werein the Father gave a people to the Son in electing love and the Son agreed to do all that was necessary to accomplish their salvation and the Spirit agreed to make the work of Christ effectual to all those given in electing love to Christ we were justified in the purpose of God. Hence the Lord God has never dealt with those He has set His love on as sinners. We were justified in the purpose of God before the foundation of the world and actually justified when Christ died and rose again, hence the focus by the Apostles on His resurrection, and made aware of our salvation and justification ewhen we are given life and faith in Christ.

I take great comfort in knowing that God has never dealt with me as a sinner because I was united to Christ in the Covenant of Grace made between the 3 persons of the Godhead before the foundation of the world.

I know this is a sore and controversial subject in the Reformed camp but I find it to be Scriptural.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
It's best to think of the order as a logical order rather than an order in time. Logically, God's grace comes before any response. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there are separate events you can identify in your life. Indeed God's grace underlies all of our experiences as Christians.
 
  • Like
Reactions: worshipjunkie
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit, you must be born again, (first) to enter the kingdom of God.
Flesh goes on to corruption, the flesh is against God, the flesh is at war, enmity against God's Spirit.
If you are flesh only, you are at enmity with God and are not having eternal life.
When God makes you a new creation in Christ, that relationship and you are become brand new, the old things have passed away, your a a new thing, all things between you and God are new. God at the end of Revelation, says He makes all things NEW.
So God is He who makes you born of God having eternal life, and since your now in a loving relationship with Him as your Father, you can be taught spiritual things of God and believe in Christ due to your new nature of the new man in Christ.
Rev 21
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 
Upvote 0
Jan 26, 2018
9
2
53
Arizona City
✟8,142.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Wow, this is confusing. I understand worshipjunkie's question but he appears to have gotten at least 3 distinctly different answers and then some basic theology.

IS there a standard Biblical or, at least, soteriological answer to this question?
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Wow, this is confusing. I understand worshipjunkie's question but he appears to have gotten at least 3 distinctly different answers and then some basic theology.

IS there a standard Biblical or, at least, soteriological answer to this question?
The standard answer is that we are justified when we believe. But is that truly the Biblical answer?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Another question for everyone. :) I'm a little confused on the whole regeneration before justification. How does it work? From what I understand, God regenerates the heart which enables you to respond with faith, then you hear the Gospel, and respond with faith leading to justification. Is that correct? If so, what's the difference between regeneration and justification? How long a time period is there between regeneration and justification? Is it possible that someone could be regenerated and not justified (ex: they're regenerated but then have a heart attack before they hear the Gospel, or people in countries where the Gospel isn't preached). And what's the Scriptural evidence for all this?

Thanks!
To answer all of your questions in one simple sentence; God sees to it that all of His elect are given life and faith inChrist before anything could end their life, it is His work in us and for us.

When I have more time I will give you the Scriptural evidence for my view of eternal justification.
 
  • Like
Reactions: worshipjunkie
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
The standard answer is that we are justified when we believe. But is that truly the Biblical answer?
It's hard to answer whether it's "the Biblical" answer, since justification is really a Pauline concept. I'd say Paul teaches that justification is by faith, so that's his answer.

But if you want to broaden your perspective, you have to ask: what would be Jesus' answer, and there you have to face the fact that justification isn't a major concept for him.

I'm not sure you want my full theology here, but I'll say that being a follower of Jesus is the Synoptics' equivalent of being justified. Jesus certainly teaches that being his follower carries obligations for how we live, and we'll be held accountable. (So does Paul.) But I also think he calls people as followers before they've done anything, and that this a kind of parallel to justification by faith alone. For Jesus what makes you a follower is "repent and believe the Good News." It seems reasonable to call that faith.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
It's hard to answer whether it's "the Biblical" answer, since justification is really a Pauline concept. I'd say Paul teaches that justification is by faith, so that's his answer.

But if you want to broaden your perspective, you have to ask: what would be Jesus' answer, and there you have to face the fact that justification isn't a major concept for him.

I'm not sure you want my full theology here, but I'll say that being a follower of Jesus is the Synoptics' equivalent of being justified. Jesus certainly teaches that being his follower carries obligations for how we live, and we'll be held accountable. (So does Paul.) But I also think he calls people as followers before they've done anything, and that this a kind of parallel to justification by faith alone. For Jesus what makes you a follower is "repent and believe the Good News." It seems reasonable to call that faith.
But it isn’t our faith that justifies us. It is the person and work of Christ that justifies us. Faith is simply the conduit through which justification is made known. If our faith justifies us then that adds a work to our justification.

The Lord Jesus Christ did speak of it in John 16.

John 16:8-11 (KJV) 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

He is clearly speaking of the fact that sin is unbelief, righteousness in that the grave could not hold Him because He, and all in Him by faith, are justified, and judgment is past for the believer.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Romans 5:1 (KJV) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

In this passage the comma after faith should be after justified. Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The therefore ties the thought directly to 4:25.

Romans 4:25 (KJV) Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Insert the word because of in the place of for, which is acceptable, and we see the connection.
 
Upvote 0

Don Maurer

^Oh well^
Jun 5, 2013
424
136
Pa, USA, Earth, solar system, milky way, universe.
✟53,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
A NT text that interests me concerning regeneration is 1 John. John's concern of being born speaks of regeneration. Quotes are in the NASB
2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ( I am skipping 5:18 which is very similar).
5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

In a way, these texts speak to the "ordo salutus" (order of salvation). The word "born" occurs 6 times in those three verses.
(If you read 5:1 in the ASV it is literally rendered "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." and you can see that the word occurs 3X. If you read greek, please consult the GNT).

The point about the word "born" is that 5 of the 6 times it occurs in the perfect tense (speaks of a past event with continuing result).

2:29 We have the word "born" in green that is in the perfect tense that speaks of something in the past (born/regeneration), and also has a present tense participle that mentions the continuing result... doing righteousness. If one is regenerated in the past, the result is that one does righteousness beginning at the moment of regeneration.
3:9 The one who is regenerated in the past also has a continuing result in that he cannot sin.
5:1 The one who is regenerated in the past, has the continuing result of faith and also loving the others who are regenerate.

Regeneration can be separated from justification-faith-and sanctification as a distinct work of the Holy Spirit even if there is no chronological difference. The question is not chronology but logical order. Regeneration proceeds faith, justification, and sanctification because out of the work of regeneration flows all the continuing results spoken of in 1 John. It is the source spring from which the river of faith and sanctification flows. Regeneration is the moment God touches the heart and turns it from hardened stone into hearts of human flesh. It is the moment that the yoke of our slavery to sin in broken forever (3:9 and 5:18). Regeneration is a gift (Phil 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:). It is completely the work of God without any requirement on the part of man. That is different than justification in that there is a human requirement for justification--> faith and faith alone.

I have read some who talk about God forcing men to believe as thought God has to twist the will of man. Other talk about God turning us into Robot believers. How little they understand the reformed/biblical doctrine of regeneration. In regeneration, God changes the heart and we come running with desire and love for God. We run to God not out of force, not as a Robot, but with hearts wide open to the glory of our God.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,472
✟86,534.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
A NT text that interests me concerning regeneration is 1 John. John's concern of being born speaks of regeneration. Quotes are in the NASB
2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. ( I am skipping 5:18 which is very similar).
5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

In a way, these texts speak to the "ordo salutus" (order of salvation). The word "born" occurs 6 times in those three verses.
(If you read 5:1 in the ASV it is literally rendered "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." and you can see that the word occurs 3X. If you read greek, please consult the GNT).

The point about the word "born" is that 5 of the 6 times it occurs in the perfect tense (speaks of a past event with continuing result).

2:29 We have the word "born" in green that is in the perfect tense that speaks of something in the past (born/regeneration), and also has a present tense participle that mentions the continuing result... doing righteousness. If one is regenerated in the past, the result is that one does righteousness beginning at the moment of regeneration.
3:9 The one who is regenerated in the past also has a continuing result in that he cannot sin.
5:1 The one who is regenerated in the past, has the continuing result of faith and also loving the others who are regenerate.

Regeneration can be separated from justification-faith-and sanctification as a distinct work of the Holy Spirit even if there is no chronological difference. The question is not chronology but logical order. Regeneration proceeds faith, justification, and sanctification because out of the work of regeneration flows all the continuing results spoken of in 1 John. It is the source spring from which the river of faith and sanctification flows. Regeneration is the moment God touches the heart and turns it from hardened stone into hearts of human flesh. It is the moment that the yoke of our slavery to sin in broken forever (3:9 and 5:18). Regeneration is a gift (Phil 1:29 because to you it hath been granted in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf:). It is completely the work of God without any requirement on the part of man. That is different than justification in that there is a human requirement for justification--> faith and faith alone.

I have read some who talk about God forcing men to believe as thought God has to twist the will of man. Other talk about God turning us into Robot believers. How little they understand the reformed/biblical doctrine of regeneration. In regeneration, God changes the heart and we come running with desire and love for God. We run to God not out of force, not as a Robot, but with hearts wide open to the glory of our God.
This is very interesting, though I think you make some unwarranted assumptions that I would like to discuss. When I have more time I will go through your post.

BTW, I agree with you on most of it.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
To practice righteousness means to be a doer of the word, not just a hearer only which shows someone to be deceived. Men dont gather grapes from thorn bushes and a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.
The type of treasure in your heart shows you to be either born of God's spirit , or a son of the devil. Everyone bears their fruit according to their nature.
Even the natural world shows that truth. Fruit is a lot about what you speak out from your heart.

Luke 6:43-45 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit
43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil [a]treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Matthew 7:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
Everyone who is born again is then by nature of them being new creations in Christ justified automatically. And all those born of God will have faith and believe in The Son. Lets keep it simple here, people who fall away from Christ show themselves to be not of US. Maybe at some future time, God will adopt them into His family, Paul wished himself cursed and estranged from God and they had been chosen, Romans 9. But Paul goes on and explains it is not according the flesh (our choices), but God calling us to be His by His Spirit and His choice by word of His promise.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
 
Upvote 0