Why Did Jesus Die On The Cross?

~Anastasia~ said:

The west tends to focus on God being angry with us and desiring someone to be punished, but the east has maintained a focus on God as love who desires to save/heal (same word in the Scriptures)

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Maybe it can be a little of both anger and love at the same time, or maybe anger isn't the right word, since 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....' That and He describes himself as 'long suffering" and unwilling that any should be lost. But everyone agrees there will be a judgement day. I never became a Christian because I was afraid God was angry with me, but because I realized how much I was loved despite my wretched condition.

Daniel C said:

And what IS that curse being reversed?

The curse of Adam and originally sin?

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Yes, "In the day that you eat of it you shall die"

but also..

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Gen 3:16-19)

So it also included all creation.

Daniel C said:

Ok I think we are teasing out words here. Not earn, because then God is in debt to us. Replace earn with gift. A free gift.

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Not trying to be argumentative of course. I didn't think you really meant "earn" but I didn't want anyone to see me affirming it and think it was the EO position.

Following Christ was the main point though

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Absolutely.

Chris V++ said:

Maybe it can be a little of both anger and love at the same time, or maybe anger isn't the right word, since 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....' That and He describes himself as 'long suffering" and unwilling that any should be lost. But everyone agrees there will be a judgement day. I never became a Christian because I was afraid God was angry with me, but because I realized how much I was loved despite my wretched condition.

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Well, even fear if it motivates us can be ok (though if we grow we should proceed to love - which perfect love casts out fear).

And there will certainly be a judgement day. But in a sense, we will judge ourselves. (God WILL judge us, but what I mean is that whatever we become will be what we are before God.)

The most important part of what I said about God being angry was that He demanded SOMEone suffer before His anger could be assuaged so that He would be willing to forgive - and so Jesus suffered - that is the real departure for us.







(By the way, my comments below are general - I'm not saying you see God this way. I wrote the below thinking of a different conversation but I'll leave it since it applies just a little.)

I think the "wrath of God" is sometimes greatly misunderstood. I know people can think of God as simply being patient, but one day His patience runs out and He sort of "blows his top" in a fit of rage.

The problem is that such a God in this case is made in our image ... we put our shortcomings on Him. It puts me in mind of the "gods" of mythology - they were essentially man-like in their passions (and often in their behavior) but people just imagined them with divinity or immortality.

Daniel C said:

Hi Ted

Yeah I read that and still had further thoughts regarding it.

Who do you think the ransom was paid to?

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Hi Daniel,

A ransom is always paid to the one who is holding one in captivity. According to the Scriptures, sin is our captive. The Scriptures tell us that we were bought with the precious blood of Christ.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Daniel C said:

I don't know if it's real blood or symbolic at the last super. If it is real I'm sure it would be Holy and cleansing.

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1 Cor. 10: 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

1 Cor. 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

What you see above is the fact when Paul describes the communion, he refers to them eating bread and not literally eating Christ’s flesh.

Daniel C said:

So the crucifixion and resurrection was an act of propitiation. We are sinful by nature but God rescued us through the cross with Christ.

I ask because I've heard the saying "Jesus died for our sins" but that doesn't really explain much without context.

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There are lots of words in the Greek translated “for” in the English. They include peri (which means "about" or "concerning"), dia ("because of" or "on account of"), and by far the most common, huper ("for," "on behalf of," or "for the sake of"). None of these prepositions necessarily invokes the meaning "in the place of." The Greek word “anti” translate “for” sometimes conveys the meaning “instead of” but could mean “in exchange, in payment for, because of and similar meanings.” Anti is used in “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, which is not “instead of”, but “because of”. According the Strong’s commentary “anti” is used 22 times in the NT, but only twice in context with atonement (really once recorded twice) “...my life a ransom for many” but this does not help because “anti” in other places conveys the idea of “payment for or to” and Christ using “anti” here does not define anti, since it does not tell us who is the kidnapper receiving the ransom, so it could be payment to you. Why was “anti”, which was available, not used any other time in the context of atonement to really show “substitution” if it was substitution?

The resurrection was not part of propitiation, how do you get that?

As the most wonderful parent, God can easily forgive us, but wonderful parents also see to the just fair disciplining of their children if at all possible and will even participate with them in the discipline to develop an even stronger relationship. God allowing Christ to go to the cross and Christ’s willingly went to go the cross to provide a way for us to be fairly justly loving disciplined (poorly translated “punished” many times in the English Bible). We can now be empathetically crucified with Christ as we come to know and love Christ.

Daniel C said:

No I didn't think you were

I didn't think you really meant "earn" but I didn't want anyone to see me affirming it and think it was the EO position.

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Well it's good you read and understood my OP as you are giving the version of the cross from your group/Denominations point of view, which is one of the things I was interested in learning about

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Yes I read it, and was one of the reasons I answered. I don't mind explaining and discussing. I am really not interested in arguing.

It's always good (IMO) for us to understand one another.

~Anastasia~ said:

I think the "wrath of God" is sometimes greatly misunderstood. I know people can think of God as simply being patient, but one day His patience runs out and He sort of "blows his top" in a fit of rage.

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I hope you are right. So do you think the since the Day of the Lord is already foretold it makes sense that we can view it as more of a natural, inevitable consequence than Him suddenly and unexpectedly losing patience and blowing His top?

Chris V++ said:

I hope you are right. So do you think the since the Day of the Lord is already foretold it makes sense that we can view it as more of a natural, inevitable consequence than Him suddenly and unexpectedly losing patience and blowing His top?

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I think we must not look at it as Him simply suddenly losing His patience. It doesn't make sense He would foretell such a thing ... I mean have the capacity to know all yet not have the capacity to control Himself.

The end of the age will come and it is foretold. God is doing all He can to reconcile people to Himself. Remember that He desires all to come to repentance and be saved. But it seems almost certain from Jesus' words that some will reject.

Consider God Himself. Even though He is pure agape-love (which love is patient, love is kind, and all the rest, so it is not in God's nature to suddenly lose control and fall into wrath ... even so, God is ALSO pure and Holy and of such other-ness that we would be unable to even bear His presence in a sinful state. Even the Holy angels are in awe of Him and they have always known Him. Although Moses was His friend, and desired to see God's glory, God told him that it wouldn't be possible because the full manifestation of His glory would kill Moses in the flesh. Not because God was angry and wanted to kill him. And Moses was one who did the will of God as closely as he could. Yet he still would have died just to be exposed to God, because "our God is a consuming fire". It's not because He desires to destroy us ... it's just even the best among us fall so far short of His glory and holiness that fallen flesh can't bear it, can't survive.

So what happens to people who don't take any of the medicine of salvation God wants to give to all? They are going to be totally unprepared to stand in His presence. Not because He hates them or is angry at them, but just because their sin makes them too vulnerable to the fire that God is.

So yes, it is a natural consequence.

I hope that makes sense?

~Anastasia~ said:

So yes, it is a natural consequence.

I hope that makes sense?

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So Hell will be being unprepared in the presence of an omnipresent God? I've watched so many credible youtube NDE accounts of some demonic hellish realm from people who even went into ministry. Is that a prison before the final judgement? I was reading the TAW thread about the Toll Houses. Where do the demons take those departing souls they successfully accuse?

Because He loves us.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:13)

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

Chris V++ said:

So Hell will be being unprepared in the presence of an omnipresent God? I've watched so many credible youtube NDE accounts of some demonic hellish realm from people who even went into ministry. Is that a prison before the final judgement? I was reading the TAW thread about the Toll Houses. Where do the demons take those departing souls they successfully accuse?

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You have to be careful reading about toll houses. It's often best avoided even for Orthodox and trying to understand it outside of our context might be that much more open to error. Most important I will say that the demons have NO authority or power. But souls can be unprepared to meet death.

As to what we can expect to experience when we die, we can expect a foretaste of whatever eternal destiny we have prepared ourselves for. Two reasons - one is that the final judgement has not happened yet. And the soul will be without the body until all bodies are resurrected at the end of the age. So whatever the soul experiences will be without the added experience of the body. (But ... the soul "sees" and "hears" and so on, without physical eyes and ears. Indeed the soul can maybe see and hear more than when in the body, since the spiritual realm which was hidden before is now revealed to the soul which belongs to that realm after death.)


We have to be careful with NDEs. Some aspects may be true. But the enemy is heavily invested in deception as well.

I recently read a very fascinating (to me) book by Seraphim Rose called "The Soul After Death". Again, it's something priests would caution even Orthodox people about reading. But it wasn't exactly what I had expected. He spent several chapters talking about NDEs recently and in history, experienced by Christians and non-Christians, and did a fairly comprehensive analysis of what people reported and how it related to their beliefs and prevailing thought in society and how it compared to historic Christian thought and the Scriptures, etc. I thought it was a great book.

But I've been skeptical about NDEs since reading a book about 20 years ago on the topic. I don't remember the title and overall it was very - comforting - in tone, but I have rarely had so many internal "alarms" going off, if you know what I mean.

Daniel C said:

at the moment i'm feeling overwhelmed in my own life

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You probably already know this but there is a subforum for Prayers and another for Christian Advice if needed.

Daniel C said:

What was the reason(s) for the death and resurrection of Christ?

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To provide a way for us to be made right with God again.

I don't think it's really important to argue about exactly what He did in the atonement. Then we get into the details of the various theories and such.

All we really need to know is that to exercise faith in His accomplishments, forsaking our own efforts and works, is the only thing we need do to make us right with God. Any discussion about the "source" of our faith (Calvinism vs. Arminanism and such) is just as unnecessary for salvation as is having the correct theory of atonement.

Once we, by faith, realize that we have received eternal life and will never again come into condemnation - we can prayerfully seek to find out what is available to us as sons and daughters of God (like answered prayer, healing, power over the devil and all the rest of the promises of God in His Word).

If we remain in fellowship with God and His people we will have the unhindered input of the Holy Spirit to lead us into various truths.

It's definitely best to avoid those who would add anything to your faith with regards to your salvation - such as your own works or the necessity of a priesthood that comes in any way between you with God. It is also best to avoid fellowship where too much emphasis is on liturgy rather than heartfelt worship.

Our future resurrection and or "rapture" is also promised. But there is nothing to do to make that happen but to rest in Jesus and what He has provided by what He did for us when He gave His life.

While there is some potential benefit to participating in forums like this - it may also be detrimental to your spiritual health. Just a little word of warning for what it's worth!

That's more than you asked for. But there ya go anyway.

Daniel C said:

Why do think forums could be potentially be detrimental to spiritual health?

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You'll meet people who will try to talk you out of your faith, convince you that you aren't on solid ground, flawed, wrong, deceived.