Kirsten Gillibrand says anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith"

Are anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith"

  • No, she has it backwards

    Votes: 22 91.7%
  • Yes, she is right the Bible says 'free will' is key to human choice

    Votes: 2 8.3%

  • Total voters
    24

redleghunter

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Just one more example in the growing trend of people who are not Christian (or at least not living by any semblance of Christian principles) telling Christians what it means to be a Christian.
I’m interested in who is advising some of these political candidates on matters pertaining to the Christian Faith.
 
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DamianWarS

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Is Kirsten Gillibrand's theology correct?

Flanked by abortion rights advocated at the Georgia state house Thursday, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand said that laws banning or restricting abortion are "against Christian faith."

"If you are a person of the Christian faith, one of the tenants of our faith is free will. One of the tenants of our democracy is that we have a separation of church and state, and under no circumstances are we supposed to be imposing our faith on other people. And I think this is an example of that effort," she said at a press conference.​

Kirsten Gillibrand says anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith" - CBS News

what about all the other laws? are they counter-free will/counter-Christian too?
 
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redleghunter

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If free will is a tenant of Christian faith and we are not supposed to be imposing our Christian faith on a secular country then why is she imposing free will on other people?
Yes that's quite interesting isn't it.
 
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redleghunter

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what about all the other laws? are they counter-free will/counter-Christian too?
Right. You should have the free will to stab me in the face if you so choose to do so. Gillibrand's answer would be "well there are laws which punish 'face stabbing.' To which one could ask 'well if there were laws protecting human life in the womb from premeditated termination, then we would have to follow that too.' Of course the answer would most likely be 'well that's why I'm running so we can keep that "legal".'
 
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fhansen

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Is Kirsten Gillibrand's theology correct?

Flanked by abortion rights advocated at the Georgia state house Thursday, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand said that laws banning or restricting abortion are "against Christian faith."

"If you are a person of the Christian faith, one of the tenants of our faith is free will. One of the tenants of our democracy is that we have a separation of church and state, and under no circumstances are we supposed to be imposing our faith on other people. And I think this is an example of that effort," she said at a press conference.​

Kirsten Gillibrand says anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith" - CBS News
Wow what an ignorant statement, "...one of the tenants of our faith is free will." That's meaningless. I mean yes, duh, 'free will' is key to human choice'. But that's the whole point, because of free will we can make right choices or wrong choices, meaning we can sin. One of the most important tenants of our faith is that we can abuse free will. And she has.
 
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Calvin_1985

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Is Kirsten Gillibrand's theology correct?

Flanked by abortion rights advocated at the Georgia state house Thursday, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand said that laws banning or restricting abortion are "against Christian faith."

"If you are a person of the Christian faith, one of the tenants of our faith is free will. One of the tenants of our democracy is that we have a separation of church and state, and under no circumstances are we supposed to be imposing our faith on other people. And I think this is an example of that effort," she said at a press conference.​

Kirsten Gillibrand says anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith" - CBS News
Nowhere in the US Constitution is there or has there ever been a law of "Separation of Church and State". This has become an out of control belief based out of nothing.
 
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Davidnic

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Her theology is wrong because Free Will is not license to do anything. Misuse of free will has consequences and we are called to make just laws that don't encourage the wrong things.

We have the free will to choose the wrong but the proper use of freedom is to do what we ought to do.

She presents free will a tenant of Christianity with a logic of a tenant of relativism. So her logic is contradictory. Free Will is a gift to be used properly. It is not a justification to do evil or a reason to enact no laws. By her logic all laws are against free will.

She is basically saying that God has given us the gift of rational thought and choice, so we should be able to do whatever we want with it. And a law that would oppose that is wrong.

Put that general argument in the mouth of the serpent and doesn't it sound pretty familiar.
 
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DamianWarS

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Right. You should have the free will to stab me in the face if you so choose to do so. Gillibrand's answer would be "well there are laws which punish 'face stabbing.' To which one could ask 'well if there were laws protecting human life in the womb from premeditated termination, then we would have to follow that too.' Of course the answer would most likely be 'well that's why I'm running so we can keep that "legal".'
a collapse of society would seem to be the logical end to Gillibrand's straw man
 
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carp614

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Is Kirsten Gillibrand's theology correct?

Flanked by abortion rights advocated at the Georgia state house Thursday, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand said that laws banning or restricting abortion are "against Christian faith."

"If you are a person of the Christian faith, one of the tenants of our faith is free will. One of the tenants of our democracy is that we have a separation of church and state, and under no circumstances are we supposed to be imposing our faith on other people. And I think this is an example of that effort," she said at a press conference.​

Kirsten Gillibrand says anti-abortion laws are "against Christian faith" - CBS News

The shear volume of what is wrong with this statement is astonishing. I'm nearly speechless at the ridiculous contradictions in this statement.

I just can't even...
 
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paul1149

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I mean yes, duh, 'free will' is key to human choice'. But that's the whole point, because of free will we can make right choices or wrong choices, meaning we can sin. One of the most important tenants of our faith is that we can abuse free will. And she has.
Yes. It hearkens back to the French Revolution, which was based on the secular Enlightenment. Man is perfectible, and only needs a benign environment to achieve perfection. That revolution started out with a few brief months of euphoria, then quickly descended into the infamous Reign of Terror, the lawlessness and chaos of which led directly to Bonapartism and massive war.

The US Constitution, which founded the most enduring and greatest nation in modern history, has as its guiding principle the Judeo-Christian faith's dualistic revelation of man's nature. Man is made in the image of God, and therefore deserves dignity and civil rights, but he is a sinner and cannot be trusted with unbridled power or freedom. There is a tension between these two aspects at times, which is why we debate our laws, to fine-tune them to satisfy the demands of both and do the most good. But there should be no question that laws are needed. Subjective morality has brought us to the place where men decide what is good or evil depending strictly on their own sentiments, with God increasingly excluded from the conversation. And that is a dangerous place for a nation to be. Gillibrand used to be a middle of the road local New York Democrat. But strange things happen to Democrats who get the gleam of higher office in their eye.
 
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Fantine

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The "Christian faith" is nowhere near as one-dimensional and unilateral as evangelicals would like it to be. There are very progressive denominations, such as the United Church of Christ (of which the Obamas are members), Unitarians, Presbyterians, Episcopals, evangelical Lutherans, others.

Looking online, I've read she and her husband, a venture capitalist, got married in a Catholic Church, but her religion is listed as "Christian..." (If I had to decide which of the Gillibrands were less "Catholic," the pro-choice Kristen or her venture capitalist husband, I would probably go with the husband. While venture capitalists sometimes finance worthwhile projects, they are more involved with buying companies, laying off thousands, cutting the companies up into little pieces (after having borrowed from them to do it somewhere else), and bankrupting the original purchase. Really bad stuff.)

While I disagree with her interpretation of "free will," because that doesn't condone anarchy, I understand that some of the more progressive denominations interpret morality differently. But before you condemn them completely, remember that they are often champions of social justice who are very in tune with the gospel message of Jesus.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Why do Christians, if this Kirsten Gillibrand is correct, advocate anything? If we aren't allowed to impose our standards on anyone (mind you that's just what Christian societies have done over all those they ruled for most of our history), what is there left for the Christian advocate? I suppose we can only advocate policy on secular grounds and I'm kind of tired of this trap they set when it comes to the separation of Church and State, as if we wanted a theocracy, as if when we suggest laws or ideas based on Christianity that all want to live under the Teutonic order or something. The separation of Church and state does not prohibit the influence of Christianity and I think we ought to reject this reasoning as Christians lest we find ourselves with no influence whatsoever. This strict secularism only is poison.

I also find the idea that Christianity is democratic as it's apparently based on there being free-will as fundamentally flawed. We don't tolerate a person's free will when it comes to theft, so why should we tolerate it when it comes to the murder of children in the womb? Our freedom does not legitimize our actions, hence there has always been disciplines for the believer to submit to or to follow themselves in order to be truly free since each of us is a slave to sin. The freedom to abort isn't really freedom, it is slavery to casual sex and promiscuity and lack of responsibility the woman wants no part in for the bad choices she has made.

No, Christianity is not without a say on this issue and no, Christianity will not remain silent on a matter as serious as this.
 
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Calminian

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Just one more example in the growing trend of people who are not Christian (or at least not living by any semblance of Christian principles) telling Christians what it means to be a Christian.

I believe she claims to be a Christian.
 
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Calminian

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The "Christian faith" is nowhere near as one-dimensional and unilateral as evangelicals would like it to be. There are very progressive denominations, such as the United Church of Christ (of which the Obamas are members), Unitarians, Presbyterians, Episcopals, evangelical Lutherans, others.

Looking online, I've read she and her husband, a venture capitalist, got married in a Catholic Church, but her religion is listed as "Christian..." (If I had to decide which of the Gillibrands were less "Catholic," the pro-choice Kristen or her venture capitalist husband, I would probably go with the husband. While venture capitalists sometimes finance worthwhile projects, they are more involved with buying companies, laying off thousands, cutting the companies up into little pieces (after having borrowed from them to do it somewhere else), and bankrupting the original purchase. Really bad stuff.)

While I disagree with her interpretation of "free will," because that doesn't condone anarchy, I understand that some of the more progressive denominations interpret morality differently. But before you condemn them completely, remember that they are often champions of social justice who are very in tune with the gospel message of Jesus.

Social justice? How is permitting and supporting the slaughter of 60 million babies (just in the US, just since 1974) social justice? That's a holocaust 10 times bigger than Hitler's. Most self-described social justice churches are total phonies. They don't know Jesus. They wouldn't have protected him if he were in the womb and needed their help. This passage comes to mind.

Matt. 25:44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’​
 
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Calminian

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Hence the, "or at least not living by any semblance of Christian principals" part of the statement.

They make up their own christian principles. There's an openly gay candidate and his husband lecturing us about marriage. It's a different world.
 
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