Was Augustine the one who created "Calvinism", and why?

BABerean2 · May 21, 2019

Dave L said:
Do you have any conclusions about what scripture says? If so, you have a confession. Only the Ecumenical Creeds withstood the test of time and define Christianity, concluding what the bible says on certain vital topics.

We have already discussed the fact that the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 LBCF do not agree.
Therefore, they do not define Christianity, and cannot be the standard of Biblical truth.

They are no more correct than the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.

What is New Covenant Theology?
Pastor Douglas Goodin

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Dave L · May 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
We have already discussed the fact that the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 LBCF do not agree.
Therefore, they do not define Christianity, and cannot be the standard of Biblical truth.

.

We were talking about free will and sovereignty where both creeds agree. So what's the problem?

Bobber · May 21, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
I have difficulty in understanding how anyone could love a God that is:
Unloving
Unmerciful
Unjust

The opposite of what the bible teaches us about Him.

I've wondered this often about Calvinists. Can they even really and truly love God that is in believing what they do about him. I believe they may fear a God like that BUT....can they really and truly love him? I suspect not. This would be denied by them of course but I think deep down in their hearts they'd know that one shouldn't be punished for things they had no control over or no escape being offered from doing evil.

Dave L · May 21, 2019

Bobber said:
I've wondered this often about Calvinists. Can they even really and truly love God that is in believing what they do about him. I believe they may fear a God like that BUT....can they really and truly love him? I suspect not. This would be denied by them of course but I think deep down in their hearts they'd know that one shouldn't be punished for things they had no control over or no escape being offered from doing evil.

Many if not most hate God today if Calvin was right about him.

Bobber · May 21, 2019

I have difficulty in understanding how anyone could love a God that is:
Unloving
Unmerciful
Unjust

The opposite of what the bible teaches us about Him.

Dave L said:
“And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6)

First you're acknowledging you can't from the natural LOVE a God as you envision him. You seem to be saying everything in how the inner consciousness of man works demands God would have to be more just than a Calvinistic way of thinking as in you don't punish a person who had from birth no options of anything. But you add that God just give you a new heart and therefore EVERYTHING about basic justice and what your conscious knows about right or wrong....that all goes out the window.

But it's never explained by Calvinists how you could ever even understand Commandments in scripture about us loving other people. If LOVE becomes a totally different thing where once in your mind something would be totally unjust, that is God punishing people who were offered no way of escape than what exactly is love now? And how do you obey the commandment to love? It seems like you're like a ship out on the ocean without a rudder.

I believe in your heart you still do not believe the God of the Calvinist paradigm would be just. If you were a member on a jury I believe in your deepest thoughts you'd know a guilty person MUST have options from birth no not commit evil.

Dave L · May 21, 2019

Bobber said:
I have difficulty in understanding how anyone could love a God that is:
Unloving
Unmerciful
Unjust

The opposite of what the bible teaches us about Him.

First you're acknowledging you can't from the natural LOVE a God as you envision him. You seem to be saying everything in how the inner consciousness of man works demands God would have to be more just than a Calvinistic way of thinking as in you don't punish a person who had from birth no options of anything. But you add that God just give you a new heart and therefore EVERYTHING about basic justice and what your conscious knows about right or wrong....that all goes out the window.

But it's never explained by Calvinists how you could ever even understand Commandments in scripture about us loving other people. If LOVE becomes a totally different thing where once in your mind something would be totally unjust, that is God punishing people who were offered no way of escape than what exactly is love now? And how do you obey the commandment to love? It seems like you're like a ship out on the ocean without a rudder.

I believe in your heart you still do not believe the God of the Calvinist paradigm would be just. If you were a member on a jury I believe in your deepest thoughts you'd know a guilty person MUST have options from birth no not commit evil.

I love God in truth as a Calvinist. I loved my idol (idea about God) before. Even though I was saved before I had any exposure to any church.

Bobber · May 21, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
I agree with you.
I'm definitely not calvinistic in any way.
I most probably am not totally Arminian either.
I believe God gave us free will (libertarian free will)to make our own moral choice. This is the only way that we can be held responsible for those choices, by God.

I also believe God did choose some special persons in the bible: Abraham would be one,,,Mary would be another. However, I believe this was done in very rare occasions.

Yes God chose certain ones to carry out certain things. But you'll notice even with Abraham when God makes covenant with him he says, "As for me" Gen 17:4 in other words this is what I'm willing to do....now what about you? And with Mary she received the call by saying, "May it be unto me according to your word". Lk 1:38

Giving birth to the Christ wasn't just put upon her. We see the angel Gabriel said to her, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: Lk 1: 35 It states shall come upon her not that it already had. And in verse 38 it states from Mary , "May it be unto me according to your word" the acknowledgement or the coming into agreement with God to give the go ahead. Nothing forced.

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2019

Bobber said:
I've wondered this often about Calvinists. Can they even really and truly love God that is in believing what they do about him. I believe they may fear a God like that BUT....can they really and truly love him? I suspect not. This would be denied by them of course but I think deep down in their hearts they'd know that one shouldn't be punished for things they had no control over or no escape being offered from doing evil.

Of course, I agree with you.
OTOH, they feel rather proud of themselves for being ABLE to love such a god. They lord it over us poor schmucks who cannot accept such a god. This is pride - a sin that brings to other sins. It also takes away Christian love because it's God that decides who will be saved...so we rejoice that He chose the saved one...and they must learn to accept that others they love may not have been chosen. This could create a hard heart, IMHO.

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2019

Bobber said:
Yes God chose certain ones to carry out certain things. But you'll notice even with Abraham when God makes covenant with him he says, "As for me" Gen 17:4 in other words this is what I'm willing to do....now what about you? And with Mary she received the call by saying, "May it be unto me according to your word". Lk 1:38

Giving birth to the Christ wasn't just put upon her. We see the angel Gabriel said to her, "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: Lk 1: 35 It states shall come upon her not that it already had. And in verse 38 it states from Mary , "May it be unto me according to your word" the acknowledgement or the coming into agreement with God to give the go ahead. Nothing forced.

Forced love is not true love.
Mary had to accept of her own free will...
But God, knowing all things, also knew it would be her to born the child Jesus.

It's really more than our human brain could contemplate...however, just because we do not understand something 100% does not mean that we could make up incorrect doctrine using the mystery that is not understood. We just have to accept what is.

The bible teaches free will and it teaches that WE have the opportunity to save ourselves..it would be unjust NOT to have this opportunity; and God is totally just.
Acts 10:34

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2019

Dave L said:
I love God in truth as a Calvinist. I loved my idol (idea about God) before. Even though I was saved before I had any exposure to any church.

I'm sorry you didn't go to a different church before making up your mind.

In chapter 9 of Romans Paul states that he's so sorry for his Jewish brothers that he wishes HE would be accursed instead of THEM because he loves them so much and desires to see them saved.

Seems to me like Paul loved his fellow humans more than God does.

Bobber · May 21, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Of course, I agree with you.
OTOH, they feel rather proud of themselves for being ABLE to love such a god. They lord it over us poor schmucks who cannot accept such a god.

I agree. And another thing that makes me wonder. Anybody that knows anything about psychology knows that your perceptions of truth sway you into a certain way of thinking. If they believe God doesn't LOVE all as they would call them the non-elect then I think it's hard for them to consider anybody outside of themselves have any real value. What one doesn't consider as having any value they don't treat very well nor would they show much love or show much patience to such individuals. So how could they truly love their enemies as Jesus instructed in Matt 5:44.

"...and they must learn to accept that others they love may not have been chosen. This could create a hard heart, IMHO.

And what a tragedy that someone would become offended at God based on something that was a delusion to begin with that God didn't want their loved one saved. To become offended at God over things which are true is one thing but to become such over something that was a lie anyway....quite sad.

Bobber · May 21, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
I'm sorry you didn't go to a different church before making up your mind.

In chapter 9 of Romans Paul states that he's so sorry for his Jewish brothers that he wishes HE would be accursed instead of THEM because he loves them so much and desires to see them saved.

Seems to me like Paul loved his fellow humans more than God does.

And that's something I think Calvinists would like to say to Paul, something like, "Now dear brother! You've got to stop that way of thinking! If God wanted you saved he wanted you saved and you've got to accept that! It's almost like you're questioning God who should be saved! Who are you to question God or seeking to have God's will not done!"

GodsGrace101 · May 21, 2019

Bobber said:
I agree. And another thing that makes me wonder. Anybody that knows anything about psychology knows that your perceptions of truth sway you into a certain way of thinking. If they believe God doesn't LOVE all as they would call them the non-elect then I think it's hard for them to consider anybody outside of themselves have any real value. What one doesn't consider as having any value they don't treat very well nor would they show much love or show much patience to such individuals. So how could they truly love their enemies as Jesus instructed in Matt 5:44.

And what a tragedy that someone would become offended at God based on something that was a delusion to begin with that God didn't want their loved one saved. To become offended at God over things which are true is one thing but to become such over something that was a lie anyway....quite sad.

Amen to all.
I particularly agree with the first paragraph.

BABerean2 · May 21, 2019

Dave L said:
We were talking about free will and sovereignty where both creeds agree. So what's the problem?

They both also claim we are under the 4th commandment, by ignoring what Paul said in Colossians 2:16-17.

Why would we use either as a source of truth?
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BABerean2 · May 23, 2019

GodsGrace101 · May 24, 2019

Dave L said:
I love God in truth as a Calvinist. I loved my idol (idea about God) before. Even though I was saved before I had any exposure to any church.

Your idol is the true God.
Return to HIM.

trulytheone · Jun 13, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Forced love is not true love.
Mary had to accept of her own free will...
But God, knowing all things, also knew it would be her to born the child Jesus.

It's really more than our human brain could contemplate...however, just because we do not understand something 100% does not mean that we could make up incorrect doctrine using the mystery that is not understood. We just have to accept what is.

The bible teaches free will and it teaches that WE have the opportunity to save ourselves..it would be unjust NOT to have this opportunity; and God is totally just.
Acts 10:34

The Augustinian doctrine of predestination does not abandon free will. In fact, what the Graces of God do to the elect is "convince" them to abide in Him in His Righteousness without damaging their free will.

And, in my view, God's Graces can always find man, no matter in what disposition he freely-willed himself into, because there is always a Grace that is harmonious to a specific disposition of man. So man is without excuse because, if the Graces given to him weren't congruent to his disposition, he could have chosen another disposition that is congruent to the Graces given. At the same time, God could have saved man in any disposition he is in because, if the Graces given to man weren't congruent to his freely-willed disposition, other Graces congruent to it could have been given.

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2019

trulytheone said:
The Augustinian doctrine of predestination does not abandon free will.

What has come to be known as "Calvinism" came from Augustine's attempt to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Since the child had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child.

These facts are confirmed by Dr. Ken Wilson's research on the writings of Augustine, which is found in the link below.

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trulytheone · Jun 13, 2019

BABerean2 said:
What has come to be known as "Calvinism" came from Augustine's attempt to explain how infants could become the "elect" through water baptism. Since the child had not come to faith, it must be based on the will of another. It could have nothing to do with the will of the child.

These facts are confirmed by Dr. Ken Wilson's research on the writings of Augustine, which is found in the link below.

.

St. Siricius, Bishop of Rome and a contemporary of St. Augustine, issued this letter a year before Augustine's conversion. The belief that infants must be delivered through baptism did not originate from St. Augustine:

But just as we say that sacred Paschal reverence in no way ought to be diminished, so we wish for the waters of sacred baptism to be of assistance with all speed to infants, who because of age are not yet able to speak, and to those for whom in any emergency it is needed, lest the destruction of our souls be at stake if, the salutary font being denied to those seeking it, someone departing from the world loses both the kingdom and life.
History & Apologetics: Letter of Pope Siricius to Bishop Himerius of Tarragona

Saint Augustine was only attempting to give a coherent explanation of the infants' reception of Grace in baptism and the lost of eternal life if they died before baptism. And it seems that the reason for their salvation and lost of eternal life resides in God's inscrutable decree. Hence, the doctrine of Grace and Predestination prior to future actions were developed.

BABerean2 · Jun 13, 2019

trulytheone said:
Saint Augustine was only attempting to give a coherent explanation of the infants' reception of Grace in baptism and the lost of eternal life if they died before baptism. And it seems that the reason for their salvation and lost of eternal life resides in God's inscrutable decree.

Augustine was attempting to explain what is not found in the New Testament.

Based on Luke 3:16, and Acts of the Apostles 11:15-16, and Romans 8:9, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, the most important thing about the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water.

In John chapter 3 Jesus said a person must be "born-again" of the Spirit of God in order to inherit the kingdom of God.

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Was Augustine the one who created "Calvinism", and why?

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