Discussion Theological theory Vs Faith

K2K · May 19, 2019

Akita Suggagaki said:
Do you know of the great commandment?

A scribe walked up to Jesus and asked Him what the foremost command was - So what was the answer?

"Hear O Israel" was the answer - there was more to it, but that is the foremost command

Jesus also said, "The Lord you God is One"

That of course is not a command but a reality.

Jesus also said "And you shall love the Lord with all your...."

That is a conclusion

So now, we get back to our Theology and His thinking. Our Theology is our understanding of God. We all have our thinking, or Theology about Him. It is our understanding. But we are not supposed to lean on that. We are supposed to lean on our faith in Him. That is to say we believe that He is!

If we believe the Great I Am is, and we follow the foremost command to hear Him, then we will seek Him, find Him (because it is written that all who seek find) listen to Him, and do what He asks of us. In that was we are not depending on our Theology/understanding of God, but rather our faith that God is there so that we can hear from Him.

Of another way to put it is: Our Theology is our faith!

Brotherly Spirit · May 19, 2019

Alithis said:
No scripture which is not actioned forwards in a persons life amounts to anything but useless amassed knowledge about a theory.
It is true we are all to grow up into maturity..
But no baby matures into childhood ,teenage hood or adult hood if it is placed in a cot and bottle fed and encouraged to try nothing .eqipped to try nothing .it learns nothing and remains a baby.
That is why many congragations are membered by 10 yr 2o yr old people in spiritual daipers crying for thier bottle to please and appease them
Unwilling OR unequppied to die to thier own lives thier own agenda thier own ambitions and Go out to seek Gods will for his body.

One of the most ludicrous arguments is when some use the "parts of the body" as excuse to not do the will of the head...
It does not matter what function an eye has..or a foot has.in its function it will preform it in UNITY with the whole body to do the will of the head( being christ alone)
Any notion that the function of a single part is seperated from the over all will of the head is to be ridiculed.for such a body would be spastic...

In short any part of the body that excuses itself from desiring and doing the one thing JESUS came to do (save the lost) care more for its own ends then Christs and does not have the love of God in them. They are lovers of self ... As is foretold of these last days.
Much Repentance is required .

Any branch that does not bear fruit (multiplication of the vine) will be Cut off and cast into the fire.

It is the undeniable will of God for all the body to be fully involved in the great commision
And All can be ..the lord JESUS is for us and has sent the HELPER .so we really have no excuse.
Any believer reading this can repent of thier inactivity and unfruitfullness and God will flood them with help to do his wilwill.h

Basically practice what you believe? I agree if we're not actively living in pursuit of Jesus as our Lord and Savior, then all the seeking we did spiritually is dead. But considering people's circumstances and personal callings, having faith moved in the Spirit will lead people different places and times as needed.

As for theological theory, you believe the Gospel and Jesus are enough or central being of greater importance for the faith of the Holy Spirit (active and fruitful)?

Alithis · May 19, 2019

Strong in Him said:
I was replying to each of your statements, especially those I disagreed with.

But there's probably no point talking about this any more, so I'll leave you to chat with others.

Thats notable..the points you disagree with -are just quoting what the lotd Jesus told his disciples to do.... Its not me your disagreeing with .

Strong in Him · May 19, 2019

Alithis said:
Thats notable..the points you disagree with -are just quoting what the lotd Jesus told his disciples to do.... Its not me your disagreeing with .

It's your interpretation I'm disagreeing with.

Alithis · May 19, 2019

Brotherly Spirit said:
Basically practice what you believe? I agree if we're not actively living in pursuit of Jesus as our Lord and Savior, then all the seeking we did spiritually is dead. But considering people's circumstances and personal callings, having faith moved in the Spirit will lead people different places and times as needed.

As for theological theory, you believe the Gospel and Jesus are enough or central being of greater importance for the faith of the Holy Spirit (active and fruitful)?

Mostly when people use the term "personal calling" what are they refering to ? Are they a single cell doing thier own thing and not a part of Christs body.. Its just more self excusing.
The lord Jesus makes his will for all his disciples very clear.

Yes- JESUS is central and the Gospel is the power of God to save all that believe
Faith and the holy Spirit are not a seperate thing.
It is by his Spirit ( the helper) that we are are empowered to obey JESUS.
Sadly many exercise greater faith in thier fears then in JESUS .
Such is to be overcome..not overcome by.
Every believer can overcome if the have recieved the holy Spirit.
Because IF they have recieved the Holy Spirit then they have recieved the same Holy Spirit that the apostles recieved.
"The same holy Spirit that rose Christ from the dead dwells in you."...
All the promises are therefore -Yes...
But it is by Unbelief that promises are not entered into.
And unbelief always fills its mind with excuses and self justifications.
Unbelief is to be repented of.

Alithis · May 19, 2019

Strong in Him said:
It's your interpretation I'm disagreeing with.

there is no interpretation required.
What Jesus said..he meant.

Akita Suggagaki · May 19, 2019

K2K said:
Jesus also said "And you shall love the Lord with all your...."

Yes, but especially:In John 13:34 Jesus taught, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

Alithis · May 20, 2019

Akita Suggagaki said:
Yes, but especially:In John 13:34 Jesus taught, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

This can only be done by a heart that first loves God with all

Strong in Him · May 21, 2019

Alithis said:
there is no interpretation required.
What Jesus said..he meant.

What Paul said, he meant.
Not ALL are given gifts of miracles and healing.

Alithis · May 21, 2019

Strong in Him said:
What Paul said, he meant.
Not ALL are given gifts of miracles and healing.

And yet he also says to earnestly desire all of them
And Jesus says what so ever you ask in my name you shall have.
The gifts are for both the edifying of the body AND unto the work of the Gospel.
To just say oh i dont have to do the work of the gospel because God didnt give me any gifts amounts to not believing JESUS when he said ASK ....

You cant just take 1 verse. Paul is speaking in the setting of a gathering... And within that gathering the holy spirit moves eg. Bill to prophecy and Susan to bring a word of wisdom...
But the next time they gather he may cause Dave to bring a word of wisdom and Susan to prophesy.. Because HE gives and moves through who he chooses if they are of contrite open and willing heart.
Its not about this one person can do that and that person cannot.
The same Holy Spirit can do all the gifts through whom ever asks believes and so recieves and does.. I.e . to whomsover believes they shall have what so ever they ask...
God is faithful to all his word.

The reason a person does not get things God has promised has always been the same
- they entered not into the promises because of thier unbelief.

The love of God unceasingly draws us into his promises he desires us all to have them he is not a respecter of persons .
If we respond to his love by our obedience through faith .he delights in us.
But those who draw back are not delighted in

Strong in Him · May 21, 2019

Alithis said:
And yet he also says to earnestly desire all of them

We can earnestly desire all of them; it doesn't mean we'll be given all of them.

If every believer was supposed to perform miraculous signs and healings, every believer would have that gift; automatically, and EVERY sick person would be healed.

Alithis said:
And Jesus says what so ever you ask in my name you shall have.

You can't make a doctrine by putting two, out of context, verses together. That's like saying, Judas went and hanged himself and Jesus said "go and do likewise" - so God approves of suicide.

Alithis said:
The gifts are for both the edifying of the body AND unto the work of the Gospel.

If miraculous signs were to automatically follow the proclamation of the Gospel, to confirm and testify to it; it wouldn't require a special gift - God would just do it. The signs would be GOD confirming to non believers that the Gospel was true. They would be as natural, and automatic, as day following night.

Alithis said:
To just say oh i dont have to do the work of the gospel because God didnt give me any gifts amounts to not believing JESUS when he said ASK ....

Who says that?
Personally, I preach the Gospel and I serve God using gifts he has given me. I am certain that many other Christians serve God as called to, using the particular gifts they have been given.

To be continued.

Strong in Him · May 21, 2019

Continued.

Alithis said:
You cant just take 1 verse. Paul is soeaking in the setting of a gathering... And within that gathering the holy spirit moves bill to prophecy and susan to bring a word of wisdom...
But the next time they gather he may cause dave tobrong a word of wisdom and susan to prophesy.. Because HE gives and moves through who he chooses if they are of contrire open and willing heart.

I'm not disputing that; he can also heal through one person one day, and then not use that person in healing again but give them gifts of prophesy, teaching or a word of knowledge.

But that's not the same as saying that Jesus commanded us to heal the sick. If it was a command that HAD to be obeyed by everyone, ALL believers would have gifts of healing.
There are different ways of healing the sick in any case - being involved in medicine or counselling are part of that.

No doubt this will count as another "excuse", in your eyes.

Alithis said:
The reason a person does not get things God jas promised has alseaus been the same
- they entered not into the promises because of thier unbelief.

Again, you're quoting part of another Scripture, out of context, and trying to apply it wrongly.
If miraculous signs are supposed to follow the proclamation of the Gospel, which it seems that you think that is what Mark 16:9-20 is about; it's got nothing to do with faith, gifts or OUR efforts. If the Lord affirms the Gospel with signs and wonders; that's what he does. If signs are confirmation for non believers; that's what they are, and they do not rest on the faith, or gifts, of believers.
God is not dependant on OUR will, OUR faith, OUR willingness to receive etc. Jesus didn't always ask people if they had faith. On one occasion he met a man who said "IF you can, make my Son well", and he did.
He met Jairus and his wife, who laughed at him when he said their daughter was sleeping - he still raised her.

~Zao~ · May 21, 2019

Healing is just answered prayer ... anyone can learn how to pray.

nanookadenord · May 21, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Continued.

I'm not disputing that; he can also heal through one person one day, and then not use that person in healing again but give them gifts of prophesy, teaching or a word of knowledge.

But that's not the same as saying that Jesus commanded us to heal the sick. If it was a command that HAD to be obeyed by everyone, ALL believers would have gifts of healing.
There are different ways of healing the sick in any case - being involved in medicine or counselling are part of that.

No doubt this will count as another "excuse", in your eyes.

Again, you're quoting part of another Scripture, out of context, and trying to apply it wrongly.
If miraculous signs are supposed to follow the proclamation of the Gospel, which it seems that you think that is what Mark 16:9-20 is about; it's got nothing to do with faith, gifts or OUR efforts. If the Lord affirms the Gospel with signs and wonders; that's what he does. If signs are confirmation for non believers; that's what they are, and they do not rest on the faith, or gifts, of believers.
God is not dependant on OUR will, OUR faith, OUR willingness to receive etc. Jesus didn't always ask people if they had faith. On one occasion he met a man who said "IF you can, make my Son well", and he did.
He met Jairus and his wife, who laughed at him when he said their daughter was sleeping - he still raised her.

Kinda like me as an EMT. I don't heal supernaturally, I help people on the way to healing through medicine. I even helped bring someone back to life using CPR and an automatic defibrillator.

mourningdove~ · May 21, 2019

Strong in Him said:
We can earnestly desire all of them; it doesn't mean we'll be given all of them. ...

Yes. I agree.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 ...

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,
to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits,
to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
But one and the same Spirit works all these things,
distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Brotherly Spirit · May 22, 2019

Alithis said:
Mostly when people use the term "personal calling" what are they refering to ? Are they a single cell doing thier own thing and not a part of Christs body.. Its just more self excusing.
The lord Jesus makes his will for all his disciples very clear.

Yes- JESUS is central and the Gospel is the power of God to save all that believe
Faith and the holy Spirit are not a seperate thing.
It is by his Spirit ( the helper) that we are are empowered to obey JESUS.
Sadly many exercise greater faith in thier fears then in JESUS .
Such is to be overcome..not overcome by.
Every believer can overcome if the have recieved the holy Spirit.
Because IF they have recieved the Holy Spirit then they have recieved the same Holy Spirit that the apostles recieved.
"The same holy Spirit that rose Christ from the dead dwells in you."...
All the promises are therefore -Yes...
But it is by Unbelief that promises are not entered into.
And unbelief always fills its mind with excuses and self justifications.
Unbelief is to be repented of.

I don't disagree about people making excuses. It's easier to do less or nothing if we believe we're justified. But I think it depends on the person and their circumstances too. If a person has a certain gift and lacks others, he or she would be more serving with that one gift. Especially if the circumstances are favorable for that one gift above others. Except if those other gifts are needed more in serving the Lord, and there's a lack of other people serving with those gifts.

It's not easy to judge where people are personally in their lives. Mostly it's best to focus on your own service as you believe according to Jesus. When a certain person you know well is needing advice or help, you offer more of what's believed to him or her. Generally we should try to be merciful discerning people and their maturity in walking with God.

Alithis · May 22, 2019

Alithis · May 22, 2019

Brotherly Spirit said:
I don't disagree about people making excuses. It's easier to do less or nothing if we believe we're justified. But I think it depends on the person and their circumstances too. If a person has a certain gift and lacks others, he or she would be more serving with that one gift. Especially if the circumstances are favorable for that one gift above others. Except if those other gifts are needed more in serving the Lord, and there's a lack of other people serving with those gifts.

It's not easy to judge where people are personally in their lives. Mostly it's best to focus on your own service as you believe according to Jesus. When a certain person you know well is needing advice or help, you offer more of what's believed to him or her. Generally we should try to be merciful discerning people and their maturity in walking with God.

Interestingly Paul admonishes quite the opposite be done...
The worst thing we can do is pander to carnal minded sensitivities .
It does not aid them at all to walk in obedience but only to continue in inactive faith.
Oh sure they can be busy doing nice things.
But so do millions of people outside churches .such things do not require faith and without faith it is impossible to please God.

Alithis · May 22, 2019

mourningdove~ said:
Yes. I agree.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 ...

There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit,
to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits,
to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
But one and the same Spirit works all these things,
distributing to each one individually as He wills.

distributing to each one individually as He wills...... Which means any where any time .. He gives to those that ask and do not doubt in thier hearts. Its not an exclusive club .
When we earnestly desire. We ask
When we ask we recieve what so ever we ask as we ask according to his will.
If we ask for the wrong motives we wont get ( ref James) but when we ask in him we shall have what so ever we ask if we do not doubt.

You see this is where theological theory and faith have divided. So many people accept an intellectual concept about what Jesus said..
But so few believe it.
They say they do but Then they prove they Do not by thier refusal to Act on what he said.

Alithis · May 22, 2019

LoreneDD said:
Healing is just answered prayer ... anyone can learn how to pray.

i find it intriguing that the Lord Jesus never told us to ASK him(pray means to earnestly ask) to heal the sick... But rather told us to Do it... " In his name " .
To be in his name is to be abiding in lead by motivated from the Holy Spirit within us. And since he never leaves us we must be ever learning to obey him ... Healing is the easiest of things the lord has told us to do.

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