Islam Do Not Bash Muslims

JosephZ · May 19, 2019

Joyousperson said:
As I had mentioned the ideology of Islam contains loads of evil and violent elements directed against non-Muslims to the extreme of killing non-muslims because they disbelieved.
This is evident by thousands of those who killed millions of non-Muslims quoting verses from the Quran and the Ahadiths.

There have been somewhere around 200,000 people killed in terrorist attacks in the past 50 years by all terrorists of all ideologies. Where do you get the idea that thousands of Muslims have killed millions of non-Muslims while quoting verses from the Qur'an and hadiths?

Joyousperson said:
Show me 5 [if not one] verses that is positive and compassionate towards all non-believers [the kafir, kuffar, infidels] that is unconditional and unabrogated in the Quran? Note my emphasis, unconditional and unabrogated.

Note the contrast in Christianity where there is a overriding pacifist maxim of loving all even one's enemies, love one's neighbor, give the other cheek, and the likes. Is there any one verse in the Quran that is similar to the Christian's love of non-Christians in the NT.

Joyousperson said:
You are bulls...g and lying.
Where in the Quran did Allah command Muslims to love all including their enemies.
The covenanted terms of the Quran contains loads of evil and violent elements directed antagonistically against the non-Muslims

I provided this already. You have to go to the links I provided in my earlier post and you will find what you are looking for. In particular would be the link to the open letter to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi the leader of ISIS.

JosephZ said:
"[ISIS] have nothing to do with Islam and its principles that call for justice, kindness, fairness, freedom of faith and coexistence.” -- Iyad Ameen Madani, the Secretary General for the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, the group representing 57 countries, and 1.4 billion Muslims.

Nearly 70,000 clerics came together and passed a fatwa against terrorist organizations, including IS, Taliban and and al-Qaida. These are “not Islamic organizations,” adding that the members of these outfits were “not Muslims”.

“It is written in the Quran that killing one innocent person is equivalent to killing all humanity,” said Mohammed Ehsan Raza Khan

From an open letter to the leader of ISIS signed by more than 150 Islamic scholars and clerics (PDF):

It is forbidden in Islam to kill the innocent.

It is forbidden in Islam to kill emissaries, ambassadors, and diplomats; hence it is forbidden to kill journalists and aid workers.

It is forbidden in Islam to harm or mistreat—in any way—Christians or any ‘People of the Scripture’.

It is forbidden in Islam to force people to convert.

It is forbidden in Islam to torture people.

It is forbidden in Islam to disfigure the dead.

It is forbidden in Islam to attribute evil acts to God

JosephZ · May 19, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Did you not read my post carefully? Here it is again!

I have done my own analysis which is 55% [3400 verses] with reference to specific verses.
Here is one done by Bill Warner who claim it is 64% in terms of paragraphs not verses.
Kafir | CSPI
Kafir in the Quran- Meccan
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/TrilogyStats/Koran/Kafir_in_Koran.pdf
Kafir in Quran - Medina
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/TrilogyStats/Koran/Kafir_in_Koran.pdf

What you have provided is your opinion with the backing of a well known anti-Islamic propagandists. There is no serious research that has ever came to the conclusions in your post. As someone who has actually read the Qur'an, I can say with 100% certainty that those percentages are outrageous.

I went to the link you provided and now I see where the basis for your argument is coming from. Just about everything you are saying here can be found on Bill Warner's website. When I read his bio, this is what I found:

Bill Warner holds a PhD in physics & applied mathematics from North Carolina State University. He has been a research scientist at the Sarnoff Princeton Labs, a business owner of an energy efficiency company and a university professor.

The fact that Bill Warner has no background in Islam is also mentioned in this article: Anti-Muslim crusaders make millions spreading fear

Your knowledge of Islam is coming from someone who has absolutely no background in religion or Islamic studies. A physics and math professor isn't your best option for an education on Islam.

I have provided you links where you can read the remarks of literally thousands of Islamic scholars and clerics that have spent their entire lives studying Islam. They all disagree with what you are saying here.

Why would you take the words of a professor of physics and mathematics on what Islam teaches over that of Islamic scholars?

Here is something for you to really think about. There is only a tiny minority in Islam who interpret the Qur'an in the way you describe here, and then you have non-Muslims like Bill Warner with no background in religious or Islamic studies trying to tell the world, including the vast majority of Muslims, that a terrorist group (ISIS) is right.

Does this even sound logical to you?

Joyousperson said:
Note many of the verses involving killing with conditions are abrogated with hatred and a call for violent jihad against non-Muslims for being disbelievers.. Note the quote directly from i.S.I.S I posted earlier.

Once again, ISIS is a terrorist group. Who cares what they have to say about anything?

If you would like to get a good understanding on the basics of Islam from a Christian point of view, I would like to suggest this course for you: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

I think it would be very beneficial and it will also clear up many of the misconceptions you have about Islam, it's history, and what it teaches.

Tony Bristow-Stagg · May 19, 2019

Joyousperson said:
In any discussion of Islamic based evil and violent acts, we must differentiate the Muslims as human beings from the ideology of Islam [as ideas and beliefs]

What we need to do is understand that Muhammad and the Quran are from God and they teach love, peace and justice.

We also need to consider that all people can make the wrong choices and is not limited to one race of people, or one faith.

Thus we must differentiate between the wrong choices made by people and the God given Truth, in all the Holy Books.

Regards Tony

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

JosephZ said:
There have been somewhere around 200,000 people killed in terrorist attacks in the past 50 years by all terrorists of all ideologies. Where do you get the idea that thousands of Muslims have killed millions of non-Muslims while quoting verses from the Qur'an and hadiths?

Why 50 years and not the whole of the 1400 history of Islam so we can understand the underlying evil ethos that is prevailing strongly within Islam that is a threat to humanity in the future till eternity?

Note the 80 million killed in Islam's 1000 years occupation of India and the overall total is more likely to be more than 100 million killed in the name of Islam in relation to other reasons. Note the ideology of Islam is a way of life for all Muslims, thus ALL* acts of evil and violence by Muslims are traceable to Islam.
* except by Muslims with very serious mental illness like schizophrenia and the likes.

In addition, note the evil and violence is not restricted to terrorism [the notable one] but extent to a whole gamut and range of evil acts, e.g. rapes, infringing on the basic human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religions, other oppresion of non-Muslims. In addition, Islam in inherently misogynistic.

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

JosephZ said:
I provided this already. You have to go to the links I provided in my earlier post and you will find what you are looking for. In particular would be the link to the open letter to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi the leader of ISIS.

Those are statements but not supported by verses from the Quran.

Even in other cases where verses from the Quran are picked to justify Islam is peaceful, those verses are cherry-picked not in the context of the whole Quran and ethos of Islam.
All these stand-alone verse are abrogated by later verses which are evil and violent.

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
What we need to do is understand that Muhammad and the Quran are from God and they teach love, peace and justice.

It is obvious your have not read the Quran thoroughly.
The Quran did teach love [rare] peace and justice, but these aspects are only applicable to Muslims only.

We also need to consider that all people can make the wrong choices and is not limited to one race of people, or one faith.

Thus we must differentiate between the wrong choices made by people and the God given Truth, in all the Holy Books.

Regards Tony

Agree, but the question is whether the acts by a Christian, Muslim or Buddhist is condoned by the religion itself?
I think you got the wrong belief that ALL religions are supposed to be peaceful.
The exception is, Islam is not a peaceful religion as supported by evidences from the Quran.
Note the links I provided in the above posts re 3400++ or 55% of the 6236 verses in the Quran are antagonistic to non-Muslims, the infidels.

The truth is in Islam and in the Quran, i.e. the words of Allah and the final authority of Islam condoned the killing of non-Muslims with very vague definition of a threat to Islam.
This is why Muslims who killed innocent non-Muslims are justifying their acts with verses from the Quran and Ahadiths as their divine duty to please Allah so as to ensure themselves of a passage to paradise with eternal life.

This is why I stated we should not blame the Muslims directly and primarily for those evil acts they committed but we should trace the root cause to the religion of Islam itself.

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

JosephZ said:
What you have provided is your opinion with the backing of a well known anti-Islamic propagandists. There is no serious research that has ever came to the conclusions in your post. As someone who has actually read the Qur'an, I can say with 100% certainty that those percentages are outrageous.

I went to the link you provided and now I see where the basis for your argument is coming from. Just about everything you are saying here can be found on Bill Warner's website. When I read his bio, this is what I found:

Bill Warner holds a PhD in physics & applied mathematics from North Carolina State University. He has been a research scientist at the Sarnoff Princeton Labs, a business owner of an energy efficiency company and a university professor.

The fact that Bill Warner has no background in Islam is also mentioned in this article: Anti-Muslim crusaders make millions spreading fear

Your knowledge of Islam is coming from someone who has absolutely no background in religion or Islamic studies. A physics and math professor isn't your best option for an education on Islam.

I have provided you links where you can read the remarks of literally thousands of Islamic scholars and clerics that have spent their entire lives studying Islam. They all disagree with what you are saying here.

Why would you take the words of a professor of physics and mathematics on what Islam teaches over that of Islamic scholars?

What I have posted may be similar to Bill Warner's because both of us are researching and concluding on the same objective truth on Islam.
I did my own research, note I stated my own research indicated 55% while Bill Warner concluded 64%.
I don't have my researched references online, that is why I chose Bill Warner's reference as a matter of convenience.
All those who critiqued Islam objectively will arrive at the similar views of the inherent evil and violence within Islam. This is like Science's objectivity, where who ever test an accepted scientific theory, they are expected to achieve the same results.

Just don't take Bill Warner's words, rather read the evidence i.e. the full list of verses provided to justify his 64%.
Warner's approach included relevant and related verses, whereas I only picked verses where the term infidel [kafir] is mentioned or implied in the pronouns.

Here is something for you to really think about. There is only a tiny minority in Islam who interpret the Qur'an in the way you describe here, and then you have non-Muslims like Bill Warner with no background in religious or Islamic studies trying to tell the world, including the vast majority of Muslims, that a terrorist group (ISIS) is right.

Does this even sound logical to you?

Btw, Bill Warner spent years researching Islam and he as a scientist is very objective in his approach just like his research in Science.

Bill Warner has given supporting evidence [not his own] to justify 64% or 3991 of the 6236 verses in the Quran are about the non-Muslim infidels, the kafir, kuffar.
This is very objective.

This is very telling, i.e. why is Islam claimed as a supposedly peaceful religion has 3400++ verses or 55% in the Quran [Pickthall] that are antagonistic to non-Muslims???

Note the first 14 verses of the the 3400++ verses that I had termed as antagonistic and negative to non-Muslims;
Read them very slowly and carefully and note the intense hatred Allah has for non-believers merely because they disbelieve;
Note the below is not in context of war or defense but a general introduction to the inherent ethos of hate within Islam;

001.005-7 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.
Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

002.006 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.
002.007 Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
002.008 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
002.009 They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
002.010 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
002.011 And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.
002.012 Are not they indeed the mischief-makers ? But they perceive not.
002.013 And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe ? are not they indeed the foolish ? But they know not.
002.014 And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.
002.015 Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.
002.016 These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.
002.017 Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,
002.018 Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not.
002.019 Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of death, Allah encompasseth the disbelievers (in His guidance, His omniscience and His omnipotence).
002.020 The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things.

Note the above are only 15 verses, there are 3385 verses more in the Quran which are of worst hatred than the above!
Would you insist the above are peaceful verses to non-Muslim?
Would you insist the above are words of a kind, merciful, and compassionate God. Note these verses in contrast to the words of Jesus in the Gospels.

The point is if one's God who is holding one life by the thread, hates non-believers, it is very natural for the believers to hate the non-believers as well.

Why the majority of Muslims are good and friendly to non-Muslims is because they do not read the Quran and if they do read they do not note the above verses mindfully.

Since you are so insistent and adamant, I suggest you read all the 3400 verses which has the term kafir or kuffar either directly or via pronouns. Note if there is anything positive at all, they are abrogated by later verses chronologically.

A peaceful religion should spent 100% [if not 95%] teaching its believers to be peaceful. Note Buddhism. In Christianity, it is capped off with an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love all, even enemies.

If you do not agree with Warner, provide your counter arguments objectively instead of making wild and sweeping statements.

All those who critique Islam objective will arrive at the similar views on the evil and violence of Islam.

Once again, ISIS is a terrorist group. Who cares what they have to say about anything?

The emphasis is not on I.S.I.S but the ideology of Islam which I.S.I.S is relying on to justify their evil and violent acts. This meant the inherent ideology of Islam can be relied upon by any other Muslims to commit evil and violence.

If you would like to get a good understanding on the basics of Islam from a Christian point of view, I would like to suggest this course for you: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

I think it would be very beneficial and it will also clear up many of the misconceptions you have about Islam, it's history, and what it teaches.

I will have a look, but I don't think painting white over a permanent black surface will get rid of the blackness.

Tony Bristow-Stagg · May 19, 2019

Joyousperson said:
It is obvious your have not read the Quran thoroughly.
The Quran did teach love [rare] peace and justice, but these aspects are only applicable to Muslims only.

The Bible is also a violent read.

Depends how you look at it and as to what it is offering.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg · May 19, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Agree, but the question is whether the acts by a Christian, Muslim or Buddhist is condoned by the religion itself?

Love, Peace and Justice is offered by all the religious scriptures.

The Old Testament and Quran are more strongly worded in Justice, but the New Testamemt contains those same warnings.

Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

Regards Tony

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

JosephZ said:
If you would like to get a good understanding on the basics of Islam from a Christian point of view, I would like to suggest this course for you: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary

I think it would be very beneficial and it will also clear up many of the misconceptions you have about Islam, it's history, and what it teaches.

I checked the site but there are no details except a video from the lecturer.

He admitted he does not know Islam fully.
Rather what he knows of Islam is from what he had learned from Muslims.

The point is within the majority of Muslims, i.e. the moderates do not read the Quran thoroughy and fully but rather they naturally focus on what is positive to themselves.

The moderate Muslims will not give attention to the 3400++ verses that are antagonistic to non-believers.
Most do not read the Quran if they did I don't believe they will focus on the 15 verses of hatred from Allah out of the 3400+ verses I listed above.

Where the moderates come across the violent verses they with deflect it away with all sorts of excuses due to cognitive dissonances and they will apply confirmation bias.

Instead to deflecting and relying on third parties' views, I had suggested you must research the Quran and Islam objectively with independence on your own. Third parties should only be used a support to your own research.

I agree there are peaceful, moral, and non-violent elements in the Quran but these are specifically and confined to only Muslims not non-Muslims.

As for non-Muslim there is an overall ethos of hate, evil and violence directed at non-Muslims because they are disbelievers thus a potential threat to Islam.

Note I have given you an intro with 15 verses of hatred from Allah.
I suggest you suspend what present judgment you at present for a moment and follow this hateful trend within throughout the whole of the Quran objectively. See what you come up with.
Then you can note their relation to the other positive aspects of peace, etc. which are confined and reserved for Muslims only.

As a Christian you are presumed to be honest, I am proposing you exercise some intellectual honesty via your own effort in this task.

Joyousperson · May 19, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
The Bible is also a violent read.
Depends how you look at it and as to what it is offering.
Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Love, Peace and Justice is offered by all the religious scriptures.

The Old Testament and Quran are more strongly worded in Justice, but the New Testamemt contains those same warnings.

Is The Bible More Violent Than The Quran?

Regards Tony

It is a fact, based on verses there are more violent elements in the whole Bible, especially in the OT than in the Quran.

Note a Jew, Christian, or Muslim is one person who had entered into a relationship with God via a covenant [divine contract] to comply with the covenanted terms.

The OT is related to the Torah wherein the covenanted terms are stipulated for the Jew to comply with.
It is argued by Jews and others, the violent elements in the Torah are purely stories of the past to be heeded and do not represent the eternal doctrines in principles.
In addition, there is the Ten Commandments in the Torah which should act as an overriding maxim to ensure no Jews are to kill any other humans.
Therefore the Jews are covenanted not to kill any other humans.

In Christianity, there is an overriding pacifist maxim that command Christians to love all, even enemies, neighbor and to give the other cheek, and the likes.
In the case, the final term is Christians are covenanted to love all, even enemies and not to kill other humans.
Note my thread re Who is a Christian?

But Islam is different.
Allah in the Quran [perfected, immutable 5:3] permit Muslims to kill non-Muslims under the most vague definition of threat to Islam. This is why Muslims had formed mob that killed innocent non-Muslims all over the world just because cartoons!!! of Muhammad were drawn.
There is no overriding pacifist maxim in the Quran to stop Muslims from killing non-Muslims. Instead those who kill non-Muslims as permitted are well rewarded in paradise.

The overall ethos of Islam is that of hatred for non-Muslims and Allah permit they be killed if the religion is threatened [conditions are very vague]. Note the 15 leading verses of hate from the Quran l listed above.
Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims

Islam is thus not a peaceful religion as justified objectively by the evil and violent laden verses in the Quran that inspire and influence SOME Muslim to go on a killing spree as a divine duty to please their God.

Where there are positive elements of peace, moral, rituals, doctrines, etc. within the Quran, they are reserved and confined to Muslims only.

It would appear you are very misinformed to the ethos of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Objectively, Islam is the only mainstream religion that is inherently evil and violent.

Tony Bristow-Stagg · May 20, 2019

Joyousperson said:
But Islam is different.

I do not see that it is. There is a clear Covenant aspects such as there is 'No compulsion in Religion. There is clear guidance as to who is under the protection of God and clear guidance as to when one can defend their Faith.

Personally I see this all undolds as foretold in the Book of Revelation. It is the Faith of the Two Witnesses that would give prophecy for 1260 years clothed in sackcloth. The Bible fortells that it would be taken over by the Beast early on.

As a Baha'i, we have another Covernant, the one promised by Christ where swords are turned into plowshares. Baha'u'llah removed Holy War from the book.

Regards Tony

Joyousperson · May 20, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I do not see that it is. There is a clear Covenant aspects such as there is 'No compulsion in Religion. There is clear guidance as to who is under the protection of God and clear guidance as to when one can defend their Faith.

Personally I see this all undolds as foretold in the Book of Revelation. It is the Faith of the Two Witnesses that would give prophecy for 1260 years clothed in sackcloth. The Bible fortells that it would be taken over by the Beast early on.

As a Baha'i, we have another Covernant, the one promised by Christ where swords are turned into plowshares. Baha'u'llah removed Holy War from the book.

Regards Tony

The 'No Compulsion in Religion' verse 2:256 cannot stand by itself.

I do not want to emphasize the underlying historical context, but note this;

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas
When the children of a woman (in pre-Islamic days) did not survive, she took a vow on herself that if her child survives, she would convert it a Jew. When Banu an-Nadir were expelled (from Arabia), there were some children of the Ansar (Helpers) among them. They said: We shall not leave our children. So Allah the Exalted revealed; "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error."
Sunan Abu Dawud 14:2676

However note this where the no compulsion is abrogated;

Allah says: "There is no compulsion in religion", meaning: do not force anyone to embrace Islam, because it is clear and its proofs and evidences are manifest. Whoever Allah guides and opens his heart to Islam has indeed embraced it with clear evidence. Whoever Allah misguides blinds his heart and has set a seal on his hearing and a covering on his eyes cannot embrace Islam by force...hence Allah revealed this verse.
But, this verse is abrogated by the verse of "fighting...Therefore, all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the Jizya they should be fought till they are killed. This is the meaning of compulsion.
In the Sahih, the Prophet said: "Allah wonders at those people who will enter Paradise in chains", meaning prisoners brought in chains to the Islamic state, then they embrace Islam sincerely and become righteous, and are entered among the people of Paradise.[1]
Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 1999: First Edition, Part 3, pp. 37-38

In addition, even if no compulsion is valid [I don't believe it is], "no compulsion" do not meant non-Muslims cannot be killed under those vague conditions or be oppressed and be dominated.

Note the verse that followed 2:256 [Pickthall]

002.256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

002.257 Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them out of darkness into light.
As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

Note the 15 verses of the 3400++ verses that represent the ethos of hatred, evil and violence directed antagonistically against non-Muslims.
Thus even if there an indication of no compulsion in religion [one standalone verse pertaining to a specific circumstances], this is overwhelmed by the 3400++ evil and violent laden verses representing the evil and violent ethos of Islam.

The non-compulsion of Islam is normally a defense by Muslim against the accusation that Islam was spread by the sword. That is not an issue here.

The issue is Islam is not peaceful because the Quran, i.e. words of Allah is loaded with evil and violent laden elements that are not peaceful.

JosephZ · May 20, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Why 50 years and not the whole of the 1400 history of Islam so we can understand the underlying evil ethos that is prevailing strongly within Islam that is a threat to humanity in the future till eternity?

I was using 50 years because the data-set from the Global Terrorism Database only goes back to 1970. You can go back further into the history of terrorism from other sources and also learn that pre-1970 Islamic related terrorism has historically been low.

Joyousperson said:
Note the 80 million killed in Islam's 1000 years occupation of India and the overall total is more likely to be more than 100 million killed in the name of Islam in relation to other reasons.

Did you read any of the book that this 80 million number comes from? 80 million is a high estimate and is based on census data. It also includes deaths of all kinds like accidents, disease, famine, etc.. No where close to that many people were killed as a direct result of Islamic occupation. Most of those people during that period would have probably died anyway. Most importantly, the exact same conditions were found in nations that were under Christian and other imperialist occupation. There were battles, massacres, genocide, villages purged, mass rapes, and enslavement of the native populations. What happened in India happened in many other parts of the world, in some cases even worse. Singling out an Islamic colonial regime in an effort to try and show Islam promotes violence is not using a fair measure of judgement.

Joyousperson said:
Those are statements but not supported by verses from the Quran.

You obviously didn't go to the link I suggested. There are many supporting verses along with excerpts from the hadiths along with scholarly commentary.

Joyousperson said:
Even in other cases where verses from the Quran are picked to justify Islam is peaceful, those verses are cherry-picked not in the context of the whole Quran and ethos of Islam.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing? You are cherry picking the same verses that have been singled out of the Qur'an by Islamic terrorists to justify their actions. These are the exact same verses that anti-Islamic propagandists have been using to try and sow discord and create division between Muslims and non-Muslims since 9/11. The only difference is that the overwhelming consensus among religious scholars from all backgrounds, Islamic scholars, and Muslims in general is that your position is incorrect.

Joyousperson said:
I did my own research, note I stated my own research indicated 55% while Bill Warner concluded 64%... I did my own research, note I stated my own research indicated 55% while Bill Warner concluded 64%.
I don't have my researched references online, that is why I chose Bill Warner's reference as a matter of convenience...
Bill Warner has given supporting evidence [not his own] to justify 64% or 3991 of the 6236 verses in the Quran are about the non-Muslim infidels, the kafir, kuffar.
This is very objective.

Joyousperson said:
This is very telling, i.e. why is Islam claimed as a supposedly peaceful religion has 3400++ verses or 55% in the Quran [Pickthall] that are antagonistic to non-Muslims???

Have you done comparative research on the Bible on how many violent verses there are towards non-believers, how many times their destruction was ordered, and how many times they are condemned?

Joyousperson said:
All those who critiqued Islam objectively will arrive at the similar views of the inherent evil and violence within Islam. This is like Science's objectivity, where who ever test an accepted scientific theory, they are expected to achieve the same results.

Have you ever read any objective academic studies that have compared the Bible to the Qur'an?

Joyousperson said:
Btw, Bill Warner spent years researching Islam and he as a scientist is very objective in his approach just like his research in Science... Bill Warner has given supporting evidence [not his own] to justify 64% or 3991 of the 6236 verses in the Quran are about the non-Muslim infidels, the kafir, kuffar. This is very objective.

Do you honestly believe that a man like Bill Warner, who has said the American flag offends Allah and Americans offend Allah, that we will either defeat Islam or we will cease to exist as a nation, and has asked why do we keep immigration as an open door into our country with regard to Muslims, is capable of producing an unbiased and objective report?

Joyousperson said:
Note the first 14 verses of the the 3400++ verses that I had termed as antagonistic and negative to non-Muslims;
Read them very slowly and carefully and note the intense hatred Allah has for non-believers merely because they disbelieve;
Note the below is not in context of war or defense but a general introduction to the inherent ethos of hate within Islam;

001.005-7 Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help.

Note the above are only 15 verses, there are 3385 verses more in the Quran which are of worst hatred than the above!
Would you insist the above are peaceful verses to non-Muslim?
Would you insist the above are words of a kind, merciful, and compassionate God. Note these verses in contrast to the words of Jesus in the Gospels.

Those verses above are very similar to verses found in the Bible about unbelievers.

Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. (Qur'an 1:1)
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (Qur'an 2:6)
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (John 12:48)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving... their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

And about the unbelieving Jews:

“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9)

God’s judgment against non-believers in the Bible is no different than what is found in the Qur'an. God will destroy "every ruler and every authority and power” (1 Corinthians 15:24). Here is what the Bible says Jesus is going to do when He returns: "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9) In the Parable of the Ten Minas, most likely referring to the second coming of Christ, the ruler calls for those who do not want him to reign over them to be brought forward and slaughtered in his presence. (Luke 19:27)

Also, just like God in the Bible, Allah/God in the Qur'an is forgiving to those who repent of unbelief.

Keep in mind that much of what is written in the Qur'an comes from the teachings of Judaism and Christianity. Muhammad borrowed much of what he wrote from what he had heard from Christians and Jews during his travels.

Joyousperson said:
The point is if one's God who is holding one life by the thread, hates non-believers, it is very natural for the believers to hate the non-believers as well.

How many Muslims have you personally met in your lifetime have shown any sign of hatred towards you because you are not a Muslim?

Joyousperson said:
If you do not agree with Warner, provide your counter arguments objectively instead of making wild and sweeping statements.

I have already done this already in this thread and others you have been participating in.

Joyousperson said:
I will have a look, but I don't think painting white over a permanent black surface will get rid of the blackness.

Joyousperson said:
I checked the site but there are no details except a video from the lecturer.
He admitted he does not know Islam fully.
Rather what he knows of Islam is from what he had learned from Muslims.

The lecturer is Dr. David Shenk. He has a PhD in Religious Studies from New York University and teaches courses in Islam and Eastern Religions. He was born in Tanzania. Lived for ten years in Somalia and lectured in comparative religion and church history at Kenyatta University, Nairobi, Kenya for six years and has spent time several other Islamic countries. I'm pretty sure he knows a lot more about Islam than Bill Warner.

You will have to enroll in the course to get access to the material. Below are some of the resources you will have access to and a course outline:

Textbook #1: A Muslim and A Christian in Dialogue
Textbook #2 for the course: Journeys
Encyclopedia Of Islam.pdf
Concise Encyclopedia Islam.pdf
The New Cambridge History of Islam Volume 1

STUDY WEEK 1
Early Theological Formation in the Arabian Background
VIDEO 3.1.The Christian Context.
VIDEO 3.2. The Jewish Context.
VIDEO 3.3. The Jahiliyya and the Hanif Contexts.

STUDY WEEK 2
VIDEO 4.1. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 1.
VIDEO 4.2. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 3
Muslim Theology and Praxis
VIDEO 5.1. The Five Pillars of Muslim Theology (Iman).
VIDEO 5.2. Presenting the Gospel to Muslim.
VIDEO 5.3. The Five Pillars of Muslim Praxis (Ihsan).
VIDEO 5.4. The Mission of Islam to the World

STUDY WEEK 4
VIDEO 6. Adam and Eve
VIDEO 7. Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac

STUDY WEEK 5
VIDEO 8.1. The Qur'an and Jesus.
VIDEO 8.2. The Qur'an and Muhammad.
VIDEO 8.3. Is Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets?

STUDY WEEK 6
VIDEO 9.1. Understanding the Qur'an.
VIDEO 9.2. The Arabic Qur'an.

STUDY WEEK 7
VIDEO 10.1. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 1.
VIDEO 10.2. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 8
VIDEO 11.2 Migration of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina.
VIDEO 11.2. Jesus's Journey to the Cross.
VIDEO 11.3. The Significance of the Cross.

STUDY WEEK 9
VIDEO 12.1. The Muslim Ummah in Medina.
VIDEO 12.2. The Church in Jerusalem.
VIDEO 13. Tawhid and Trinity

STUDY WEEK 10
VIDEO 14. The Hajj and the Eucharist.
VIDEO 15.1. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 1.
VIDEO 15.2. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 11
VIDEO 16. The Shi'a or Shi'ite Muslims.
VIDEO 17. Sufi Mystics.
VIDEO 18. Folk and Secularist Islam

STUDY WEEK 12
VIDEO 19. Principles for Ministry Among Muslims
VIDEO 20. An Open Door (Revelation 3:7-12)

There's a lot of information there and the course will take you several weeks to complete. It took me a little over two months because of my work schedule. I always recommend this class to Christians who are looking into witnessing to Muslims. It covers a lot of topics and is a very good introductory course on Islam, it's teachings, and what Muslims believe.

Joyousperson said:
Where the moderates come across the violent verses they with deflect it away with all sorts of excuses due to cognitive dissonances and they will apply confirmation bias.

No, what they do is read the surrounding text which clearly shows their a strict limits as to when violence can be used and who it can be used against.

Joyousperson said:
Instead to deflecting and relying on third parties' views, I had suggested you must research the Quran and Islam objectively with independence on your own. Third parties should only be used a support to your own research.

I have spent more than three decades doing this. My conclusions are based on countless hours of coursework in Islamic Studies, my own reading of Islamic texts, spending more than nine years of my life living among Muslims in different parts of the world. My conclusions have been reached based on my own experiences and observations.

Tony Bristow-Stagg · May 20, 2019

Joyousperson said:
However note this where the no compulsion is abrogated;

No Quran verse is Abrogated by a hadith. If a hadith contradicts the Spirit if the Quran it is to be rejected.

The Quran verse stands "There is no compulsuonin Religion".

The corruption of the word given by Muhammad in the Quran by some that claim to be Muslim, is no different than the corruption of the Word given by Christ in the Bible by some that claimed to be Christain.

Most today that go after the people that have chosen violence over peace, live and justuce, forget the history of Christianity, the crusades, burning of witches and heresy murders to name but a small section of violence carried out in the name of Christ.

I see the time would be better spent proving the God given intent of the Quran and as such imparting the Christ spirit into our thoughts and actions.

Regards Tony

Joyousperson · May 20, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
No Quran verse is Abrogated by a hadith. If a hadith contradicts the Spirit if the Quran it is to be rejected.

The Quran verse stands "There is no compulsuonin Religion".

The corruption of the word given by Muhammad in the Quran by some that claim to be Muslim, is no different than the corruption of the Word given by Christ in the Bible by some that claimed to be Christain.

Most today that go after the people that have chosen violence over peace, live and justuce, forget the history of Christianity, the crusades, burning of witches and heresy murders to name but a small section of violence carried out in the name of Christ.

I see the time would be better spent proving the God given intent of the Quran and as such imparting the Christ spirit into our thoughts and actions.

Regards Tony

Note the abrogation claim is not by the Ahadith.

Fact is, there is a chronological order the Quranic verses were delivered to Muhammad over 23 years.
The abrogation of the 'no compulsion' is from the evil and violent contents and contexts of the later verses of the Quran.

There is a critical difference between the violent element in the Bible in contrast to those in the Quran.

All the violent elements in the NT are overridden by the overriding pacifist maxim of love all, even one's enemies, neighbors, give the other cheek, and the likes.

There is no such overriding pacifist maxim in the Quran. The underlying ethos of the Quran is do what is necessary to the extent of killing non-Muslims if Islam is under threat [with very vague definition]. This is why there is so much evil and killing by SOME Muslims in the name of the religion.

Joyousperson · May 20, 2019

JosephZ said:
I was using 50 years because the data-set from the Global Terrorism Database only goes back to 1970. You can go back further into the history of terrorism from other sources and also learn that pre-1970 Islamic related terrorism has historically been low.

This is why I am questioning your intellectual integrity. If you do not have sufficient data then you should not use them in an attempt to represent the whole truth.

Note I have listed to you the lists of massacres by Muslim terrorists since 1400 years ago to the present.

Low? How low is 'low'.
Note we agreed even one act of evil and violent must be addressed to determine its root cause.
Since 1400 years ago, at the most conservative there had been thousands [my est is millions] and millions of non-Muslims had been killed.

What is critical is not so much of how many or how low the numbers are, rather is the perennial underlying ethos of the evil ideology underlying Islam that will inspire the zealous to commit evil and violence on non-Muslims.

Did you read any of the book that this 80 million number comes from? 80 million is a high estimate and is based on census data. It also includes deaths of all kinds like accidents, disease, famine, etc.. No where close to that many people were killed as a direct result of Islamic occupation. Most of those people during that period would have probably died anyway. Most importantly, the exact same conditions were found in nations that were under Christian and other imperialist occupation. There were battles, massacres, genocide, villages purged, mass rapes, and enslavement of the native populations. What happened in India happened in many other parts of the world, in some cases even worse. Singling out an Islamic colonial regime in an effort to try and show Islam promotes violence is not using a fair measure of judgement.

I am relying the credibility of the 80 million as very possible over 1000 years, i.e. 80,000 per year.
This is based on the list of massacres by Muslims I have listed plus the many unrecorded deaths over that 1000+ years.

I have to say your intelligence and critical thinking is very wanting. I have stated many times, don't keep bringing in killings and violence by others which is off topic and nevertheless these evil and violent must be addressed without exceptions.

You obviously didn't go to the link I suggested. There are many supporting verses along with excerpts from the hadiths along with scholarly commentary.

I had a glance but did not see any.
Why don't you provide me the direct evidence instead of asking me to search needles from the haystack.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing? You are cherry picking the same verses that have been singled out of the Qur'an by Islamic terrorists to justify their actions. These are the exact same verses that anti-Islamic propagandists have been using to try and sow discord and create division between Muslims and non-Muslims since 9/11. The only difference is that the overwhelming consensus among religious scholars from all backgrounds, Islamic scholars, and Muslims in general is that your position is incorrect.

I may have mentioned specific verses in certain conditions but my approach is always thematic and in context of the whole Quran. Note my reference to the 3400++ verses as 55% of all the 6236 verses of the Quran.

Note the majority's view do not always represent the truth.
Do you understand the ad populum fallacy via reliance of the majority? It appear you are not a critical thinker and lack logical skills. Rather your views are very emotional and psychological, thus very subjective.

Have you done comparative research on the Bible on how many violent verses there are towards non-believers, how many times their destruction was ordered, and how many times they are condemned?

Not personally, but I have read someone's research who concluded there are more evil and violent elements in the Bible [esp OT] than in the Quran.

However I have argued Christianity has capped off the evil and violent elements with an overriding pacifist maxim of love all, even one's enemies. Note 'overriding' I presume you understand what that means since English is your mother tongue [not mine].

I have also argued with evidence, there is nothing in the Quran to override all the evil and violent elements. Instead Muslims are exhorted to kill non-Muslims under vague conditions and this influence SOME [pool of 300 million] to go on to commit evil and violence on non-Muslims.

Have you ever read any objective academic studies that have compared the Bible to the Qur'an?

Yes, note my explanation above.

Do you honestly believe that a man like Bill Warner, who has said the American flag offends Allah and Americans offend Allah, that we will either defeat Islam or we will cease to exist as a nation, and has asked why do we keep immigration as an open door into our country with regard to Muslims, is capable of producing an unbiased and objective report?

Yes.
Note I am NOT believing and relying on Warner by faith.
I did my own objective research and we happen to reach the same conclusion.

Those verses above are very similar to verses found in the Bible about unbelievers.

Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help. (Qur'an 1:1)
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (Qur'an 2:6)
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. (John 12:48)

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving... their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

And about the unbelieving Jews:

“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9)

God’s judgment against non-believers in the Bible is no different than what is found in the Qur'an. God will destroy "every ruler and every authority and power” (1 Corinthians 15:24). Here is what the Bible says Jesus is going to do when He returns: "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9) In the Parable of the Ten Minas, most likely referring to the second coming of Christ, the ruler calls for those who do not want him to reign over them to be brought forward and slaughtered in his presence. (Luke 19:27)

I have acknowledge there are evil and violent elements in the Quran.

As argued above and worth repeating;

However I have argued Christianity has capped off the evil and violent elements with an overriding pacifist maxim of love all, even one's enemies. Note 'overriding' I presume you understand what that means since English is your mother tongue [not mine].

I have also argued with evidence, there is nothing in the Quran to override all the evil and violent elements. Instead Muslims are exhorted to kill non-Muslims under vague conditions and this influence SOME [pool of 300 million] to go on to commit evil and violence on non-Muslims.

Also, just like God in the Bible, Allah/God in the Qur'an is forgiving to those who repent of unbelief.

This is not a relevant point to the OP.
In any case, it is obvious and objective, Allah will surely favor those who convert to be Muslim.

But Christ went much far ahead in loving enemies and commanding Christians to love even their enemies. There is no such comparison in Islam.

Keep in mind that much of what is written in the Qur'an comes from the teachings of Judaism and Christianity. Muhammad borrowed much of what he wrote from what he had heard from Christians and Jews during his travels.

I am well aware of the above from my research.
30% of the 6236 verses in the Quran are stories plagiarised from the OT and NT.
Also many of the good moral and ethics are plagiarized from the Bible and other sources.

Re other sources, not only that Muhammad et al plagiarized ideas from others but made stupid conclusions from these half-baked truths, e.g. the Sun set in Muddy waters, sperm is somewhere between the ribs and pelvic bone, etc.

How many Muslims have you personally met in your lifetime have shown any sign of hatred towards you because you are not a Muslim?

This is irrelevant and bad logic re ad populum fallacy.
I have argued what is critical is the underlying ethos of evil and violence within the ideology of Islam that will influence the zealous critical minority. Note Pareto's 80/20. You understand this Pareto's principles?

The lecturer is Dr. David Shenk. He has a PhD in Religious Studies from New York University and teaches courses in Islam and Eastern Religions. He was born in Tanzania. Lived for ten years in Somalia and lectured in comparative religion and church history at Kenyatta University, Nairobi, Kenya for six years and has spent time several other Islamic countries. I'm pretty sure he knows a lot more about Islam than Bill Warner.

You will have to enroll in the course to get access to the material. Below are some of the resources you will have access to and a course outline:

Textbook #1: A Muslim and A Christian in Dialogue
Textbook #2 for the course: Journeys
Encyclopedia Of Islam.pdf
Concise Encyclopedia Islam.pdf
The New Cambridge History of Islam Volume 1

STUDY WEEK 1
Early Theological Formation in the Arabian Background
VIDEO 3.1.The Christian Context.
VIDEO 3.2. The Jewish Context.
VIDEO 3.3. The Jahiliyya and the Hanif Contexts.

STUDY WEEK 2
VIDEO 4.1. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 1.
VIDEO 4.2. The Muslim Community (Ummah). Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 3
Muslim Theology and Praxis
VIDEO 5.1. The Five Pillars of Muslim Theology (Iman).
VIDEO 5.2. Presenting the Gospel to Muslim.
VIDEO 5.3. The Five Pillars of Muslim Praxis (Ihsan).
VIDEO 5.4. The Mission of Islam to the World

STUDY WEEK 4
VIDEO 6. Adam and Eve
VIDEO 7. Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac

STUDY WEEK 5
VIDEO 8.1. The Qur'an and Jesus.
VIDEO 8.2. The Qur'an and Muhammad.
VIDEO 8.3. Is Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets?

STUDY WEEK 6
VIDEO 9.1. Understanding the Qur'an.
VIDEO 9.2. The Arabic Qur'an.

STUDY WEEK 7
VIDEO 10.1. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 1.
VIDEO 10.2. Tanzil and Incarnation. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 8
VIDEO 11.2 Migration of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina.
VIDEO 11.2. Jesus's Journey to the Cross.
VIDEO 11.3. The Significance of the Cross.

STUDY WEEK 9
VIDEO 12.1. The Muslim Ummah in Medina.
VIDEO 12.2. The Church in Jerusalem.
VIDEO 13. Tawhid and Trinity

STUDY WEEK 10
VIDEO 14. The Hajj and the Eucharist.
VIDEO 15.1. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 1.
VIDEO 15.2. Shari'a is Muslim Law. Part 2.

STUDY WEEK 11
VIDEO 16. The Shi'a or Shi'ite Muslims.
VIDEO 17. Sufi Mystics.
VIDEO 18. Folk and Secularist Islam

STUDY WEEK 12
VIDEO 19. Principles for Ministry Among Muslims
VIDEO 20. An Open Door (Revelation 3:7-12)

There's a lot of information there and the course will take you several weeks to complete. It took me a little over two months because of my work schedule. I always recommend this class to Christians who are looking into witnessing to Muslims. It covers a lot of topics and is a very good introductory course on Islam, it's teachings, and what Muslims believe.

Having read of many Muslim apologists, it is noted they are not objective in the presentation.
It would be very stupid of me to waste my time taking
Dr. David Shenk's course.

Note I have stated many times, I am doing my own detailed research into the Quran and Islam on an objective basis.
I am suggesting you do your own research especially in understanding Islam.

No, what they do is read the surrounding text which clearly shows their a strict limits as to when violence can be used and who it can be used against.

There are verses and surrounding texts that have limits but in the whole contexts of the Quran and Islam, the prevailing ethos is the killing and oppression of non-Muslims under certain vague conditions.

I have spent more than three decades doing this. My conclusions are based on countless hours of coursework in Islamic Studies, my own reading of Islamic texts, spending more than nine years of my life living among Muslims in different parts of the world. My conclusions have been reached based on my own experiences and observations.

You may have spent years with exposure to Islam and Muslims but I don't see you have used the objective approach.

Note I listed a sample of 15 [out of 3400++ or 55%] verses of evil and violent elements from the Quran.

Your approach is so immature on critical and logical thinking by deflecting it with the evil and violent elements in the Bible. I have countered you on this, i.e. you cannot compare on this basis.

I had suggested you suspend whatever your current judgment and scrutinize the 3400++ evil and violent [nb: of various degrees] elements in the Quran, given there is no overriding maxim to neutralize and cap these evil and violent elements.

JosephZ · May 21, 2019

JosephZ · May 21, 2019

Joyousperson said:
This is why I am questioning your intellectual integrity. If you do not have sufficient data then you should not use them in an attempt to represent the whole truth.

I also said:

JosephZ said:
You can go back further into the history of terrorism from other sources and also learn that pre-1970 Islamic related terrorism has historically been low.

I have already done this, you obviously haven't.

Joyousperson said:
Note I have listed to you the lists of massacres by Muslim terrorists since 1400 years ago to the present

What you listed were events that were occurring across the globe and by regimes of all ideologies during those 1,400 years. It was the norm and not unique to Islamic imperialists. What you provided doesn't prove anything. Also, most of the examples in the list were imperialist armies fighting against opposing forces. That's not considered terrorism. Native forces were also fighting against Christian invaders and colonizers in other parts of the world as well.

Joyousperson said:
I am relying the credibility of the 80 million as very possible over 1000 years, i.e. 80,000 per year.
This is based on the list of massacres by Muslims I have listed plus the many unrecorded deaths over that 1000+ years.

I have to say your intelligence and critical thinking is very wanting. I have stated many times, don't keep bringing in killings and violence by others which is off topic and nevertheless these evil and violent must be addressed without exceptions.

You keep throwing this 80 million number around to support your argument as if it's gospel, yet the source it comes from doesn't even contribute those deaths as coming directly at the hands of the Islamic colonizers. As for the list of massacres you provided, first off the numbers of people killed don't add up to anywhere close to 80 million, and many of the deaths counted were Muslims killed by opposing forces and deaths from famine and disease. Do you even read your own sources?

Joyousperson said:
I had a glance but did not see any.
Why don't you provide me the direct evidence instead of asking me to search needles from the haystack.

Here's the most concise link.

Joyousperson said:
Here is the challenge;
There are 3400++ verses in the Quran that are directed antagonistically with hate and extreme hatred towards non-Muslim. Coupled with extreme verses that condone killing of non-Muslims merely because they are disbelievers, this form a very strong and core ethos of hatred towards non-Muslims thus resulting in the glaringly and evidently killings of innocent non-Muslims by SOME Muslims from a possible pool of 300 million evil prone Muslims.
Can you dispute the above?

Joyousperson said:
I have done my own analysis which is 55% with reference to specific verses.

Here is one done by Bill Warner who claim it is 64% in terms of paragraphs not verses.

Kafir | CSPI
Kafir in the Quran- Meccan
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/TrilogyStats/Koran/Kafir_in_Koran.pdf
Kafir in Quran - Medina
http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/TrilogyStats/Koran/Kafir_in_Koran.pdf
Note again, Bill Warners analysis of 64% is based on the context of the paragraph and not on individual verses. Thus some verses in the paragraph may not contain the kafir element, but as a whole paragraph would had reference to the kafir or non-believers.
This basis of referring to the paragraph and context is more tedious whereas referring to individual verses is easier but in any case has to refer to the context subsequently.

Joyousperson said:
Note I am NOT believing and relying on Warner by faith.
I did my own objective research and we happen to reach the same conclusion.

You claim that "there are 3400++ verses in the Quran that are directed antagonistically with hate and extreme hatred towards non-Muslim. Coupled with extreme verses that condone killing of non-Muslims merely because they are disbelievers."

That isn't even a remote possibility. The word kafir (unbeliever) or any words associated with it only occur in the Qur'an around 420 times.

Not all of those verses are condemning to unbelievers as many only mentions them. In each and every verse where the killing of non believers is mentioned, there are strict conditions prescribed for doing so, and not a single one that calls for the killing of unbelievers simply for being unbelievers.

You mentioned that in Bill Warner's research supports your claim that there are 3,400 verses in the Qur'an that are evil and violent that are directed antagonistically with hate and extreme hatred towards non-Muslims. Not only is his research laughable, but it in no way supports your claim. Let's look at how Mr. Warner came to the conclusion that 64% of the Qur'an contains violent references to unbelievers.

Below is from the link you provided:

Kafir in Koran Total words in Koran 152,006
Total about Kafirs: 97,583
Percentage: 64.0%

Kafir, Mecca = 66,285
Koran Mecca = 97,184 68.2%
Kafir, Medina = 31,287
Koran Medina = 54,822 57.0%

So there are three major idea/concept units used in this study: the verse, the story and the Koranic Argument. If the story is about how Allah destroyed the city because the city would not accept the prophet of Allah, then for measurement purposes, the entire story (idea unit) is counted as being about the kafir.

Below are two examples from Bill Warner's research where the word kafir (Unbeliever) is used and the surrounding content that he counts towards reaching his conclusion that 64% of the Qur'an contains violent references to unbelievers:

27:59 Say: Praise be to Allah and peace be on His servants whom He has chosen for His
message. Who is better, Allah or the false gods they associate with Him? Is He not the best,
Who created the heavens and the earth, and Who sends rain down from heaven for you,
which We then cause to grow luxurious gardens? You do not have the power to cause trees
to grow. How could there be another god besides Allah? Still, they try to say that there are
equals to Him! Is He not the best Who set the earth firmly in place and placed rivers and
immovable mountains there and placed a barrier between the two seas [fresh water and salt
water]? How could there be another god besides Allah? Still, they try to say that there are
equals to Him! Is He not the best Who answers the cries of distressed souls when they call to
Him and relieves their suffering and makes you the inheritors of the earth? How could there
be another god besides Allah? How few keep this in mind! Is He not the best Who guides
you through the darkness of the land and the sea and sends the winds as heralds of His
mercy? How could there be another god besides Allah? Allah is far above what they
associate with Him.
27:64 Is He not the best Who created life and then repeats it, and Who provides for you from
the heavens and the earth? How could there be another god besides Allah? Say: If you are
telling the truth, then bring your proof. Say: No one in heaven or earth, no one except Allah,
knows the unseen. They do not know when they will be raised from the dead. They know
even less about the hereafter. No, they have great doubts about it. No, they are blind to it.
27:67 The unbelievers say, “What? Will we really be raised from the dead when we have
become dust like our fathers? It is true that we were promised this, ourselves and our
fathers, too. This is nothing but ancient fables.”
27:69 Say: Travel through the land and see what becomes of the wicked. Do not grieve over
them and do not be distressed because of their plots against you. They say, “If you are
telling the truth, when will this promise come to pass?”
27:72 Say: Perhaps some of what you seek to hurry towards is near. Your Lord is filled with
goodness toward men, but most are not thankful. Your Lord knows full well what is hidden
in their hearts, as well as everything they reveal. There is nothing hidden in the heavens or
earth that is not recorded in a clear book.
________________________________________________________________________

54:9 Before them, Noah’s people rejected the truth. They rejected Our servant and called
him insane and drove him away. So he cried out to his Lord, “I am defeated. Help me!”
54:11 We opened heaven’s gates and water gushed out, and We caused springs to erupt all
over the earth and their waters [waters of heaven and springs of earth] met by preordained
plan. We carried Noah away on a boat made with planks and nails. It floated away under
Our watchful eye. A reward for someone who was rejected—We left it [the ark] as a sign,
but will anyone pay attention? My vengeance and warning was terrible!
54:17 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:18 The people of Ad [an ancient people of southern Arabia] rejected the truth, but My
vengeance and warning was terrible because We sent a roaring wind against them on a day
of constant disaster sweeping men away like the stumps of uprooted palms. My vengeance
and warning was terrible!
54:22 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:23 The people of Thamud [Thamud was a trade town in ruins north of Mecca] rejected
the warning, and they said, “Should we follow one man just like ourselves? That would be
wrong and insane. Is he the only one of us to be trusted with such a warning? No! He is an
arrogant liar.” Tomorrow they will learn who the foolish liar is.
54:27 We will send them a she-camel as a test. Watch them and be patient. Tell them that
their water must be divided between themselves and the she-camel, and they must take
equal, alternating turns. Instead, they called their companion, who killed her. My
vengeance and warning was terrible! We sent a single blast against them and they became
like dried sticks.
54:32 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:33 Lot’s people rejected his warning, but We sent a shower of stones against them,
except for Lot and his family, whom We saved at dawn as a favor. This is how We reward
those who give thanks. He certainly warned them of Our punishment, but they doubted the
warning. They even tried to get him to turn out his guests, but We blinded their eyes and
said, “Taste My vengeance and My warning!” In the morning a relentless punishment struck
them.
54:40 We have made the Koran easy to remember, but will any one pay attention?
54:41 Warnings also came to the people of Pharaoh. They rejected all of Our signs, but We
grasped them with the grasp of the mighty and the powerful.
54:43 Are your unbelievers better men than these? Is there an exception for you [the
Meccans] in the scriptures? Or do they say, “We can defend ourselves if we stand together?”
They will be routed and will turn their backs and run. No! The Hour of Judgment is their
promised time, and that hour will be terrible and bitter.
54:47 Surely, the wicked are wrong and crazy. They will be dragged on their faces into the
fire that day. “Feel the fury of Hell.” We have created everything according to a preordained
plan. Our command is a single word, as quick as the wink of an eye. We have destroyed men
like you [the Meccans] in the past, but is any one warned?
54:52 Everything they do is written down in the books [records kept by recording angels]—
every act, both small and great, is recorded. Surely, the righteous will live among the
Gardens with rivers, in the seat of honor, in the presence of a mighty king.

In just those two examples alone, Mr. Warner is counting 19 verses and 1,064 words as containing evidence of violent references to unbelievers or what he calls “Koranic persuasion.”

This is by far one of, if not the, most ridiculous attempts to shine a bad light on a religion that I have ever come across. As I said, it's laughable and should not be taken as serious research by anyone.

That being said, in the other thread I asked that you upload some of your research so I can see what led you to the conclusion that 3,400 verses in the Qur'an are evil, violent, and are directed antagonistically with hate and extreme hatred towards non-Muslims. These are apparently the same verses you feel command that Muslims commit acts of aggression and violence against non-Muslims or that lead Muslims to hate non-Muslims.

I will be looking forward to seeing your research.

Joyousperson said:
Note the majority's view do not always represent the truth.
Do you understand the ad populum fallacy via reliance of the majority? It appear you are not a critical thinker and lack logical skills. Rather your views are very emotional and psychological, thus very subjective.

If 99.99% of Muslims in the world aren't participating in violent jihad against non-Muslims, then it's safe to say that Islam does teach that Muslims will be rewarded for doing so or that their salvation is guaranteed for doing so. This is called being logical. I have also studied Islam for many years and have had conversations with countless Muslims about religion and have also concluded that there is no such teaching in Islam.

Joyousperson said:
But Christ went much far ahead in loving enemies and commanding Christians to love even their enemies. There is no such comparison in Islam.

Have you ever listened to an Islamic sermon? If not, you will probably be surprised at what is taught to Muslims about loving others.

Joyousperson said:
I have argued what is critical is the underlying ethos of evil and violence within the ideology of Islam that will influence the zealous critical minority. Note Pareto's 80/20. You understand this Pareto's principles?

I'm not so sure you understand Pareto's principle. Understanding the Pareto Principle (The 80/20 Rule) – BetterExplained

Joyousperson said:
Having read of many Muslim apologists, it is noted they are not objective in the presentation.
It would be very stupid of me to waste my time taking
Dr. David Shenk's course.

So you reject the teachings of Muslim scholars and Christian professors with Doctorates in Religious Studies yet accept the teachings of Bill Warner who has absolutely no background in religious or Islamic studies and says Islam has no place in the US and Muslims shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to the US?

How can you possibly believe that someone like Bill Warner would teach the truth about Islam or that he would be objective in his presentation of Islam?

If you only learn from people who support and share your personal biases, then you really aren't learning anything at all.

I hope you will reconsider taking the course I suggested. It will challenge everything you think you know about Islam and what Muslims believe.

dzheremi · May 21, 2019

This is as incorrect

Joyousperson said:
[presumption all religions are peaceful]

as this is correct

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Personally I've never denigrated individual Muslims but I will make it known how odious i find their faith.

Islam Do Not Bash Muslims

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Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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