My Degenerate Challenge

Ophiolite

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I'd say the fact that we can process lactose nowadays is DEFINITELY an improvement and not an error.
More accurately, it is an error that produces a benefit. This illustrates two aspects of evolution that creationists seem unable to grasp:
Yes, variation arises from errors, but:
1. Some variation can be beneficial, some deleterious and some neutral.
2. Which of these it is depends upon environmental conditions (internal and external).
 
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NeedyFollower

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But evolution doesn't talk about society. Evolution just talks about biological life.
Well yes and not until Darwin although the theory was not unique . So well prior to Darwin and the publication of the Origin of Species , there was a discussion of de-evolution or degeneration but it was a metaphysical application . It was societal and was manifested many times in history . It is said that history repeats itself . Obviously that does not make it so but if so then history can be prophetic . As far as I am aware , the bible is the only document that traces the history of a people in combination with prophetic pronouncements which has been verified by archaeological discoveries .
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Well yes and not until Darwin although the theory was not unique . So well prior to Darwin and the publication of the Origin of Species , there was a discussion of de-evolution or degeneration but it was a metaphysical application . It was societal and was manifested many times in history . It is said that history repeats itself . Obviously that does not make it so but if so then history can be prophetic . As far as I am aware , the bible is the only document that traces the history of a people in combination with prophetic pronouncements which has been verified by archaeological discoveries .

Except it doesn't, and evolution doesn't talk about society or what happens in society. It's just about biological life.
 
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Astrophile

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Does evolution degenerate?

Are parasites, such as intestinal worms, degenerate, and have they evolved from free-living animals? If so, the answer to the question appears to be yes?

White dwarfs and neutron stars, which are the end-stages of stellar evolution, consist of degenerate matter, so one could say that stellar evolution leads to degeneracy (an example of equivocation).
 
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klutedavid

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Does evolution degenerate?
The fossil record indicates the extinction of all species, an unwritten law of evolution is that everything will become extinct over time.

Is this extinction of species an observable fact?

Well this is an observable fact and this cannot be denied by anyone.

If a species can change from one species to another seems improbable, but the extinction of all species is a guaranteed outcome.

Species are always changing in appearance and even in function, but the genetic code that defines a species cannot change.

So do species degenerate within their DNA?

Probably not.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I think their word for it is "mutating."

We are considered mutant copy-errors.

If we weren't, we would look just like our parents.

True. If God hadn't built 'variants' into us we would all be clones. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
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NeedyFollower

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Except it doesn't, and evolution doesn't talk about society or what happens in society. It's just about biological life.
I am very sorry for not explaining myself more clearly . Evolution did not begin to talk about biological life until it did . Someone coined the phrase and gave it meaning . If it is true , it existed prior to being named , pondered or discovered . So , you are correct in the sense in which it has historically been discussed . Slavery does not exist in the USA . This is because a biological species' opinion evolved unless an opinion can not evolve . If an opinion can evolve which transforms the perspective of a person towards the meaning of race and personhood and people make up a society , then why is it not possible for evolution to apply in a societal sense . Is society biological or inanimate ?
It was written that evil men and seducers will grow worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived . This can be demonstrated in run-away capitalism where people are basically merchandise to advertisers . Deception and seduction comes in the form of " I will be perceived as more important if I drive XYZ ...if I wear ( name the fashion trend ) , etc. Of course the reality is we are allowing ourselves to be influenced by people who need us to buy their product in order to keep their job . We are seduced every day .
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I am very sorry for not explaining myself more clearly . Evolution did not begin to talk about biological life until it did . Someone coined the phrase and gave it meaning . If it is true , it existed prior to being named , pondered or discovered . So , you are correct in the sense in which it has historically been discussed . Slavery does not exist in the USA . This is because a biological species' opinion evolved unless an opinion can not evolve . If an opinion can evolve which transforms the perspective of a person towards the meaning of race and personhood and people make up a society , then why is it not possible for evolution to apply in a societal sense . Is society biological or inanimate ?
It was written that evil men and seducers will grow worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived . This can be demonstrated in run-away capitalism where people are basically merchandise to advertisers . Deception and seduction comes in the form of " I will be perceived as more important if I drive XYZ ...if I wear ( name the fashion trend ) , etc. Of course the reality is we are allowing ourselves to be influenced by people who need us to buy their product in order to keep their job . We are seduced every day .

You really just need to stop. The theory of evolution talks about biological life and how it changes in response to environmental pressures and ONLY about biological life and how it changes in response to environmental pressures.
The rest of what you've written, which is literally your entire post? Worthless. It's got nothing to do with anything in the thread or anything at all about evolution.
Put down the lance, Don Quixote. It's just a windmill.
 
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NeedyFollower

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You really just need to stop. The theory of evolution talks about biological life and how it changes in response to environmental pressures and ONLY about biological life and how it changes in response to environmental pressures.
The rest of what you've written, which is literally your entire post? Worthless. It's got nothing to do with anything in the thread or anything at all about evolution.
Put down the lance, Don Quixote. It's just a windmill.
I thought cause and effect was part of the evolutionary theory . And I do not question that you may find my post to be quite worthless but I do not know if it is . That may be a bit premature judgment . It may cause someone to think but again it may not . Again , cause and effect . Evolution of thought . There have been studies from multiple physiologist which demonstrate that our ability to think deeply has been negatively effected by our consumption of visual information in the form of television , movies , social media , etc. This is a form of evolution but in a negative way ( in my opinion ) . And when is truth not valuable ?
 
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Speedwell

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I thought cause and effect was part of the evolutionary theory . And I do not question that you may find my post to be quite worthless but I do not know if it is . That may be a bit premature judgment . It may cause someone to think but again it may not . Again , cause and effect . Evolution of thought . There have been studies from multiple physiologist which demonstrate that our ability to think deeply has been negatively effected by our consumption of visual information in the form of television , movies , social media , etc. This is a form of evolution but in a negative way ( in my opinion ) . And when is truth not valuable ?
It is a form of change but not a form of biological evolution, which proceeds by random variation and natural selection.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I thought cause and effect was part of the evolutionary theory . And I do not question that you may find my post to be quite worthless but I do not know if it is . That may be a bit premature judgment . It may cause someone to think but again it may not . Again , cause and effect . Evolution of thought . There have been studies from multiple physiologist which demonstrate that our ability to think deeply has been negatively effected by our consumption of visual information in the form of television , movies , social media , etc. This is a form of evolution but in a negative way ( in my opinion ) . And when is truth not valuable ?

That isn't evolution. Do you understand this? The theory of evolution is only about the change of biological life due to environmental pressures.
 
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NeedyFollower

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It is a form of change but not a form of biological evolution, which proceeds by random variation and natural selection.
Yes . I understand Darwin . I have read Dawkins and many others . Of course random variation does not adequately explain simultaneous serendipitous relationships developing such as the vanilla bean and the Melipona Bee although I guess one could argue that both changed together ....but that has too many limbs to go out on for me but I digress .
My point ( I hope ) is that humans are subject to evolution. Just because darwin said that the process is put into motion both randomly and according to natural selection , it is equally possible that had Darwin lived for another 140 years and seen the effect of non random environmental influences such as media , he may have also included these as a form of evolution . In other words , thus far , the theory of evolution is only about the change of biological life due to environmental pressures .
 
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NeedyFollower

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That isn't evolution. Do you understand this? The theory of evolution is only about the change of biological life due to environmental pressures.
Yes , Evolution as narrowly defined thus far , only addresses the theory that applies random happenstances which then cause a species or organism to adapt or die ...called natural selection . But as one who studies humanity , I see causation in the physiology of the brain which is neither random nor do I believe it will be beneficial . And what I am describing speaks directly to both evolution ( more broadly defined ) and the OP's question regarding evolutionary degeneration . Does natural selection kill itself ?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Yes , Evolution as narrowly defined thus far , only addresses the theory that applies random happenstances which then cause a species or organism to adapt or die ...called natural selection . But as one who studies humanity , I see causation in the physiology of the brain which is neither random nor do I believe it will be beneficial . And what I am describing speaks directly to both evolution ( more broadly defined ) and the OP's question regarding evolutionary degeneration . Does natural selection kill itself ?

That's not a good question, in any shape or form. Natural selection is not a thing that can die, or is even alive. Natural selection just happens.
You're not really supporting any claim that you're a person who 'studies'. And you don't see causation. You just see correlation and then your predefined ideas turns that in to causation.
 
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NeedyFollower

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That's not a good question, in any shape or form. Natural selection is not a thing that can die, or is even alive. Natural selection just happens.
You're not really supporting any claim that you're a person who 'studies'. And you don't see causation. You just see correlation and then your predefined ideas turns that in to causation.
Yes , you are correct . It was not a good question in any shape or form. Natural selection is of course a theoretical process which defies causation but is understood to allow organisms to adapt to their environment and propagate their species . So I guess it could be said that the process is active in living organisms . So I guess it stands to reason that the human organism could act counter to it's survival via natural selection which would not necessarily propagate the species .
My studies are more in the social sciences , history and religion . And while one may label certain things correlations ( as they may well be ) they also tend to alter future events ...or "cause " . Set in motion a chain of events . Not unlike me typing "causes" this to appear . It is not a coincidence . So causation certainly exist . There is a reason that humanity is very bright yet has lost much in the way of humility , patience , kindness . Personally , I see this as a degeneration of the human organism which has been acted on by the environment . This was predicted to occur and speaks to the OP's question regarding degeneration .
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Yes , you are correct . It was not a good question in any shape or form. Natural selection is of course a theoretical process which defies causation but is understood to allow organisms to adapt to their environment and propagate their species . So I guess it could be said that the process is active in living organisms . So I guess it stands to reason that the human organism could act counter to it's survival via natural selection which would not necessarily propagate the species .
My studies are more in the social sciences , history and religion . And while one may label certain things correlations ( as they may well be ) they also tend to alter future events ...or "cause " . Set in motion a chain of events . Not unlike me typing "causes" this to appear . It is not a coincidence . So causation certainly exist . There is a reason that humanity is very bright yet has lost much in the way of humility , patience , kindness . Personally , I see this as a degeneration of the human organism which has been acted on by the environment . This was predicted to occur and speaks to the OP's question regarding degeneration .

You obviously don't understand what you're arguing against, and it shows clearly.
 
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