Convince me of Annihilationism

Bible Highlighter · May 19, 2019

@friend of

Jesus distinguishes between the spiritual resurrection to heaven and the flesh and blood resurrection.

For the Spiritual Resurrection: Read Matthew 22:23-30.

For the Flesh and Blood Resurrection: Read Matthew 22:31-32.

Der Alte · May 19, 2019

friend of said:
Also, in the new heavens new earth, all those living there will not have the opportunity to be exiled or rejected from God's kingdom as they will be secured forever. I think that could suggest that there will be no places like hell or the LOF at all. If one could get exiled, post Rev 22, then surely it would have been mentioned somewhere.

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This passage is one continuous narrative therefore it cannot be argued that some parts that were written later occur before things that were written earlier.
To summarize.
vs. 4, "no more death"
vs. 5, "all things new."
vs. 6, "it is done"
vs. 8, although vs. 4 says "no more death" in vs. 8, eight groups of people are thrown into the LoF "which is the second death."

mmksparbud · May 19, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I believe you are misapplying Scripture here but I guess we will all find out for sure when our appointed day comes. Currently, I just strive to read the Bible and believe it.

You don't explain how I am misapplying scripture.

friend of · May 19, 2019

Jason0047 said:
It only says those who were beheaded for Christ will live and reign with him a thousand years. Those who were beheaded for Christ need to be tested again because they missed out on the big test, which is the “blessed hope.” (The Pre-Trib Rapture). The rest of the dead (those who were not beheaded during the Tribulation) will live again after the thousand years is finished.

Okay, but then what about all the saints that have been partakers of that blessed hope? Surely they would be given authority to rule during the Millenial Kingdom as well? Wouldn't that make sense?

Also, where are all of those who were raptured at this time? Are they in heaven somewhere as opposed to being on earth with Christ himself, living and reiging in the MK?

I'm just putting what you're saying to the test here. Hope you dont mind. In another thread I was told that the Millenial Kingdom would take place in the heavenly realms and after the 1000 years New Jerusalem would descend onto the earth for the final battle of Gog Magog. That way, all the saints throughout time would be able to participate in judging sinners, Angel's and the like, instead of just those who found faith during the Tribulation (for which they were beheaded).

Does that all make sense?

friend of · May 19, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Also, on the New Earth (after the Millennium), New Jerusalem comes down from out of heaven like a bride adorned for her husband. New Jerusalem is more than just an empty city. New Jerusalem are a special kind of people and they will be adorned like a bride for her husband (Jesus).

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” (Revelation 21:2).

Just to reiterate, Christ is reiging in 1000 year kingdom on earth, yet the rest of His saints will... be in heaven? Away from the Lord? Will only those who came to faith at the very last hour be given the privilege of authority to judge nations and peoples and sinners and Angel's during the MK? Seems like many Holy saints would miss out on such a great time if they're not around.

One verse that comes to mind is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 " and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

Jonaitis · May 19, 2019

Butch5 said:
I don't think it changes it. However, which model of the atonement you hold will be affected differently.

Well, I know it will change the biblical view of the atonement. Disagree as you may, I will not argue it here.

Butch5 · May 20, 2019

Jonaitis said:
Well, I know it will change the biblical view of the atonement. Disagree as you may, I will not argue it here.

Biblical view of the atonement?

Bible Highlighter · May 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
You don't explain how I am misapplying scripture.

As you know, Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is merely talking about the physical realm only. Dead bodies cannot think or do anything. But in he spiritual realm, we learn that the rich-man was able to speak in the place of torments. This story told by Jesus (i.e. The Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man) is never said to be a metaphor. Some say this even a parable as an attempt to turn the story into fairy tale, but Jesus always told the truth. A fairy tale would be a story that is not exactly true. Also, all of Jesus's parables are merely real world examples. By pure statistical probability alone they more than likely happened at some point. They can happen in the real world. That's the point. So if the Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is fictional, then it would be the one and only fictional story Jesus told. But we know Jesus does not speak stories that are not real (Which is something that is not true, i.e. a lie), but Jesus speaks the truth. So the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is very real (Whether you want to accept that fact or not).

Bible Highlighter · May 20, 2019

friend of said:
Okay, but then what about all the saints that have been partakers of that blessed hope? Surely they would be given authority to rule during the Millenial Kingdom as well? Wouldn't that make sense?

Also, where are all of those who were raptured at this time? Are they in heaven somewhere as opposed to being on earth with Christ himself, living and reiging in the MK?

I'm just putting what you're saying to the test here. Hope you dont mind. In another thread I was told that the Millenial Kingdom would take place in the heavenly realms and after the 1000 years New Jerusalem would descend onto the earth for the final battle of Gog Magog. That way, all the saints throughout time would be able to participate in judging sinners, Angel's and the like, instead of just those who found faith during the Tribulation (for which they were beheaded).

Does that all make sense?

A simple reading of Revelation says that New Jerusalem descends after the New Earth is already revealed. The Millennium (1,000 year reign of Christ) is said to have happened before this. It says that they will LIVE and reign with Christ. This means the Millennium will be on the Earth and not in Heaven. It says those beheaded for Christ (is the focus of the kind of people) who will go through the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the Earth. Please keep in mind that confusion arises on this issue because many folks do not realize that there are TWO "New Heavens and New Earths" (i.e. the 1st one being the Millennium, and the 2nd one being the Final New Heavens and New Earth where there is no more pain, suffering, death, etc.).

You can see my New End Times Chronology in this thread here
(Which includes Scripture describing the Millennium, the New Earth, the Judgment, etc.):

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

Bible Highlighter · May 20, 2019

friend of said:
Just to reiterate, Christ is reiging in 1000 year kingdom on earth, yet the rest of His saints will... be in heaven? Away from the Lord? Will only those who came to faith at the very last hour be given the privilege of authority to judge nations and peoples and sinners and Angel's during the MK? Seems like many Holy saints would miss out on such a great time if they're not around.

One verse that comes to mind is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 " and so shall we ever be with the Lord"

I see this as the Pre-Trib Rapture of believers being up in Heaven with the Lord until the day they are physically resurrected to be with Him on the New Earth after the Earthly Millennium (or the 1,000 year reign of Christ on this Earth that is purified by fire). God's goal was always to be with man on the Earth and not up in Heaven. A 1,000 year reign of Christ in Heaven does not make any sense because He is already up there now reigning.

mmksparbud · May 20, 2019

Jason0047 said:
As you know, Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten."

This is merely talking about the physical realm only. Dead bodies cannot think or do anything. But in he spiritual realm, we learn that the rich-man was able to speak in the place of torments. This story told by Jesus (i.e. The Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man) is never said to be a metaphor. Some say this even a parable as an attempt to turn the story into fairy tale, but Jesus always told the truth. A fairy tale would be a story that is not exactly true. Also, all of Jesus's parables are merely real world examples. By pure statistical probability alone they more than likely happened at some point. They can happen in the real world. That's the point. So if the Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is fictional, then it would be the one and only fictional story Jesus told. But we know Jesus does not speak stories that are not real (Which is something that is not true, i.e. a lie), but Jesus speaks the truth. So the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is very real (Whether you want to accept that fact or not).

And where does it say that it applies only to the physical realm but not the spiritual realm? I did not say the story of Lazarus is a fairy tale, I said it is allegory. And Jesus plainly stated what the whole thing was about but everyone prefers to bypass it. whether you accept the fact or not---Jesus is clear about it.

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Bible Highlighter · May 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
And where does it say that it applies only to the physical realm but not the spiritual realm? I did not say the story of Lazarus is a fairy tale, I said it is allegory. And Jesus plainly stated what the whole thing was about but everyone prefers to bypass it. whether you accept the fact or not---Jesus is clear about it.

Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Ecclesiastes does not have to say that it only applies to the physical realm only. This is the conclusion we must draw in order for Scripture to not contradict itself.

As for your saying the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is allegory: Well, you believe it is a fictional story and not a real story, right? So this means it is a fairy tale and not a true story. Note: Fairy tales can have some elements of truth within them, but that does not make the story itself true.

As for your emphasizing Luke 16:31, it does not in any way prove that the story is allegorical. Metaphors in the Bible are usually pretty easy to spot. They sometimes use words such as "like," "as", or it gives us the clear allegorical meaning like in Revelation (See Revelation 1:20), etc.

BCsenior · May 20, 2019

Jason0047 said:
This is the conclusion we must draw in order for Scripture to not contradict itself.

Welcome back from your extended vacation
from the Forum, Jason!

mmksparbud · May 20, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Ecclesiastes does not have to say that it only applies to the physical realm only. This is the conclusion we must draw in order for Scripture to not contradict itself.

As for your saying the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is allegory: Well, you believe it is a fictional story and not a real story, right? So this means it is a fairy tale and not a true story. Note: Fairy tales can have some elements of truth within them, but that does not make the story itself true.

As for your emphasizing Luke 16:31, it does not in any way prove that the story is allegorical. Metaphors in the Bible are usually pretty easy to spot. They sometimes use words such as "like," "as", or it gives us the clear allegorical meaning like in Revelation (See Revelation 1:20), etc.

Scripture does not contradict itself. Anything that does seem to contradict must be read in accordance to all other scripture on the subject and also in accordance to the character of God. God is love, God is justice. If a theory goes against His character, then the theory is wrong. Everlasting burning hell is neither love nor justice. And immediately going to heaven or hell makes no sense in light of research on the word judgement.
Jas_2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2Pe_2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe_2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe_3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
1Jn_4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud_1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There are more. But there is a judgment and it is after the 1000 year. Jesus is now in he Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest---Just read Hebrews and Jesus is now pleading His blood for each sinner that has accepted Him. When He is done with that, He will say
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

It certainly makes no sense for Jesus to be in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest---and that when He is done, He will come and His reward is with Him to EVERYONE, according to His works---if that reward has already been given out at death!
]

Bible Highlighter · May 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Scripture does not contradict itself. Anything that does seem to contradict must be read in accordance to all other scripture on the subject and also in accordance to the character of God. God is love, God is justice. If a theory goes against His character, then the theory is wrong. Everlasting burning hell is neither love nor justice. And immediately going to heaven or hell makes no sense in light of research on the word judgement.
Jas_2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
1Pe_4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2Pe_2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe_2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe_3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
1Jn_4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud_1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Rev_14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There are more. But there is a judgment and it is after the 1000 year. Jesus is now in he Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest---Just read Hebrews and Jesus is now pleading His blood for each sinner that has accepted Him. When He is done with that, He will say
Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev_21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

It certainly makes no sense for Jesus to be in the Heavenly Sanctuary as our High Priest---and that when He is done, He will come and His reward is with Him to EVERYONE, according to His works---if that reward has already been given out at death!
]

I don't believe in Eternal Torment. I believe the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence after they are punished for a certain amount of time in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

As for hell: Well, I believe the wicked go through long periods of sleep in hell, and they are possibly awakened at key points in time. We know the rich-man was aware that he was in hell (and it appeared that he just arrived).

Now, I do not believe that the flames are like real Earthly flames that cause physical pain so as to make one scream. The rich-man was not screaming in pain so badly that he could not speak. This is what must be if the flames were of this Earth. So no. I don't believe hell is the torture chamber that churches make it out to be. While I am not sure of your view of hell, it sounds like you see hell as some kind of soul sleep. I see it as a partial soul sleep.

BCsenior · May 20, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I don't believe in Eternal Torment. I believe the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence after they are punished for a certain amount of time
in the Lake of Fire

Perhaps you should believe in Scripture ...

“rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.” (Matthew 18:8)

“Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41)

“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)

“he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” (Mark 3:29)

“These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

mmksparbud · May 20, 2019

Jason0047 said:
I don't believe in Eternal Torment. I believe the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence after they are punished for a certain amount of time in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).

As for hell: Well, I believe the wicked go through long periods of sleep in hell, and they are possibly awakened at key points in time. We know the rich-man was aware that he was in hell (and it appeared that he just arrived).

Now, I do not believe that the flames are like real Earthly flames that cause physical pain so as to make one scream. The rich-man was not screaming in pain so badly that he could not speak. This is what must be if the flames were of this Earth. So no. I don't believe hell is the torture chamber that churches make it out to be. While I am not sure of your view of hell, it sounds like you see hell as some kind of soul sleep. I see it as a partial soul sleep.

I do not see hell as any kind of soul sleep. I see death as what Jesus frequently called it---sleep. Hell is real, it is a matter of how long and when it starts. To go directly to heaven or hell makes no sense at all. Cain, who murdered once, would be in hell far longer than Hitler who murdered millions---that is simply not justice. Death is total sleep--nothing partial about it. We await our judgement which Jesus is in the process of deciding. When He is done, He returns for the saved. The saved dead are resurrected, the living saved, together with those resurrected are all gathered together and from that point on, are changed into their immortal bodies and spend eternity with Jesus, spending 1000 years in heaven with Jesus.The living lost are killed at His coming, the rest of the dead remain dead until after the 1000 years at which point they are resurrected to face their judgment---which is the 2nd death---that's why it's called the 2nd death 'cause that is what it is!

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The flames are very real---it is the origin of the flames that most people do not understand.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Exo_24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Isa_29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa_30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa_30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

mmksparbud · May 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I do not see hell as any kind of soul sleep. I see death as what Jesus frequently called it---sleep. Hell is real, it is a matter of how long and when it starts. To go directly to heaven or hell makes no sense at all. Cain, who murdered once, would be in hell far longer than Hitler who murdered millions---that is simply not justice. Death is total sleep--nothing partial about it. We await our judgement which Jesus is in the process of deciding. When He is done, He returns for the saved. The saved dead are resurrected, the living saved, together with those resurrected are all gathered together and from that point on, are changed into their immortal bodies and spend eternity with Jesus, spending 1000 years in heaven with Jesus.The living lost are killed at His coming, the rest of the dead remain dead until after the 1000 years at which point they are resurrected to face their judgment---which is the 2nd death---that's why it's called the 2nd death 'cause that is what it is!

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
2Pe_3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe_3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The flames are very real---it is the origin of the flames that most people do not understand.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Exo_24:17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Isa_29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Isa_30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa_30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Hell is not being covered by the blood of Jesus. He is the fire---as in the burning bush, as in Babylon in the fiery furnace, it is the saved of God that can stand in His presence and not be burned up for we are protected. The lost are not and will burn up in that fire.

Der Alte · May 20, 2019

mmksparbud said:
begin

<MM>And where does it say that it applies only to the physical realm but not the spiritual realm? I did not say the story of Lazarus is a fairy tale, I said it is allegory. And Jesus plainly stated what the whole thing was about but everyone prefers to bypass it. whether you accept the fact or not---Jesus is clear about it.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. <MM>

end

Once again you make a blanket assertion without explaining how you think it is correct. Your assumption about this passage hinges on one word "though." I have pointed out your error before but you ignored it.
The Greek work translated "though" is ἐάν/ean it is,

"a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty."

The same word is used in this verse.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever [ἐάν] therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This verse certainly does not say that nobody is going to break the least commandment. The word ean occurs 254 times in the NT and it never means something did not or is not going to happen.
Maybe you need to get yourself another proof text.

mmksparbud · May 20, 2019

Der Alter said:
<MM>And where does it say that it applies only to the physical realm but not the spiritual realm? I did not say the story of Lazarus is a fairy tale, I said it is allegory. And Jesus plainly stated what the whole thing was about but everyone prefers to bypass it. whether you accept the fact or not---Jesus is clear about it.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. <MM>
Once again you make a blanket assertion without explaining how you think it is correct. Your assumption about this passage hinges on one word "though." I have pointed out your error before but you ignored it.
The Greek work translated "though" is ἐάν/ean it is,

"a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty."
The same word is used in this verse.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever [ἐάν] therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
This verse certainly does not say that nobody is going to break the least commandment. The word ean occurs 254 times in the NT and it never means something did not or is not going to happen.
Maybe you need to get yourself another proof text.

You and I have never agreed on much!!

though
[T͟Hō]
CONJUNCTION

despite the fact that; although.
"though they were speaking in undertones, Philip could hear them"
synonyms:
although · in spite of the fact that · despite the fact that · even though ·
nevertheless · nonetheless · even so · however · be that as it may ·
[more]

New International Version
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

New Living Translation
“But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

English Standard Version
He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

Berean Study Bible
Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Berean Literal Bible
But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, not even will they be persuaded if one should rise out from the dead.'"

New American Standard Bible
"But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"

King James Bible
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Christian Standard Bible
"But he told him, 'If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"

Contemporary English Version
So Abraham said, "If they won't pay attention to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even to someone who comes back from the dead."

Good News Translation
But Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone were to rise from death.'"

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"But he told him, If they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.'"

International Standard Version
"Then Abraham told him, 'If your brothers do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even if someone were to rise from the dead.'"

NET Bible
He replied to him, 'If they do not respond to Moses and the prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"

New Heart English Bible
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if one rises from the dead.'"

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“Abraham said to him, 'If they will not hear Moses and The Prophets, they will not believe him, even though a man would rise from the dead.' “

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"Abraham answered him, 'If they won't listen to Moses' [Teachings] and the Prophets, they won't be persuaded even if someone comes back to life.'"

New American Standard 1977
“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And he said unto him, If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead.

King James 2000 Bible
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

American King James Version
And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

American Standard Version
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one rise from the dead.

οὐδ’*
oud’ not even Adv
ἐάν
ean if

ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 16:31 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ Εἰ Μωϋσέως καὶ τῶν προφητῶν οὐκ ἀκούουσιν, οὐδὲ ἐάν τις ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῇ πεισθήσονται
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 16:31 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort 1881
εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ Εἰ Μωυσέως καὶ τῶν προφητῶν οὐκ ἀκούουσιν, οὐδ' ἐάν τις ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῇ πεισθήσονται.
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 16:31 Greek NT: Westcott and Hort / [NA27 and UBS4 variants]
εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ Εἰ Μωυσέως καὶ τῶν προφητῶν οὐκ ἀκούουσιν, οὐδ' ἐάν τις ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῇ πεισθήσονται.
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 16:31 Greek NT: RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Εἴπεν δὲ αὐτῷ, Εἰ Μωσέως καὶ τῶν προφητῶν οὐκ ἀκούουσιν, οὐδέ, ἐάν τις ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῇ, πεισθήσονται.
ΚΑΤΑ ΛΟΥΚΑΝ 16:31 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
εἶπε δὲ αὐτῷ· εἰ Μωϋσέως καὶ τῶν προφητῶν οὐκ ἀκούουσιν, οὐδὲ ἐάν τις ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῇ πεισθήσονται.

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