Should churches be taxed?

blackribbon

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I think churches should be taxed.

They benefit from all the things taxes provide for everyone else. They should pay their own fair share of keeping things working.

However, if it helps, I don't think that of just churches. I think everyone should pay their fair share of keeping things up around here. And that includes wealthy people, corporations and non-profits. I get tired of carrying the load for all three of those groups.

What is everyone's fair share? Does a wealthy person use the roads, schools, or military more than a middle class person? Do you don't think that taxing charities would mean that they would be able to do less and more people would need those services provided by the government so increase the need for more taxes of everyone? And how much should the "rich" pay? As it is, the top 1% of taxpayers pays more than the bottom 90% combined. How much is their "fair share"? And corporations pay plenty of taxes....but you have to realize that their taxes come for the average joe's pocket in the way of increased prices of products and decreased wages of those that work there. A company has to make profit to stay in business.
 
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zephcom

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They have: Category:Defunct companies based in Texas - Wikipedia



If you want to go down that path, you'd better look at this. One of my beliefs is that people who think there are easy answers usually haven't spent my time engaging with the problem.
That would be -your- belief. I'm not under any obligation to agree with you.

My belief is that there ARE easy answers. There are just many people who automatically object to anything which they didn't think of first.

Or to put it another way, everyone likes a good ox goring competition until it is their ox that gets gored.

America has some very serious issues and they need serious remedies which will cause nearly everyone to have at at least a bit of their ox getting gored. Often the best way to deal with those issues is wipe the slate clean and start over.

That is my way of dealing with the taxation issue. It is simple, easy and effective. Everyone loses their favorite tax dodge, and everyone gains a tax system based on one single tax rate which can be filed on the back of a post card.

The voting issue was much different when the nation was created. No one had much faith in the abilities of citizens to make a 'wise' judgement. So the Founding Fathers created a way for government to 'fix' bad judgement on the part of the citizens.

America has a rather long history now of how well the judgement of the people performs. Every single elected position in America is selected by the popular vote except president. And the people are happy to live with 'their' decision.

Every time the Electoral College overrides the popular vote, those who 'won' and then 'lost' are upset. Our systems today are efficient enough that we no longer need to have Daddy Government protect us from ourselves.

Most often answers are easy. What is difficult is dealing with people who oppose anything just because they can.
 
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zephcom

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What is everyone's fair share? Does a wealthy person use the roads, schools, or military more than a middle class person? Do you don't think that taxing charities would mean that they would be able to do less and more people would need those services provided by the government so increase the need for more taxes of everyone? And how much should the "rich" pay? As it is, the top 1% of taxpayers pays more than the bottom 90% combined. How much is their "fair share"? And corporations pay plenty of taxes....but you have to realize that their taxes come for the average joe's pocket in the way of increased prices of products and decreased wages of those that work there. A company has to make profit to stay in business.

The wealthy one percent OWN more money than the bottom 90 percent. It was Jesus who said that those to whom more is given, more will be required.

MY idea is to tax everyone equally base on percentage of gross income. It is simple and hits everyone equally. Ten percent (or any other percentage) from someone making a $1,000 hits them as hard as ten percent does to someone making a billion dollars.

If you want to sit around and try to allocate every single gesture that government does to create the environment we call America, go ahead. We will come back in a thousand years and see how far you got.
 
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Resha Caner

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That would be -your- belief. I'm not under any obligation to agree with you.

I'm not sure which belief you're referring to. If you're referring to the 2016 election, Trump won according to the established rules. And the rules are what the rules are. Arguing for rules you like better doesn't change what the rules were in the 2016 election. If you're referring to the popular vote count, it was a statistical tie. If you're claiming anything else, you'll have to support it.

Most often answers are easy. What is difficult is dealing with people who oppose anything just because they can.

Dismissing people's reasons for preferring something you don't like doesn't magically make the situation easy. What you're saying amounts to: People would be easy to deal with if they weren't so difficult to deal with.
 
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zephcom

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I'm not sure which belief you're referring to. If you're referring to the 2016 election, Trump won according to the established rules. And the rules are what the rules are. Arguing for rules you like better doesn't change what the rules were in the 2016 election. If you're referring to the popular vote count, it was a statistical tie. If you're claiming anything else, you'll have to support it.



Dismissing people's reasons for preferring something you don't like doesn't magically make the situation easy. What you're saying amounts to: People would be easy to deal with if they weren't so difficult to deal with.
Polling has statistical ties. Actual balloting has winners and losers unless there is a REAL tie.

And no, I'm not whining about the 2016 election any more than I'm whining about EVERY SINGLE TIME the Electoral College over rode the popular vote. Just because there are rules does not mean the rules are just. I'm saying the easy answer to this is to just eliminate the Electoral College and future elections will work better.

People are free to not like my solutions. As yet, no one is suggesting anything else which is a better solution. Feel free to come up with a solution to the taxation mess we have.
 
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Resha Caner

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Polling has statistical ties. Actual balloting has winners and losers unless there is a REAL tie.

The rules vary all over the place regarding how close a vote count constitutes a tie. I don't know what you mean by a "real" tie, nor am I sure you understand my point.

I'm saying the easy answer to this is to just eliminate the Electoral College and future elections will work better.

Yeah, sure, everyone would be happy and stop complaining. Sounds a little naive to me. It would be different ... But better? ... Nah.

People are free to not like my solutions. As yet, no one is suggesting anything else which is a better solution. Feel free to come up with a solution to the taxation mess we have.

I don't think there is a "best" solution. They all have their problems. All I said was I'm OK with taxing churches as long as full constitutional changes are appropriately considered - and I have little faith that would be the case.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Would that go against separation of church and state? It would tax not only properties but school buildings and places that feed the poor.

Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s :)
 
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zephcom

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The rules vary all over the place regarding how close a vote count constitutes a tie. I don't know what you mean by a "real" tie, nor am I sure you understand my point.



Yeah, sure, everyone would be happy and stop complaining. Sounds a little naive to me. It would be different, but better ... nah.



I don't think there is a "best" solution. They all have their problems. All I said was I'm OK with taxing churches as long as full constitutional changes are appropriately considered - and I have little faith that would be the case.
And I said that I was happy to let the court system decide any Constitutional issues. THAT is the appropriate place to decide them.

The way that works is we change the tax laws so none of them are tax exempt anymore. A church or a group of churches file suit to overturn that change citing whatever Constitutional issues they think apply. The court system rules on the case. Likely it would end up in the Supreme Court and we would get a final ruling which can't be appealed.

The courts won't make a ruling until the laws are actually changed. And all along I've been happy to let that process take place.

On the voting issue, I think the rules vary all over the place about how close a vote is before a candidate can file for a recount. But the recount uses the same ballots and simply makes a more dedicated effort to ensure as accurate a count as possible. But in the end, only one candidate wins unless two candidates get exactly the same number of votes. And usually there is a law written on how to break a tie.

That is the meaning of 'every vote counts'. Some elections have been won by just one vote.

Finally, nothing is going to stop some people from complaining in a presidential election. But ridding ourselves of the Electoral College will also rid ourselves of the gross injustice the Electoral College is prone to. And by 'gross injustice' I mean things like 2016 election where one candidate gets 3,000,000 more votes than the other and still loses. It wasn't even close in an age where ballots are counted electronically.

Why should anyone even bother to vote when that kind of thing is the 'rule' and we just keep on following the 'rule' like lemmings running to the sea.
 
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RDKirk

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Taxed on what? What people donate to them? The government taxes on products and services that people are paid for. We don't pay to go to church...what we give has already been taxed when WE earned it.

If a church makes or sells a product, then that might deserved to be taxed ... but again, it would have to be made and sold by paid employees and not by volunteers...

Churches are taxed on profits from sales, such as books sold in church bookstores, just like any other business.
 
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RDKirk

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First of all, I would say that if one is giving to their church just for taxation benefits, they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

But taxes are not based on whether something (be it money or product) has been taxed already or not. Taxes are based on transfers of ownership. For instance, your employer pays taxes on the money he earns by selling product or services. He uses the money -he- paid taxes on to pay you for the work you do for him. And YOU pay taxes on the money you get from him that he paid taxes on.

That is the way taxes work. Government would go broke (broker?) if money and products were only taxed once.

When a transfer of ownership of money or product occurs, it -should- always trigger a new round of taxation. Sadly, government sometimes think that certain situations (ie. wealthy people, religious institutions and charitable groups) warrants a forgiveness of taxation.

I disagree with that stance. Those classes use the services provided by government and should pay their share of the cost for those services. Taxes should include everyone instead of just the working poor and middle class.

You're thinking of a VAT. Sorry, the US does not do VAT. That is not the way US taxes work.

Thanks for playing, though.
 
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Resha Caner

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And I said that I was happy to let the court system decide any Constitutional issues. THAT is the appropriate place to decide them.

Mmm. Sort of. Judicial review is not an explicit constitutional power of the courts.

[edit] But if you're OK with letting decisions from SCOTUS stand, as I pointed out earlier, taxation has already been decided as an infringement on free excercise (Walz vs. Tax Commission of the City of New York, 1970).

Likely it would end up in the Supreme Court and we would get a final ruling which can't be appealed.

It can. There is nothing to prevent a later court from overturning an earlier court. Further, the original method of dealing with such things was an amendment, and that remains a way to appeal a SCOTUS ruling.

But in the end, only one candidate wins unless two candidates get exactly the same number of votes.

Not true. As I said, the rules vary from state to state. In some elections the difference has to be less than a certain percentage of votes to count as a tie.

For example, if the law were 0.1% and the vote was 10009 to 10000, that would count as a tie.

Finally, nothing is going to stop some people from complaining in a presidential election. But ridding ourselves of the Electoral College will also rid ourselves of the gross injustice the Electoral College is prone to. And by 'gross injustice' I mean things like 2016 election where one candidate gets 3,000,000 more votes than the other and still loses. It wasn't even close in an age where ballots are counted electronically.

I already pointed you to the statistics. Just because you think 3,000,000 is a big number doesn't mean the difference was enough to indicate a popular winner. My point in the post you supposedly read was that people were changing their minds so rapidly that the count (and supposed popular winner) would have been different if it had been held a few days sooner or later.

Regardless, the injustice you speak of is only in your mind. Tell me, do you prefer a federal structure for a nation or a more republican approach?
 
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zephcom

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Mmm. Sort of. Judicial review is not an explicit constitutional power of the courts.



It can. There is nothing to prevent a later court from overturning an earlier court. Further, the original method of dealing with such things was an amendment, and that remains a way to appeal a SCOTUS ruling.



Not true. As I said, the rules vary from state to state. In some elections the difference has to be less than a certain percentage of votes to count as a tie.

For example, if the law were 0.1% and the vote was 10009 to 10000, that would count as a tie.




I already pointed you to the statistics. Just because you think 3,000,000 is a big number doesn't mean the difference was enough to indicate a popular winner. My point in the post you supposedly read was that people were changing their minds so rapidly that the count (and supposed popular winner) would have been different if it had been held a few days sooner or later.

Regardless, the injustice you speak of is only in your mind. Tell me, do you prefer a federal structure for a nation or a more republican approach?

Since shortly after the Constitution was adopted, the Supreme Court has been recognized as the final adjudicator of what is Constitutional or not. And I am still happy to allow them to perform that duty. I can't imagine where one would find a final adjudication for a law in any other institution of our government.

Of course one court can change the ruling of a past court. And certainly an Amendment can be written should a court rule differently than the population desires. But there is no need to write an amendment if the agrees a law is Constitutional. AGAIN, I'm happy to allow the court to rule on the issue.

In STATE elections various states can have whatever rules they like. In a National Election like the president is, we all need to play by one rule. And certainly any amendment ridding us of the Electoral College (and that WOULD have to be an Amendment) can easily deal with that issue.

Finally, I prefer a structure which actually functions as a national government. Look at this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

That is the part of the Declaration of Independence we all remember. But look at the part that follows:

— That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

We not only have the right to change or overthrow our government but the DUTY to do that according to our own Declaration of Independence. At this point I'm suggesting that we should be making the changes that we...as those who consented to be governed...have the right to do.

The Electoral College is something that needs to go in a day and age where the popular vote can be accurately determined. The taxation system is insufferably complex and nowhere near fair. We, as a people, have both the right and duty to change that and any other things we feel needs to be changed.

I'm happy to just make the changes needed to bring the current government into the modern age. But I'm also aware that under the declaration of freedom which resulted in the current government I still have rights and duties in regard to the government I've consented to govern me and my fellow citizens.

I'm not making threats. I merely point out that America is not cast in stone. The Founders of the nation understood that changing times and changing conditions will need a government which can also change.

Frankly, I think that we, if we are to compete on a world stage, need to be willing to move away from the concept that each state is an independent 'nation' joined together for a very limited number of reasons. We need to become a single nation rather than a bunch of states fighting each other.

And I have no idea which, if either, of the political camps you mention that falls into. I don't do that kind of labeling.
 
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zephcom

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Churches are taxed on profits from sales, such as books sold in church bookstores, just like any other business.

Churches can be taxed on anything just like the rest of us. There are income taxes, which donations would fall under. There are property taxes which buildings and land would fall under. There are sales taxes which churches may or may not be required to pay already.

Anyway the rest of us can be taxed, churches should be included.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Since shortly after the Constitution was adopted, the Supreme Court has been recognized as the final adjudicator of what is Constitutional or not. And I am still happy to allow them to perform that duty.
Churches can be taxed on anything just like the rest of us.

Oh, according to the constitution a church is free from taxation. (this is not Jesus' instruction, nor Biblical)
The main trouble (serious trouble) they get in is IF they file a contract with the government (a contract is not required, or used to not be required)
that was designed to PREVENT preaching and living the Gospel of Jesus.
 
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RDKirk

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Churches can be taxed on anything just like the rest of us. There are income taxes, which donations would fall under. There are property taxes which buildings and land would fall under. There are sales taxes which churches may or may not be required to pay already.

Anyway the rest of us can be taxed, churches should be included.

Donations are not "income," by definition. You don't see the value of a non-profit organization--you're entitled to your opinion and you're entitled to voice your opinion.

Everyone else is entitled to ignore it.
 
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Resha Caner

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In STATE elections various states can have whatever rules they like. In a National Election like the president is, we all need to play by one rule.

You want a national voting method, but currently that is not required. The method for selecting electors is currently left to the states.

Finally, I prefer a structure which actually functions as a national government.

I'm not much of a patriot. I've traveled enough to know my life in the U.S. is easy (in terms of finance, security, infrastructure); I'm grateful to those who made it that way, and I'm not anxious to throw it away. But I'm not particularly fond of our political structure. If I had my choice, I'd go the opposite direction from you - more local autonomy.
 
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zephcom

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Donations are not "income," by definition. You don't see the value of a non-profit organization--you're entitled to your opinion and you're entitled to voice your opinion.

Everyone else is entitled to ignore it.

Of course everyone is allowed their opinion, even the IRS:

Cancer survivor gets $19,000 tax bill for GoFundMe donations

I'm certainly not a tax accountant, but I would suspect that personal gifts are not taxable to the recipient means that gifts given to an organization which is not designated as tax exempt...like churches should they lose their tax exemption...would be taxable income because they are not 'people'.

But clearly someone with a higher pay grade than me would need to make a ruling. It is a good thing we have courts to do that.
 
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zephcom

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You want a national voting method, but currently that is not required. The method for selecting electors is currently left to the states.



I'm not much of a patriot. I've traveled enough to know my life in the U.S. is easy (in terms of finance, security, infrastructure); I'm grateful to those who made it that way, and I'm not anxious to throw it away. But I'm not particularly fond of our political structure. If I had my choice, I'd go the opposite direction from you - more local autonomy.

Everyone has their own opinion on things like that. My thoughts are as the planet gets more and more people on it, it gets harder and harder for local autonomy to function.

When I was a youngster, 60-70 years ago, there was a lot more space between people because there was far fewer people in the same space. We could drive fast because there wasn't a car every hundred feet. Freeways actually functioned in the big city because they were designed for fewer people.

It was easier to over-look the little things people did to irritate because there were fewer people to do those things.

Given the current practices which go on today and no real attempt to change them, we will only be packing more and more people onto the planet. As one packs more people closer together, the need for organization and rules becomes more necessary.

If I thought local autonomy would be functional in another 20-30 years I would favor it too. I kind of miss the way things were when I was a kid. But without aggressively reducing human populations, that won't happen again. And to aggressively reduce human population one needs a strong central government to enforce the methods of reducing the population.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. One can't have local autonomy and an ever increasing population. They don't work together. As the distance between you and me gets closer and closer the need for universal rules for all gets greater and greater.

But, hey. I hope you find Mayberry. There are probably pockets in America where it exists yet. Just understand, that isn't sustainable unless the population is drastically and rapidly decreased.

When I was a teenager, America's population was about 150-180 million people. It is over 320 million today with no decrease in sight.
 
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blackribbon

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First of all, I would say that if one is giving to their church just for taxation benefits, they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

But taxes are not based on whether something (be it money or product) has been taxed already or not. Taxes are based on transfers of ownership. For instance, your employer pays taxes on the money he earns by selling product or services. He uses the money -he- paid taxes on to pay you for the work you do for him. And YOU pay taxes on the money you get from him that he paid taxes on.

That is the way taxes work. Government would go broke (broker?) if money and products were only taxed once.

When a transfer of ownership of money or product occurs, it -should- always trigger a new round of taxation. Sadly, government sometimes think that certain situations (ie. wealthy people, religious institutions and charitable groups) warrants a forgiveness of taxation.

I disagree with that stance. Those classes use the services provided by government and should pay their share of the cost for those services. Taxes should include everyone instead of just the working poor and middle class.

Actually, a person buying product to sell (wholesale to be sold as retail) is not charged sales tax. Sales tax is paid only on retail...product paid to the end user. Taxes are not based on transfer of ownership. We do protect from taxing on taxed goods.
 
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blackribbon

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Of course everyone is allowed their opinion, even the IRS:

Cancer survivor gets $19,000 tax bill for GoFundMe donations

I'm certainly not a tax accountant, but I would suspect that personal gifts are not taxable to the recipient means that gifts given to an organization which is not designated as tax exempt...like churches should they lose their tax exemption...would be taxable income because they are not 'people'.

But clearly someone with a higher pay grade than me would need to make a ruling. It is a good thing we have courts to do that.

Gifts are not taxed until you get to a certain level. And I believe that GoFundMe gifts are considered a single donation so taxable income above a certain level. If each donation was given directly to the recipient, unless they were over the max allowed, then the cancer patient wouldn't have been taxed.
 
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