The Danger Of Creedal Thinking (Trinity oversimplification)

Daniel9v9

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A creed is nothing other than a confession or statement of faith. Every church body has creeds, whether they recognise or not. The Ecumenical Creeds, however, are simply brief summaries of what Scripture says. They don't hold any divine authority in and of themselves, but they certainly do point to Scripture and truthfully reflect what God's Word says.
 
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Grip Docility

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What God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart will help show how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture.



Gratitude. To have this posted here is deeply appreciated.
 
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GodsGrace101

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True... but remember to some, even Dort, extra biblical “prophets” and later theologians words become creeds (hint)
Agreed. I'll go so far as to say that some believe their DOCTRINE saves them and not God.
Jesus died to save us from our sin nature and our bondage to satan...but I've been told I'm going straight to hell because I believe in works and am not trusting in Jesus. When I read the bible it's chock full of exhortations to do good works...this does NOT mean that I'm depending on my works to save myself -- just that I like to be a disciple.



If they “witness”, they need to up their game.
Happily, they don't witness. And if they do, it's about their church and not our Lord.

If they have “confessed with their mouth that Jesus Is Lord”... and “Believe in their Heart that God Raised Him from the Dead”... they’re good to go Salvationaly... whatever other requirements they think “help”... is between them and God. (A little tongue in cheek I hope you’ll catch)
Yes, I'm not God to judge, but I do believe they're saved.

Only one “Man” understands it... (More tongue-in-cheek humor I hope you gather.)

And sincerely... 3 fantastic comments / questions at that.

More... more... more! Well articulated! :D

I did want to comment on your statement about some baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...and some in the name of Jesus.

The correct formula for baptism is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as Jesus commanded.

To my understanding - in the name of Jesus - just meant that we are NOW to baptize in the name of Jesus and not in the name of John since their baptisms are different....Jesus takes precedence.
(Acts 2:38).
 
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Grip Docility

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Agreed. I'll go so far as to say that some believe their DOCTRINE saves them and not God.
Jesus died to save us from our sin nature and our bondage to satan...but I've been told I'm going straight to hell because I believe in works and am not trusting in Jesus. When I read the bible it's chock full of exhortations to do good works...this does NOT mean that I'm depending on my works to save myself -- just that I like to be a disciple.

Amen

Happily, they don't witness. And if they do, it's about their church and not our Lord.

I caught that... Laugh and cry emoji!

Yes, I'm not God to judge, but I do believe they're saved.

Amen!

I did want to comment on your statement about some baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit...and some in the name of Jesus.

The correct formula for baptism is in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, as Jesus commanded.

To my understanding - in the name of Jesus - just meant that we are NOW to baptize in the name of Jesus and not in the name of John since their baptisms are different....Jesus takes precedence.
(Acts 2:38).

May I throw some other passages your way to press this matter for simple discussion and scripture search?
 
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GodsGrace101

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What God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart will help show how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture.


This is a great post...
I do have to question no. 5.

If Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God...
How can there be subordination?

Did one exist before the other?
Is one more of a God than the other two?
Is the Holy Spirit subordinate to the Father and Son because He "proceeds" from them?

I know the Godhead is difficult to understand...
but could you clarify point no. 5?
If not, it's OK.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Amen



I caught that... Laugh and cry emoji!



Amen!



May I throw some other passages your way to press this matter for simple discussion and scripture search?
Throw away.
Must start dinner soon, but I'll be back.
 
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Grip Docility

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Throw away.
Must start dinner soon, but I'll be back.

Look at Romans 10:9 then Romans 10:13

Within Romans 10:13, use topical study tools to find out what usage of “Lord” is being used there.

It’s a rather eye opening verse that sheds further light on how deeply the Apostolic Early Church Reverenced Jesus’ Name.

When you think you’ve found it, I’m interested in hearing your opinion on it.
 
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Mathetes66

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Most all the early creeds came from Scripture & were worded in such a way as to COMBAT the many heresies & heretical teachers that kept popping up & distorting the teachings of the faith, the deposit of faith that was passed down, even to us today. They don't replace Scripture, but more accurately define it in contrast to the distortions, adding to or taking away from Scripture.

And we need MORE than the 66 books of Scripture. The Lord Himself must open our minds to understand the revelation of God. The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of our heart & spirit to bring God's revelation to us in the Scriptures. They are spiritually discerned.

And Jesus Himself made a clear distinction between the written Word & the Living Word:

John 5:39,40 You diligently search the Scriptures because you think to have eternal life in them & these are they bearing witness concerning Me; yet you are not willing to come to Me in order to have life.

The written Word of God, the revelation of God is alive BECAUSE the Living God is alive.
 
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Grip Docility

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Most all the early creeds came from Scripture & were worded in such a way as to COMBAT the many heresies & heretical teachers that kept popping up & distorting the teachings of the faith, the deposit of faith that was passed down, even to us today. They don't replace Scripture, but more accurately define it in contrast to the distortions, adding to or taking away from Scripture.

And we need MORE than the 66 books of Scripture. The Lord Himself must open our minds to understand the revelation of God. The Holy Spirit opens the eyes of our heart & spirit to bring God's revelation to us in the Scriptures. They are spiritually discerned.

And Jesus Himself made a clear distinction between the written Word & the Living Word:

John 5:39,40 You diligently search the Scriptures because you think to have eternal life in them & these are they bearing witness concerning Me; yet you are not willing to come to Me in order to have life.

The written Word of God, the revelation of God is alive BECAUSE the Living God is alive.

1 John 2:27 and John 5:39-40. Are two of my favorite passages. I see this in your words, as well.

As for combating of genuine Contestation Of Essential Doctrines, I see the purpose of the super dee super short and sweet, VERY early Creeds, yet maintain that people who don’t rely on Study of Scripture with the promise of (1 John 2:27) and simply refer to the creeds are locked into a tunnel vision of sorts that leaves them void of the big picture.
 
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Grip Docility

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You're welcome.

I want to clarify... I well know writings of the different Fathers of Trinitarian Theology.

I, too, reject the writings that make the God Head a co-Council Of Three Being’s.

I utilize “TriUnitarian” for the purpose of emphasizing the Deuteronomy 6:4 of the matter, as many are shocked when passages are shown that bring it all back to the Oneness of God.

That is my reason, not to over distinguish Persona... but to emphasize that He is utterly Une, as well as He is Three.

I hope that makes some sense in the discussion.
 
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AvgJoe

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This is a great post...
I do have to question no. 5.

If Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God...
How can there be subordination?

Did one exist before the other?
Is one more of a God than the other two?
Is the Holy Spirit subordinate to the Father and Son because He "proceeds" from them?

I know the Godhead is difficult to understand...
but could you clarify point no. 5?
If not, it's OK.

I'll hand that one over to the Got Questions website, as they've done a good job of explaining it:


Question: "How can there be subordination / hierarchy in the Trinity?"

Answer:
It may sound strange to speak of subordination within the Trinity. After all, Jesus and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Subordination makes us think of a lower rank or a subservient position. To understand how there can be subordination in the Trinity, it is important to understand that there are different types of subordination. The biblical or orthodox view of the triune nature of God acknowledges an economic subordination in the Trinity but denies the heretical view of an ontological subordination.

What does this mean? Simply that all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same divine nature and divine attributes. Contrary to the teaching of many cults, there is no ontological subordination (no difference in the nature of the three Persons of the Godhead). This means that the Trinity is not comprised of greater and lesser gods; rather, there is one God existing eternally in three co-equal Persons.

What the Bible does teach is an economic (or relational) subordination within the Trinity. The three Persons of the triune Godhead voluntarily submit to each other respecting the roles They perform in creation and salvation. So, the Father sent the Son into the world (1 John 4:10). These roles are never reversed in Scripture: the Son never sends the Father. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus and “proceeds from the Father” to testify of Christ (John 14:26; 15:26). And Jesus perfectly submitted His will to the Father’s (Luke 22:42; Hebrews 10:7).

Economic or relational subordination is simply a term to describe the relationship that exists among God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Essentially, economic subordination within the Trinity refers to what God does while ontological subordination refers to who God is.

Biblically, all three Persons of the Trinity have the same essence, nature, and glory, but each One has different roles or activities when it comes to how God relates to the world. For example, our salvation is based on the Father’s power and love (John 3:16; 10:29), the Son’s death and resurrection (1 John 2:2; Ephesians 2:6), and the Spirit’s regeneration and seal (Ephesians 4:30; Titus 3:5). The different tasks that we see the Father, Son, and Spirit perform are the result of the eternal relationship that exists among the Persons of the Trinity.

The issue of subordination within the Trinity is nuanced, and the distinction between ontological and economic subordination is fine indeed. Theologians within Christian orthodoxy continue to debate the limits of subordination and its relation to the Incarnation of Christ. Such discussions are profitable as we study the Scriptures and think through the truth about the nature of God.

www.gotquestions.org/subordination-Trinity.html
 
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Grip Docility

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I'll hand that one over to the Got Questions website, as they've done a good job of explaining it:


Question: "How can there be subordination / hierarchy in the Trinity?"

Answer:
It may sound strange to speak of subordination within the Trinity. After all, Jesus and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Subordination makes us think of a lower rank or a subservient position. To understand how there can be subordination in the Trinity, it is important to understand that there are different types of subordination. The biblical or orthodox view of the triune nature of God acknowledges an economic subordination in the Trinity but denies the heretical view of an ontological subordination.

What does this mean? Simply that all three Persons of the Godhead are equal in nature. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit all have the same divine nature and divine attributes. Contrary to the teaching of many cults, there is no ontological subordination (no difference in the nature of the three Persons of the Godhead). This means that the Trinity is not comprised of greater and lesser gods; rather, there is one God existing eternally in three co-equal Persons.

What the Bible does teach is an economic (or relational) subordination within the Trinity. The three Persons of the triune Godhead voluntarily submit to each other respecting the roles They perform in creation and salvation. So, the Father sent the Son into the world (1 John 4:10). These roles are never reversed in Scripture: the Son never sends the Father. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is sent by Jesus and “proceeds from the Father” to testify of Christ (John 14:26; 15:26). And Jesus perfectly submitted His will to the Father’s (Luke 22:42; Hebrews 10:7).

Economic or relational subordination is simply a term to describe the relationship that exists among God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Essentially, economic subordination within the Trinity refers to what God does while ontological subordination refers to who God is.

Biblically, all three Persons of the Trinity have the same essence, nature, and glory, but each One has different roles or activities when it comes to how God relates to the world. For example, our salvation is based on the Father’s power and love (John 3:16; 10:29), the Son’s death and resurrection (1 John 2:2; Ephesians 2:6), and the Spirit’s regeneration and seal (Ephesians 4:30; Titus 3:5). The different tasks that we see the Father, Son, and Spirit perform are the result of the eternal relationship that exists among the Persons of the Trinity.

The issue of subordination within the Trinity is nuanced, and the distinction between ontological and economic subordination is fine indeed. Theologians within Christian orthodoxy continue to debate the limits of subordination and its relation to the Incarnation of Christ. Such discussions are profitable as we study the Scriptures and think through the truth about the nature of God.

www.gotquestions.org/subordination-Trinity.html

No Live discussion on this? Frowney Face. :p
 
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DamianWarS

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I’m not going to create an OP with all the possible verses that could be used, but simply address a matter that I’ve come across too many times.

In simplicity... Many Denominations attempt to define the TriUnity Of God in all sorts of ways that impact the “Person’s” of the TriUnity.

I’m going to put this as real as I can. The early church isn’t defined by post John the Revelator’s students that carried forward Canonical, 66 book Chain Of custody.

The Early Church is what we see IN Scripture.

Now, that being said... When did the Early Church start?

There are views that contend over this matter. I could list about every place people argue it started from the 12 Apostles with Jesus to various passages in the book of Acts...

Who’s right? Depends on the personal view of whomever you ask!

But as for the TriUnity Of God, the Apostles are recorded as Baptizing two different ways and the reason this is recorded is to drive home a biblical Mystery.

Way one: In the Name Of the Father, In the Name Of the Son and in the Name Of the Holy Spirit.

Way two: In the Name Of Jesus.

You can find this in the Gospels and Acts.

Paul attributes the Name “Jesus” to the Tetragrammaton... in Romans 10

Philippians 2 tells us the highest name of names recorded in all of scripture.

Creeds that cry “Heresy” whenever their vain humanly contrived Philosophical extrapolations are contested have caused a Literal ignorance and dependence on such creeds within much of the collective BOC.

If the TriUnity Of God is to be “Learned”, it must be done in scripture and nowhere else!

If a believer only understands the Trinity, they have half the picture as the Early Church did not define a Trinity, but a TriUnity.

The very word Trinity is a shortened way of saying Triunity.

I’ll drop 2 Verses to drive my point home...

(Deuteronomy 6:4)
(1 John 5:7)

This is mega important to comprehend, because God’s greatest gift to us was created on Calvary, Packaged in the Tomb that “Joseph of Arimathea” placed Jesus’ Body in, and Fully cleared paid in full for Shipping Charges and Price on the Third day, when Jesus arose victorious over “Death”.

Tampering with any fact that, the Spiritual Marriage Of Creator And Creation, in Jesus, the Son Of God, The fullness of the Godhead Bodily, Died, Was Buried And Resurrected.... in any way shape or form, Destroys the power of the Gospel towards humanity.

Some people may never search out how to scripturally Prove that God is Three and those Three are uncompromisingly One, and that’s okay... but if a person desires to assist others and they are simply under the teachings of a creed of some sort, without intensive Biblical searching and study... they should probably either get hot and study, or leave that subject attached to an “I believe” button of sorts and refrain from commenting on the matter.
We don't allow scripture to show us Jesus is God or God is a trinity naturally, we don't search for it or discover it's revelation, and this is because we already know the answer. It is a bias we apply to scripture not a question and this is developed through these early creeds and councils.

Creedal thinking is innate and even if you don't know a single one their product is what probably has developed your doctrine. For the vast majority of us it's probably not even possible to approach scripture without a form of creedal thinking.
 
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GingerBeer

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The creeds are statements of faith, they are what Christians confessed as their belief about God and Jesus Christ and the church. The creeds do not define the holy trinity but they do exclude numerous heresies.
 
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Grip Docility

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We don't allow scripture to show us Jesus is God or God is a trinity naturally, we don't search for it or discover it's revelation, and this is because we already know the answer. It is a bias we apply to scripture not a question and this is developed through these early creeds and councils.

Creedal thinking is innate and even if you don't know a single one their product is what probably has developed your doctrine. For the vast majority of us it's probably not even possible to approach scripture without a form of creedal thinking.

I have to be ornery and disagree with you, here.

It wasn’t until earlier in my life that I cast aside all brick and mortar teaching, that I started to read the book of John and SEE Who He Is.

I’m a pretty average person, so I’m gonna throw the Old not so flag on that one.
 
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Grip Docility

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The creeds are statements of faith, they are what Christians confessed as their belief about God and Jesus Christ and the church. The creeds do not define the holy trinity but they do exclude numerous heresies.

On Heresies... What Creed defines these Heresies, in your opinion? What year was it drafted? Who drafted it?
 
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I think Creedal thinking is deeply needed.... even non-denom churches and Messianic / Torah observant communities tend to have statements / summaries of faith. It's just something that we, as humans, tend to do, and spiritually, it's important to summarize what is true, and why.
 
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