The Danger Of Creedal Thinking (Trinity oversimplification)

Grip Docility said:

I’m not going to create an OP with all the possible verses that could be used, but simply address a matter that I’ve come across too many times.

In simplicity... Many Denominations attempt to define the TriUnity Of God in all sorts of ways that impact the “Person’s” of the TriUnity.

I’m going to put this as real as I can. The early church isn’t defined by post John the Revelator’s students that carried forward Canonical, 66 book Chain Of custody.

The Early Church is what we see IN Scripture.

Now, that being said... When did the Early Church start?

There are views that contend over this matter. I could list about every place people argue it started from the 12 Apostles with Jesus to various passages in the book of Acts...

Who’s right? Depends on the personal view of whomever you ask!

But as for the TriUnity Of God, the Apostles are recorded as Baptizing two different ways and the reason this is recorded is to drive home a biblical Mystery.

Way one: In the Name Of the Father, In the Name Of the Son and in the Name Of the Holy Spirit.

Way two: In the Name Of Jesus.

You can find this in the Gospels and Acts.

Paul attributes the Name “Jesus” to the Tetragrammaton... in Romans 10

Philippians 2 tells us the highest name of names recorded in all of scripture.

Creeds that cry “Heresy” whenever their vain humanly contrived Philosophical extrapolations are contested have caused a Literal ignorance and dependence on such creeds within much of the collective BOC.

If the TriUnity Of God is to be “Learned”, it must be done in scripture and nowhere else!

If a believer only understands the Trinity, they have half the picture as the Early Church did not define a Trinity, but a TriUnity.

The very word Trinity is a shortened way of saying Triunity.

I’ll drop 2 Verses to drive my point home...

(Deuteronomy 6:4)
(1 John 5:7)

This is mega important to comprehend, because God’s greatest gift to us was created on Calvary, Packaged in the Tomb that “Joseph of Arimathea” placed Jesus’ Body in, and Fully cleared paid in full for Shipping Charges and Price on the Third day, when Jesus arose victorious over “Death”.

Tampering with any fact that, the Spiritual Marriage Of Creator And Creation, in Jesus, the Son Of God, The fullness of the Godhead Bodily, Died, Was Buried And Resurrected.... in any way shape or form, Destroys the power of the Gospel towards humanity.

Some people may never search out how to scripturally Prove that God is Three and those Three are uncompromisingly One, and that’s okay... but if a person desires to assist others and they are simply under the teachings of a creed of some sort, without intensive Biblical searching and study... they should probably either get hot and study, or leave that subject attached to an “I believe” button of sorts and refrain from commenting on the matter.

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The Ecumenical Creeds = Christianity. Now it is true denominations add to these claiming their own take on other doctrines. But Christianity = scripture understood in the Ecumenical creeds.

Whenever I got before the commander to brief him on whatever I thought was so important that he should know it, the first thing I had to tell him was: How will this information affect how he executes the mission given him by higher headquarters?

One commander stressed: "Tell me about my opportunities and my vulnerabilities." Is my information going to help him get the lead over the enemy? Is my information going to strengthen his defenses against the enemy?

If the information would not in some way affect what he had to do, he wasn't interested, except maybe as bedside reading.

Grip Docility said:

I follow what you are saying. But even those creeds are lacking.

They’re cliff-notes that were hashed out, fine tuned and distributed to compensate for the unavailability of Canon to people, and set forth in response to Minor, Semi and Major - Arian Conspiracies and the like.

Cannon, too was hashed out to discard forgeries and contestable Books/Epistles.

They hold Value... no doubt... but to be precise... Canon is the focus.

In today’s world of easy access to Scripture, via the Internet... the Meat of the matter must detach from Creeds and be saturated with Scripture, Alone.

Countries where Bibles are illegal... are fantastic places for creeds... but where access to all 66 books is available... Scripture, guided by the very Spirit of the “Word” (Romans 8:9 ; 1 John 2:27)... Canon is King.... and Creeds are not to be focused on for Deeper Scriptural Study.

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Seriously, we display an unhealthy amount of hubris when we critique the Ecumenical Creeds after all the testing that went into them.

Grip Docility said:

No Pride. The 66 books are more than enough. 2 Timothy 3:16 makes this clear.

Even disputes over Creeds occur.

My point wasn’t to offend individuals that appreciate the creeds, though I’m sure I was aware of the possibility... But to point out that many Christians rely on creeds, in place of Scripture.

You don’t study Scripture to proof creeds, I hope.

I hope you study Scripture per 1 John 2:27 and cast all other references aside from the 66 books.

Do we disagree on this?

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Like I said, it takes an overweening view of one's self to critique the ECs.......

Godwin's Law invoked.....

Grip Docility said:

If the TriUnity Of God is to be “Learned”, it must be done in scripture and nowhere else!

If a believer only understands the Trinity, they have half the picture as the Early Church did not define a Trinity, but a TriUnity.

Click to expand...

The mistake here lies with trying to square the word TriUnity with the Biblical assertion that there is only one god.

There is no question but that the early Christians continued to believe in there being only one God, not three of them, not a committee of three co-workers, and not a god who warped into different entities as needed for the occasion. In time, people who wrestled with the issue came up with all those theories and more, but not the earliest Christians.

Grip Docility said:

Ahem... Cough Cough (Isaiah 9:6)

Savvy?

If a TriUnity Discussion Breaks out... I’m fine with it.

You clearly believe Jesus was the manifestation of YHWH. No problem. Paul agrees.

We know the Son experienced Full Blown Thanatos Death... yet God the Father Remained living.

We know Jesus had to go away for the (Romans 8:9) to come at Pentecost.

Are we in agreement on these matters?

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I believe that God is one being in three persona. the Father is God, the Son is God, and the HS is God, but there is only one God. All of the persons are eternal and from before time.

That is the only perspective which accords with Scripture. By the way, it may also be the only one that is allowed to be discussed here on this forum.

Hi GD,
Two comments ....

1. The creeds were written so we could know what a Christian MUST believe in order to be called a Christian.

2. Some Christians I know do not read the bible...and they DO depend on the creed. They feel it's enough to know that and to attend church and pray.

3. Do you think anyone really understands the Godhead?

(OK, 3 comments).

Grip Docility said:

If the TriUnity Of God is to be “Learned”, it must be done in scripture and nowhere else!

Some people may never search out how to scripturally Prove that God is Three and those Three are uncompromisingly One, and that’s okay...

Click to expand...

What God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart will help show how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture.