The Tree and it's Fruits, the Toronto Blessing?

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
It would be good if you could look into Bonnke and Kolenda and quote prayers to contrast with their phony gifts and make an example.

The gifts do not exist today. The prayer of faith does.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
The gifts do not exist today. The prayer of faith does.

So if Bonnke in times past, mentioned an illness that was being healed, he prayed beforehand, pretended to know as by a gift on the pulpit, and got it right, and someone was healed of just that illness and the crown cheered, believed God and many turned to receive Jesus? And like this are they falling away?

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
So if Bonnke in times past, mentioned an illness that was being healed, he prayed beforehand, pretended to know as by a gift on the pulpit, and got it right, and someone was healed of just that illness and the crown cheered, believed God and many turned to receive Jesus? And like this are they falling away?

It would be an answer to the prayer of faith. But the gifts expired with the apostles.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
It would be an answer to the prayer of faith. But the gifts expired with the apostles.

But we need the gifts. The church really lost them because of tremendous trials. It was not established and then no longer needed them. The church buckled. Sola Scriptura does not point to a complete Bible but to prophecy and so much so to the Spirit, like the TANACH pointed to Jesus. To follow the pointing is like getting onto a ship from the dock or vice versa.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

It is more than a bit odd to say Scripture is authoritative and whenever it mentions the Spirit or prophecy you have to explain to probably a young person, why the obvious meaning is incorrect for half an hour at a time.

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
But we need the gifts. The church really lost them because of tremendous trials. It was not established and then no longer needed them. The church buckled. Sola Scriptura does not point to a complete Bible but to prophesy and so much so to the Spirit, like the TANACH pointed to Jesus. To follow the pointing is like getting onto a ship from the dock or vice versa.

If you knew your bible well, you would understand the gifts were fragments of the truth where scripture is now the full revelation. Scripture out performs the original gifts hands down. The signs and wonders gifts of the apostles proved their authority just as they did for Moses.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
If you knew your bible well, you would understand the gifts were fragments of the truth where scripture is now the full revelation. Scripture out performs the original gifts hands down. The signs and wonders gifts of the apostles proved their authority just as they did for Moses.

Once again, this is an old argument, we have discussed elsewhere, and others have for decades now. Continuism is more popular now, including among some Bible scholars. Like Gordon Fee, Wayne Grudem and Jack Hayford.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
If you knew your bible well, you would understand the gifts were fragments of the truth where scripture is now the full revelation. Scripture out performs the original gifts hands down. The signs and wonders gifts of the apostles proved their authority just as they did for Moses.

If what you were saying was true, people would still need the gifts unless the possessed and knew a good translation in their own language well.

Gifts tell people more about their unique commission as with Paul's disciple Timothy. Each one is new.

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
If what you were saying was true, people would still need the gifts unless the possessed and knew a good translation in their own language well.

Gifts tell people more about their unique commission as with Paul's disciple Timothy. Each one is new.

No, the scripture acclimated into the end of the first century as the gifts faded out.

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
Once again, this is an old argument, we have discussed elsewhere, and others have for decades now. Continuism is more popular now, including among some Bible scholars. Like Gordon Fee, Wayne Grudem and Jack Hayford.

I think it is a "knock off" version of Christianity that some true believers are mixed up in. Study the history of this movement beginning in the early 1900s and the seedy characters who fostered it.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
If you knew your bible well, you would understand the gifts were fragments of the truth where scripture is now the full revelation. Scripture out performs the original gifts hands down. The signs and wonders gifts of the apostles proved their authority just as they did for Moses.

If what you were saying was true, people would still need the gifts unless the possessed and knew a good translation in their own language well.

Gifts tell people more about their unique commission as with Paul's disciple Timothy. Each one is new.

Dave L said:
No, the scripture acclimated into the end of the first century as the gifts faded out.

So what happened to the poor people who couldn't read and still some can't, for one reason or another?

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
If what you were saying was true, people would still need the gifts unless the possessed and knew a good translation in their own language well.

Gifts tell people more about their unique commission as with Paul's disciple Timothy. Each one is new.

So what happened to the poor people who couldn't read and still some can't, for one reason or another?

But scripture rules out the gifts for today = today's claims are false.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
I think it is a "knock off" version of Christianity that some true believers are mixed up in. Study the history of this movement beginning in the early 1900s and the seedy characters who fostered it.

Stories of continuism and revival continue through the ages. Like the third century healing rallies, St Francis of Assisi and Anthony of Padua, Padre Pio... then the Moravians, Wesley, Whitefield, Jonathon Edwards... before 1900?

Brian Mcnamee · May 20, 2019

Golthe BbibedenKingGaze said:
Church unity is a good idea, much better than infighting. And Copeland has always said he believes in prosperous living. It is a Bible promise to the reverential like Joseph in Egypt. People who give to his ministry know this. Some of his possessions are used for service and recreation, like a car.

Coveting means wanting something that is not your to have.

The Bible warns
Preach the Word
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[fn] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, so we need to know what is sound doctrine and what is turning aside. This unity proposed with the Catholic church is it a good thing? Look up the anathemas that are still Catholic doctrine. How can there be unity with that?

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
Stories of continuism and revival continue through the ages. Like the third century healing rallies, St Francis of Assisi and Anthony of Padua, Padre Pio... then the Moravians, Wesley, Whitefield, Jonathon Edwards... before 1900?

Prayer of Faith?

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
But scripture rules out the gifts for today = today's claims are false.

There is only one arrow pointing left and the others point right to the Spirit in action today and for always. And that verse is about the gifts ceasing when what is perfect comes. Which out of context some explain is Luther's version of the Bible. But in context is the thing, the light of revelation that shines around the world when the person of Christ comes again.

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
There is only one arrow pointing left and the others point right to the Spirit in action today and for always. And that verse is about the gifts ceasing when what is perfect comes. Which out of context some explain is Luther's version of the Bible. But in context is the thing, the light of revelation that shines around the world when the person of Christ comes again.

But scripture does not support this = false movement.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Dave L said:
Prayer of Faith?

I am sure they prayed in faith?

Dave L · May 20, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
I am sure they prayed in faith?

And received answers. But the gifts are long gone and people confuse the phonies with the prayer of faith.

GoldenKingGaze · May 20, 2019

Brian Mcnamee said:
The Bible warns
Preach the Word
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at[fn] His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, so we need to know what is sound doctrine and what is turning aside. This unity proposed with the Catholic church is it a good thing? Look up the anathemas that are still Catholic doctrine. How can there be unity with that?

The doctrines of demons came to fruition when religious leaders ordered killings of saints, revivalists, scholars, translators and so called witches and heretics.

The Tree and it's Fruits, the Toronto Blessing?

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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