Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?

GodsGrace101

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19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, - Romans 9:19-22
Not only have I already replied to the above....
but you refuse to answer a question I've asked 3 times.

Which will conclude our conversation.
I leave you with this:

God is Love. 1 John 4:8
God is Mercy. Mark 6:34
God is Just. Romans 3:26
 
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GodsGrace101

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No Calvinist would say God forces people to sin via predestination.

Try reading the Westminster Confession.

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
And herein lies the problem with your theology.
Read 1a....it states that God ordained WHATSOEVER comes to pass...

Yet so...etc.

Please explain that to me in your own words because:

1. It would show that you understand it.

2. It seems to be a contradiction.
God ordains everything.
BUT He is not the author of sin...
And something about second causes.


Thanks.
 
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Hammster

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Those who God FOREKNEW would follow him he PREDESTINED (PREDETERMINE) to be called into His image v29-30.
You added that. It does NOT say those He foreknew would follow Him. Don’t change the verse to fit your theology.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You added that. It does NOT say those He foreknew would follow Him. Don’t change the verse to fit your theology.

Please do not make things up that are not true. I did not add or change anything. Your denial of God's Word is noted. The full post and scriptures you ignored goes into the greek word meanings and scripture context you leave out of your interpretation of ROMANS 8:30.

As posted earlier...

The context of ROMANS 8:30 with parallel translations reads as follows...

ROMANS 8:28-30 [28], And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29], For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30], Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You may need to re-read the scripture here and re-think your interpretation of it brother. The part your missing out is the PRIMARY CONTEXT of the Greek Word PREDESTINATE (PREDETERMINE) which is those that God did FOREKNOW he also did PREDESTINATE (PREDETERMINE). Those who God FOREKNEW would follow him he PREDESTINED (PREDETERMINE) to be called into His image v29-30.

The scripture is not saying that God predetermines all those who will be saved without giving anyone the chance to choose for themselves if they would be saved or not. The scripture above only states that God FOREKNEW ahead of time or had FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would choose His gift of salvation and who would not.

The primary meaning and CONTEXT of the Greek word PREDESTINATE used in v29-39 is to FOREKNOW or FOREKNOWLEDGE. The GREEK Word used for PREDESTINATE here means to determine before or ahead of time (PREDETERMINE). God determined ahead of time because He FOREKNEW ahead of time who would follow Him and who would not. G4309. προορίζω prŏŏrizō, prŏ-or-id´-zo; from G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (fig.) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate. (Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew)

The primary word CONTEXT being FOREKNOW; or to have FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would choose to BELIEVE God's WORD v29 he CALLED v28 and PREDETERMINED ahead of time to be conformed into His Image. This relates back to God's plan of salvation PREDETERMINED from the foundation of the World and given in the Garden of Eden because God had FOREKNOWLEDGE that mankind would sin and had His plan of salvation before sin occoured *1 PETER 1:19-20; EPHESIANS 1:4; GENESIS 3:15

Sent only in love and as a help to you.

God bless

...............

CONTEXT of v30; ROMANS 8:29

New International Version
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

New Living Translation
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

English Standard Version
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Berean Study Bible
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Berean Literal Bible
because those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be firstborn among many brothers.

New American Standard Bible
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

King James Bible
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Christian Standard Bible
For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Contemporary English Version
and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so his Son would be the first of many children.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For those He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

International Standard Version
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that the Son might be the firstborn among many brothers.

NET Bible
because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

New Heart English Bible
For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And those whom he foreknew, he also fashioned in the likeness of the image of his Son, that he would be The Firstborn of many brethren.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is true because he already knew his people and had already appointed them to have the same form as the image of his Son. Therefore, his Son is the firstborn among many children.

New American Standard 1977
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;

Jubilee Bible 2000
For unto those whom he knew beforehand, he also marked out beforehand the way that they might be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

King James 2000 Bible
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

American King James Version
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

American Standard Version
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Douay-Rheims Bible
For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren.

Darby Bible Translation
Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be [the] firstborn among many brethren.

English Revised Version
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Webster's Bible Translation
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

Weymouth New Testament
For those whom He has known beforehand He has also pre-destined to bear the likeness of His Son, that He might be the Eldest in a vast family of brothers;

World English Bible
For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Young's Literal Translation
because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren.

Did you wish to apologise? If not it is ok, I will leave that between you and God.
 
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Hammster

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Please do not make things up that are not true. I did not add or change anything. Your denial of God's Word is noted. The full post and scriptures you ignored goes into the greek word meanings and scripture context you leave out of your interpretation of ROMANS 8:30.
I didn’t make things up. I quoted what you said.

“Those who God FOREKNEW would follow him he PREDESTINED (PREDETERMINE) to be called into His image v29-30.”

Your words.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I didn’t make things up. I quoted what you said. “Those who God FOREKNEW would follow him he PREDESTINED (PREDETERMINE) to be called into His image v29-30.” Your words.

Well let's examine your claims through the scriptures? You claim that I put into scriptures something that they were not saying. Yet it is God's Word that says...

ROMANS 8:28-30 [28], And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29], For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30], Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Your interprestation of v30 is that God does not give mankind freewill to choose Salvation.

Where does it say that in the scriptures above?

Post # 270 linked and post # 285 linked above shows the context and the greek word meanings you leave out of your interpretation of the scriptures.

You quoted the above scripture to claim that mankind does not have free will to choose salvation or not choose salvation yet the scripture you quoted says no such thing.

If mankind does not have a free will why does the gospel have to be preached to the whole world?

..............

In relation to ROMANS 8:29-30; and your earlier claims, that I was adding to the scriptures something not supported by scripture, here is some food for thought in relation to God FOREKNOWING who would CHOOSE to believe and follow him and who would CHOOSE not to BELIEVE and FOLLOW Him.

Posted earlier...

"Those who God FOREKNEW would follow him he PREDESTINED (PREDETERMINE) to be called into His image v29-30.”

Is free will or having CHOICE to CHOOSE to believe and follow God or not supported by the scriptures?

JOHN 7:17 ANYONE WHO CHOOSES (θέλω, ἐθέλω) to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

DEUTERONOMY 30:16-20
[16], In that I command you this day to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that you may live and multiply: and the LORD your God shall bless you in the land where you go to possess it. [17], But if your heart turn away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
[18], I denounce to you this day, that you shall surely perish, and that you shall not prolong your days on the land, where you pass over Jordan to go to possess it. [19], I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE, that both you and your seed may live: [20], That you may love the LORD your God, and that you may obey his voice, and that you may hold to him: for he is your life, and the length of your days: that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

JEREMIAH 24:14:15
[14], Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD. [15], And if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

PSALMS 24:12 [12], What man is he that fears the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that HE SHALL CHOOSE

PROVERBS 1:23-30
[23], Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit to you, I will make known my words to you.
[24], Because I have called, and you refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[25], But you have set at nothing all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
[26], I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes;
[27], When your fear comes as desolation, and your destruction comes as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish comes on you.
[28], Then shall they call on me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[29], FOR THAT THEY HATED KNOWLEDGE AND DID NOT CHOOSE THE FEAR OF THE LORD
[30], They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

PROVERBS 3:31 [31], Envy you not the oppressor, and CHOOSE NONE OF HIS WAYS.

ISAIAH 56:4 [4], For thus said the LORD to the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, AND CHOOSE THE THINGS THAT PLEASE ME AND TAKE HOLD OF MY COVENANT.

ISAIAH 65:11-12
[11], But you are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering to that number.
[12], Therefore will I number you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter: BECAUSE WHEN I CALLED, YOU DID NOT ANSWER, WHEN I SPOKE, YOU DID NOT HEAR; BUT DID EVIL BEFORE MY EYES AND DID CHOOSE THAT WHERE IN I DELIGHTED NOT.

ISAIAH 66:4 [4], I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears on them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before my eyes, AND CHOOSE THE IN WHICH I DELIGHTED NOT.

JOSHUA 24:15
[15], And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE THE DAY WHO YOU WILL SERVE; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

JOHN 1:11-12 [11], He came to his own, and his own received him not.
[12], BUT AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

JOHN 5:39-40
[39], Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[40], And YOU WILL NOT COME TO ME THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LIFE.

REVELATION 3:20 [20], Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: IF ANY MAN HEAR MY VOICE AND OPEN THE DOOR , I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

There are too many scriptures on free will in God's Word only some have been posted above. There are many more ...

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live?… Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed against me, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, says the Lord GOD. Turn, then, and live. *EZEKIEL 18:5; 9; 20; 23; 31-32.

No point in posting them all. The scriptures posted above only support what I have provided to you in earlier posts that God did FOREKNOW who would CHOOSE to BELIEVE and FOLLOW Him and who would not. Seems like a lot of scripture that supports a free will for mankind to choose to believe or not believe God's Word, don't you think brother?

Now where does it say in God's Word that mankind does not have a free will to CHOOSE to BELIEVE or not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word? You have none do you.

The reason not everyone CHOOSES to believe and follow God's Word is that men love darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil *JOHN 3:19.

Only sent in love and as a help to you brother. Maybe you can pray about it and study it out further.

May God bless you as you seek him through His Word.
 
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Hammster

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Your interprestation of v30 is that God does not give mankind freewill to choose Salvation.
No, it’s not. So no point in continuing since your premise is false.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No, it’s not. So no point in continuing since your premise is false.

I see, so you no longer believe that God predetermined rather then foreknew who would be saved? Glad to hear it. Then what was your purpose of posting ROMANS 8:30?
 
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I see, so you no longer believe that God predetermined rather then foreknew who would be saved?
I’m not sure why you think distorting what I said is a proper way to forward a discussion.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I’m not sure why you think distorting what I said is a proper way to forward a discussion.

How do you think I have distorted what you have said? If I have misunderstood what you are saying please clarify. Don't you believe that God predestined everyone to being saved or not saved?
 
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Hammster

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How do you think I have distorted what you have said?
I have never said that God does not give man free will to choose Christ. Just the opposite, really. If God doesn’t change man’s heart (will), he will never choose Christ.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I have never said that God does not give man free will to choose Christ. Just the opposite, really. If God doesn’t change man’s heart (will), he will never choose Christ.

Don't you believe that God predestined everyone to being saved or not saved? If so how does this give mankind freewill if everyone is pre made to believe or not believe?
 
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Daniel C

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My opinion.

We will get justice as God is just and righteous. I also think we deserve a certain amount of grace to make a connection with God. This is deserved as God is the designer of us and the senior partner in the relationship but if we don't accept that handshake and unity offered we get judged on the end result of having faith or no faith.

This is probably some kind of heresy but I'm non denominational,so hey.
 
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Don't you believe that God predestined everyone to being saved or not saved? If so how does this give mankind freewill if everyone is pre made to believe or not believe?
I never have stated that man is pre-made to believe.
 
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My opinion.

We will get justice as God is just and righteous. I also think we deserve a certain amount of grace to make a connection with God. This is deserved as God is the designer of us and the senior partner in the relationship but if we don't accept that handshake and unity offered we get judged on the end result of having faith or no faith.

This is probably some kind of heresy but I'm non denominational,so hey.
Well, I’ll be honest and say that when I hear that we deserve anything good from God, I cringe. We deserve the full wrath of God. Anything apart from that is grace.
 
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Daniel C

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Well, I’ll be honest and say that when I hear that we deserve anything good from God, I cringe. We deserve the full wrath of God. Anything apart from that is grace.


How about need?

We need grace from God. If not,it appears to me I've been set up in a world where people can be condemned without any mercy from the one who made the rules?

Maybe! Unlikely though if he is kind and merciful like the Bible suggests.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I never have stated that man is pre-made to believe.
You posted scripture in relation to predestined salvation. You did not answer my questions to you in the post you were responding to, which was,

Don't you believe that God predestined everyone to being saved or not saved?
If so how does this give mankind freewill if everyone is pre made to believe or not believe?

If you do not wish to answer the questions just say so.
 
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GodsGrace101

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My opinion.

We will get justice as God is just and righteous. I also think we deserve a certain amount of grace to make a connection with God. This is deserved as God is the designer of us and the senior partner in the relationship but if we don't accept that handshake and unity offered we get judged on the end result of having faith or no faith.

This is probably some kind of heresy but I'm non denominational,so hey.
It's not heresy.
What you've stated is correct.
We all get a sufficient amount of grace to make us open to God's existence.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks....
It's up to us to open the door. Rev. 3:20

If we open the door we become a friend of God....
If we do not open the door, we remain an enemy of God and s servant to satan.

All denominations teach the above,,,,except one.
 
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