Arminians and Calvinists both saved the same way.

Dave L

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The Arminian must believe before he would choose to believe (a form of repentance). The Calvinist must believe before he chooses to repent. It's just in how we define repentance. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So all are saved by grace before they decide anything.

"Choosing to believe is the first step of faith for many...."
 

Bobber

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The Arminian must believe before he would choose to believe (a form of repentance). The Calvinist must believe before he chooses to repent. It's just in how we define repentance. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So all are saved by grace before they decide anything.

I think you should explain more in depth EXACTLY what you're meaning by your first line. And don't say it's clear. You purposely try to make Arminians look foolish and your statement is very murky.
And having to choose to act on God's word and receive as something we have to do does not negate that it's by grace.
 
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-57

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The Arminian must believe before he would choose to believe (a form of repentance). The Calvinist must believe before he chooses to repent. It's just in how we define repentance. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So all are saved by grace before they decide anything.

"Choosing to believe is the first step of faith for many...."
Can one believe if God doesn't give them the ability to believe?
 
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Dave L

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Can one believe if God doesn't give them the ability to believe?
If you re-read my OP. It says both believe (by grace). The Armininan believes (is already saved) or they would not "choose to believe" which is a form of dedication and repentance.
 
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Dave L

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I think you should explain more in depth EXACTLY what you're meaning by your first line. And don't say it's clear. You purposely try to make Arminians look foolish and your statement is very murky.
And having to choose to act on God's word and receive as something we have to do does not negate that it's by grace.
You would choose to believe if they did not already believe?
 
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MDC

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If you re-read my OP. It says both believe (by grace). The Armininan believes (is already saved) or they would not "choose to believe" which is a form of dedication and repentance.
How is the Arminian understanding of grace in salvation the same as Calvinist? If both believe by grace then why so much heated debates? Resisting Gods grace and elevating the free will of man as the determining factor in God choosing to save sinners isn’t the grace of God that saves according to scripture. Gods grace is freely given in Christ and is irresistible. The denial of divine election gives evidence of a denial of free grace
 
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Dave L

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How is the Arminian understanding of grace in salvation the same as Calvinist? If both believe by grace then why so much heated debates? Resisting Gods grace and elevating the free will of man as the determining factor in God choosing to save sinners isn’t the grace of God that saves according to scripture. Gods grace is freely given in Christ and is irresistible. The denial of divine election gives evidence of a denial of free grace
Both are saved the same way. But both enter the faith having carnal minds that "Rorschach the scriptures" according to their Calvinistic upbringing. Or according to their Arminian upbringing. Or as in my case, according to the worldly philosophies that revolve around law and free will being imposed on the scriptures.
 
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MDC

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Both are saved the same way. But both enter the faith having carnal minds that "Rorschach the scriptures" according to their Calvinistic upbringing. Or according to their Arminian upbringing. Or as in my case, according to the worldly philosophies that revolve around law and free will being imposed on the scriptures.
I get what you are saying. But I do not believe once saved an Arminian or Roman Catholic will continue believing according to such, as in the case with me
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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You purposely try to make Arminians look foolish and your statement is very murky.

Well, it's a fair assessment, considering. While it may seem foolish to you to say that the Arminian position is that he must believe before he chooses to believe, the alternative is that he must choose to believe what he does not first believe. The first option is circular reasoning, but the second option is necessarily a farce, being that a person would need to willfully believe something that he thought he knew was false. Given the circumstances, I'd say he went with the more charitable interpretation.
 
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Dave L

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Well, it's a fair assessment, considering. While it may seem foolish to you to say that the Arminian position is that he must believe before he chooses to believe, the alternative is that he must choose to believe what he does not first believe. The first option is circular reasoning, but the second option is necessarily a farce, being that a person would need to willfully believe something that he thought he knew was false. Given the circumstances, I'd say he went with the more charitable interpretation.
Why would anyone choose anything if they did not believe their choice would further their belief?
 
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Bobber

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Well, it's a fair assessment, considering. While it may seem foolish to you to say that the Arminian position is that he must believe before he chooses to believe, the alternative is that he must choose to believe what he does not first believe. The first option is circular reasoning, but the second option is necessarily a farce, being that a person would need to willfully believe something that he thought he knew was false. Given the circumstances, I'd say he went with the more charitable interpretation.

I beg to differ that it's a fair assessment. It's really a lack of basic insight into what faith is an how it's put in motion.

Here's the process. You choose to accept the revelation of God as being creditable. That's having faith in the message. But believing is a verb. Believing is the thing that takes you to the place of the thing you have faith in or in other words you must act on the message by doing what? By confessing the Lordship of Jesus Christ over one's life. So can one have faith in something that they haven't carried out the actions to receive? Of course. But there's no such thing as "believing" which in scriptural context means acting on the word.

In Acts 14 :8,10 we read where Paul preached the gospel in Lystra,

And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who steadfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked. Acts 14 :8,10

In saying he had faith to be obviously means he wasn't as yet. Not until he turned his belief into the "believing" or acting on the word. Until there's action there's no believing

Now granted culture uses "believing" as a mental assent thing but one has to catch the spirit in the text of how it's meant to be understood or in other words rightly divide the word of truth. The word "faith" is like this as well. There's different ways one is to think about it.

You can have faith that there's a God based on merely looking at the order of creation. One could say there's no way this all could be by chance. But that's not akin to "believing" or acting on the word which takes you to salvation. Similarly with the gospel message one must move into action to have really carried out the act of NT "believing"

It can't be stressed enough. Faith is one thing (a noun) but the believing (a verb) is another. To actually be in NT believing you MUST confess and you must call. (both actions) Rom 10:10 & Rom 10 :13 Call ...you must pray to the Lord that you want to receive his salvation and you must therefore confess the Lordship of Jesus over your life.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Why would anyone choose anything if they did not believe their choice would further their belief?

Exactly. It would be pretty moronic to arbitrarily choose to believe in something that you thought was false. I've seen people try to do it, though. It's just make-believe, but it stems from the conflict between what a person actually believes and what they want to believe.
 
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grafted branch

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The Arminian must believe before he would choose to believe (a form of repentance). The Calvinist must believe before he chooses to repent. It's just in how we define repentance. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So all are saved by grace before they decide anything.

"Choosing to believe is the first step of faith for many...."

Hi Dave L,

Could you give me your opinion on John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It appears that those to whom Jesus was speaking couldn’t believe, or do the work of God. Could believing then be considered the work of God and not the work of man?

If so then John 3:16 could be interpreted as “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever” has the work of God “should not perish, but have everlasting life”.
 
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Dave L

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Hi Dave L,

Could you give me your opinion on John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It appears that those to whom Jesus was speaking couldn’t believe, or do the work of God. Could believing then be considered the work of God and not the work of man?

If so then John 3:16 could be interpreted as “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever” has the work of God “should not perish, but have everlasting life”.
I believe this is the correct interpretation. My faith is the work of God. Thanks for sharing.
 
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Danthemailman

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Can one believe if God doesn't give them the ability to believe?
Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65), we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to saving faith in Christ comes from God.
 
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Dave L

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Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65), we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to saving faith in Christ comes from God.
I agree for the most part. But in the new birth it is our nature to believe and repent.

“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.” (John 15:16)
 
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Bobber

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Could you give me your opinion on John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It appears that those to whom Jesus was speaking couldn’t believe, or do the work of God. Could believing then be considered the work of God and not the work of man?

Problem is Jesus did say they could do the work of God. They asked him a question how to do the work of God and he told them. "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

I'd suggest there is no justifiable reason to swing this whole statement around and take away from it the normal way people would talk to each other. If it were the truth that men don't work for God in ANY SENSE of the word he would have told them so by throwing in a negative as in it's not possible for you to do the work of God. He didn't. So with all due respect believing is the work of men.

If so then John 3:16 could be interpreted as “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever” has the work of God “should not perish, but have everlasting life”.

But then again that therefore makes meaningless the statement God so loved the world. So how exactly does he love the part of the world who are not the ones who believe. He said he loved the world BEFORE the end result of which ones would believe.
 
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-57

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Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us and enables us (John 6:44,65), we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to saving faith in Christ comes from God.

Once chosen by God, saved, are heart is changed and we willingly choose Jesus.
 
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grafted branch

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Problem is Jesus did say they could do the work of God. They asked him a question how to do the work of God and he told them. "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

I'd suggest there is no justifiable reason to swing this whole statement around and take away from it the normal way people would talk to each other. If it were the truth that men don't work for God in ANY SENSE of the word he would have told them so by throwing in a negative as in it's not possible for you to do the work of God. He didn't. So with all due respect believing is the work of men.



But then again that therefore makes meaningless the statement God so loved the world. So how exactly does he love the part of the world who are not the ones who believe. He said he loved the world BEFORE the end result of which ones would believe.

If believing is the work of men then John 3:16 is implying that our work is what saves us. If the Bible is infallible then how can Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not by works, lest any man should boast” be true along with John 3:16 and John 6:28-29?
 
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