women long hair, men short hair

lambofgod43985889 said:

common sense

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So completely subjective then. What is common sense for some, won't be at all common for others.
When I think of long hair, I think below the shoulders to above the waist. I don't consider shoulder length to be long.
What do you consider as "long"?

MyChainsAreGone said:

For one... if long hair is shameful for men, then why was it not shameful for Samson, Samuel, and John the Baptizer, all of whom were Narirites and therefore had very long hair?

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In the church I attend the women have long hair so I will try to answer according to our understanding. Samson & John the Baptist were under a specific command to provide a service for God and their hair represented their commitment & obedience to the Lord.

Paul's teaching is that the husband & wife represent Christ and the Church - and the woman's long hair is a symbol of the Church's commitment & obedience to Jesus Christ. In the same passage (1 Corinthians 11) Paul goes on to talk about the bread & wine which are also symbols which we use in the Lord's Supper.

Long hair was the norm for women until the 20th century and short hair was made popular by women who one would not regard as examples of godly behaviour.

It is interesting that the distinction between male & female is being blurred in these days when many people are rejecting the leadership of Christ in their lives and in the country as a whole.

I don't mean to sound critical of those who disagree but I just wanted to share another perspective.

creslaw said:

In the church I attend the women have long hair so I will try to answer according to our understanding. Samson & John the Baptist were under a specific command to provide a service for God and their hair represented their commitment & obedience to the Lord.

Paul's teaching is that the husband & wife represent Christ and the Church - and the woman's long hair is a symbol of the Church's commitment & obedience to Jesus Christ. In the same passage (1 Corinthians 11) Paul goes on to talk about the bread & wine which are also symbols which we use in the Lord's Supper.

Long hair was the norm for women until the 20th century and short hair was made popular by women who one would not regard as examples of godly behaviour.

It is interesting that the distinction between male & female is being blurred in these days when many people are rejecting the leadership of Christ in their lives and in the country as a whole.

I don't mean to sound critical of those who disagree but I just wanted to share another perspective.

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The ability to grow long hair is genetic, and there are entire nations of women who cannot grow their hair long.

RDKirk said:

The ability to grow long hair is genetic, and there are entire nations of women who cannot grow their hair long.

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We have quite a few women from African countries that attend our church - we see it as an attitude of the heart.

It might help if I give an example: I believe Christians should go to church regularly (Hebrews 10:25) but some people can't, so they do what they can, such as attend when possible or listen to tv or online church services. God looks on the heart.

MyChainsAreGone said:

Did you read my post HERE?

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yeah I read it.

the nazarite vow is just that...a nazarite vow. the LORD chose criteria for those who took the vow to be set apart. you don't believe it's a sin to drink wine do you(Jesus drank wine, as you mentioned)?

what problems with it being a command do you see?

NOTE: the nazarite vow wasn't about requiring long hair but about not cutting the hair you did have.

lambofgod43985889 said:

GOD's common sense

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The frescoes discovered in the synagogue of Dura-Europos show a range of hair lengths on men, from very short to shoulder length.

Well, I wear my hair like 80s Rock Star Length, on weekends, but during the week I tie it up into the "Man Bun" and slick my hair down like Pat Riley of the Lakers

I do need to cut a few inches off. but No, Long hair is just part of my look, and it is not an issue to me. Anyone who has a problem with it needs to look within themselves as to why they allow themselves to be bothered by it.

Tayla said:

Yes, Paul commands what hair length is required.

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That's just it, he doesn't.
"Long hair is disgraceful on a man" - how long is 'long'? Below the ears? Down to the back of the neck? Shoulder length? Longer?

Tayla said:

He never says this command is merely cultural as many believe.

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It's not a command - if it had been, Paul would have specified the length of hair that is allowed before it becomes a sin.
Are men being forced to sin in lockdown because the hairdressers aren't open?

Nothing wrong with a woman having short hair.

Tayla said:

Yes, Paul commands what hair length is required.

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Thankfully, Paul is not my Boss and what he commands is insignificant as to not warrant a second thought.
Fact is, I live in a country that is still free, and I can wear what I want, so long as I do not violate state and local decency laws. Long hair is part of my life. Paul is not. Get over it.

Strong in Him said:

Nothing wrong with a woman having short hair.

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There is a whole continent of women whose hair does not grow long.

RickardoHolmes said:

Thankfully, Paul is not my Boss and what he commands is insignificant as to not warrant a second thought.
Fact is, I live in a country that is still free, and I can wear what I want, so long as I do not violate state and local decency laws. Long hair is part of my life. Paul is not. Get over it.

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Paul/Saul was ministering to the first church where believers were called Christians (Acts 11:25-26) so anyone calling themselves Christian identifies themselves with what Paul taught.
Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Strong in Him said:

That's just it, he doesn't.
"Long hair is disgraceful on a man" - how long is 'long'? Below the ears? Down to the back of the neck? Shoulder length? Longer?



It's not a command - if it had been, Paul would have specified the length of hair that is allowed before it becomes a sin.
Are men being forced to sin in lockdown because the hairdressers aren't open?

Nothing wrong with a woman having short hair.

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Nature teaches us what is long hair (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).

creslaw said:

Nature teaches us what is long hair (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).

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??
All that says is "does not even nature teach us that if a man has long hair ......?" It does not say how long is considered to be long - 2 inches? 4? 10?
In the army, if a man has hair that covers his ears, it is too long.
To a man who has very little hair, a man with shoulder length hair, has long hair.

If there was a command about the length that a man's hair should be, God would have specified the length - but there isn't.
Just ask Samson.

It is likely a cultural example with the general application of modesty.

The contemporary medical belief in which Paul wrote saw hair as part of sexual organs. It was believed that hair was in essence part of the reproductive system, was hollow and was responsible for drawing up reproductive fluid. Long hair at the head retained more fluid in the brain which was in contrast to what a man's role in reproduction should be (hence, "if a man has long hair it is a disgrace to him"). Women's long hair was part of their ability to reproduce, and this was considered a kind of genitalia of sorts.

If this is correct then, the underlying message here is one of covering up genitalia for the sake of modesty, especially when associated with holy things (praying, prophesising, etc). This was not unique - Paul was speaking to the cultural norms and standard view of hair in that culture and time. So the prevailing message to all is one of cultural norms related to decency and modesty in the church and as a Christian. As today prevailing medical understanding has shown that hair does not have this role and is not considered in our culture to be one with properties of a reproductive organ, nor is it considered modest or decent to cover your hair as a woman, this specific application is no longer relevant. However modesty in other areas still remains as an everlasting truth.

The other challenging part of this passage is the reference to for the sake of the angels. If you subscribe to a Genesis 6 worldview that understands the sons of God being actual angels (Watchers as per Enoch) who fell by taking wives of human women and procreated with them (which is a feature of several NT writers, e.g. Peter and Jude referencing Enoch; and prevailing Jewish tradition), the link here would be along the lines of modesty relative to tempting angels to a repeat of Gen 6.

This is not my own theory and is far more nuanced and detailed than the proposed summary above, but something some theologians with knowledge of contemporary Greco-Roman medical beliefs at the time have commented on. It is well summarised by Michael Heiser, if you google him and something along the lines of women head covering you can find the argument put forward which to me, has quite strong explanatory power.

lambofgod43985889 said:

this is what apostle paul says, as far as i know, in the new testament
so didn't jesus use to use long hair?

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St. Paul wasn't giving fashion advice, or a commandment on hair styles.

What constitutes "short" and "long" in regard to hair has never been consistent anytime in history, or anywhere in the world.

We have no idea what length Jesus' hair would have been, He is typically depicted with shoulder-length hair largely because of how early Christian iconography developed.

In early catacomb engravings, Jesus is often depicted as the Good Shepherd, and in the Roman style (clean shaven, short hair, youthful); but that doesn't mean that's what Jesus looked like. The Good Shepherd is a symbol in early Christian art and iconography.

We can probably expect, however, that Jesus looked pretty ordinary. He wouldn't have stood out much, as in the Gospels when the soldiers are sent to apprehend Him Judas is tasked with identifying Him with a kiss of betrayal.

It's really only been in modern times that this long hair/short hair thing has become a thing in some churches. And it seems to largely be a simple reaction against 1960's counterculture in the United States and other parts of the west. Because many young men in that era grew their hair long in rebellion against the conformity that had been established in the 40's and 50's. But, and this is important, simply go back several decades earlier and we can see that men with long hair was quite common in the US. From the Civil War era to the late 1800's men often had longer hair and facial hair, sometimes very elaborate facial hair. By the middle of the 20th century, however, it was culturally normative for men to have short hair, be clean shaven, and then that became the norm.

It changes, all the time. Do men go clean shaven, or grow facial hair? Short hair, long hair? It changes, all the time. And it always has, and always will. That's how human societies are.

-CryptoLutheran

lambofgod43985889 said:

sincerely, how looks a man with his hair up to his waist?

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Like a man with hair down to his waist.

In the Japanese feudal era, both men and women often let their hair grow quite long. But it was also generally expected for them to tie their hair up. The same is true in other places and times. Just look at men's hair styles in the bygone Ming and Qing Dynasty eras of Chinese history:



And here's a picture of Alaric who sacked Rome, just as an added bonus.



-CryptoLutheran

creslaw said:

Nature teaches us what is long hair (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).

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Sooo...like in Sub-Sahara Africa where the hair of black people, male or female, is naturally short...what is "long hair?"