Alabama's Restrictive Abortion Law: Rape and Incest Discussion

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Out of more than 600 laws of Moses, none comments on abortion. One Mosaic law about miscarriage specifically contradicts the claim that the bible is antiabortion, clearly stating that miscarriage does not involve the death of a human being. If a woman has a miscarriage as the result of a fight, the man who caused it should be fined. If the woman dies, however, the culprit must be killed:

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

"And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth . . ."--Ex. 21:22-25

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

When Does Life Begin?

According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

Desperate for a biblical basis for their beliefs, some antiabortionists cite obscure passages, usually metaphors or poetic phrasing, such as: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5 This is sexist, but does nothing other than to invoke original sin. It says nothing about abortion.

The Commandments, Moses, Jesus and Paul ignored every chance to condemn abortion.

Dude the Biblw says nothing about abortion...and abortion has been around for thousands of years..back then they used various herbs to end pregnancy. I am a Christian...I am actually against abortions as a CONVENIENCE!!! Two people have unprotected sex and get pregnant yeah they should carry it. And while I believe a woman should have the right to chose if she has been raped I could see 12 weeks being the stop point. I say that because many rape victims shut down go into shock and have a problem dealing with it! That aside...trying to ban abortion will work about as good as banning teens having sex would work lol. There are legal herbs you can get to cause an abortion, you can go to another state or another country. That's the point its trying to force and impossible to enforce law into effect. This topic has gotten old...we all have an opinion and nothing any off say will change that.

Thank you for offering your opinion and insight.

I have read Exodus 21:22 as referring to a premature birth.

Using notes from Bible commentaries from Bible Gateway, I have interpreted "mischief" to mean mischief to the mother or unborn child.
 
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JerseyChristianSuperstar

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Curious to know if everyone here believes that each person has a soul. The soul is the part of us that is eternal.

When does God give someone their soul ? Is there at any point they do not have a soul ?

My point is that the unborn future adult in the womb has a soul. God gave him or her that soul.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. I fear the Lord and trust that even though His ways may seem impossible, that He is Lord of all and that I can trust Him.

I believe each living person has a soul, I certainly do not agree that the soul is created at the exact moment of conception.

The Bible also disagrees with you.

Genesis 2:7 - “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Therefore it is not when someone is conceived that a person gets a soul, but with the first breath, which, according to science takes place in the third trimester, where many pro-choice people, including myself, are opposed to the practice as it happens post-viability.

Even St. Augustine, who felt abortion at any period in pregnancy was sinful, rightly felt that early abortion was nevertheless not equivalent to murder because "for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation." (source) His position was based off a reasonable hermeneutical interpretation of Exodus 21:22 (the Septuagint version).

Rather, Augustine and a good number of his fellow theologians believed the fetus was ensouled at the end of the third month, at the "quickening", when the woman could feel the baby moving/kicking in the womb.
 
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SPF

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I believe each living person has a soul, I certainly do not agree that the soul is created at the exact moment of conception.

The Bible also disagrees with you.

Genesis 2:7 - “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Therefore it is not when someone is conceived that a person gets a soul, but with the first breath, which, according to science takes place in the third trimester, where many pro-choice people, including myself, are opposed to the practice as it happens post-viability.

Even St. Augustine, who felt abortion at any period in pregnancy was sinful, rightly felt that early abortion was nevertheless not equivalent to murder because "for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation." (source) His position was based off a reasonable hermeneutical interpretation of Exodus 21:22 (the Septuagint version).

Rather, Augustine and a good number of his fellow theologians believed the fetus was ensouled at the end of the third month, at the "quickening", when the woman could feel the baby moving/kicking in the womb.
Have you actually read the Genesis passage you quoted? Can you show us where it says Adam came to life when HE first took a breath? Spoiler: it doesn’t say that.

Realistically, if that is a literal account, then what it looked like was God created a body, which essentially was lifeless, than God, Himself, breathed life INTO Adam. Meaning, Adam was actually alive for a moment before he took his first breath. Adam breathing himself played no part in his coming to life.

And as for Augustine, his ignorance can be excused as he didn’t have the benefit of the scientific knowledge about the unborn that we do today.
 
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Sorry SPF, but there is no reason to force a raped teenage girl to stay pregnant for nine months.
There absolutely is a reason why a raped teenage girl should be forced to stay pregnant for nine months. It is because the life that is growing inside her is not hers to take. She can freely choose to give up her parental rights and give the baby up for adoption.
 
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Servant of Yeshua

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I believe each living person has a soul, I certainly do not agree that the soul is created at the exact moment of conception.

The Bible also disagrees with you.

Genesis 2:7 - “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Therefore it is not when someone is conceived that a person gets a soul, but with the first breath, which, according to science takes place in the third trimester, where many pro-choice people, including myself, are opposed to the practice as it happens post-viability.

Even St. Augustine, who felt abortion at any period in pregnancy was sinful, rightly felt that early abortion was nevertheless not equivalent to murder because "for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation." (source) His position was based off a reasonable hermeneutical interpretation of Exodus 21:22 (the Septuagint version).

Rather, Augustine and a good number of his fellow theologians believed the fetus was ensouled at the end of the third month, at the "quickening", when the woman could feel the baby moving/kicking in the womb.
If you read what I wrote, I was asking questions and I never stated as fact when a person gets a soul, only questioning is there a time that one doesn't have one. I do not think using Genesis 2:7 as a reason is accurate since Adam and Eve had a unique creation experience as compared to the rest of mankind. But that being said, I cannot imagine that much time went by from the forming to the breathing into his nostrils. Also regarding what was stated about St Augustine, I am not at all comfortable making any assumptions about God's view of man deciding to destroy one of his children especially when God states in Jeremiah 1:5 that He knew us before He formed us in the womb and in Psalms that He (God) knit us together in our mother's womb. God blesses those who trust in Him.
 
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Servant of Yeshua

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”Not hers to take”
I agree. Either God is the author and creator of all life, or He isn't. I fear the Lord with a high respect and cannot fear what man thinks of me in all of this. At a sad point in history half of the country thought it was ok to own slaves too. Here again we think we can own a person as property, but this time nobody survives.
 
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Servant of Yeshua

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What? How can you possibly think something growing inside her body, half made of her own cells and her own chronosomes, NOT BE HERS?
As someone horribly sexually abused as a child, I certainly do feel for the rape victim. I would imagine a rape victim would get a morning after pill to help ensure that a baby was not conceived. But getting an abortion after a heartbeat is creating another act of violence onto her body that could have many more emotional and physical problems for her. The unborn future adult has a unique DNA and fingerprint. If it were a part of her body he or she would have identical DNA. She is a temporary caregiver. The baby, not the mother, decides the timing of what day he or she will be born. Prevention should be the focus. For so many that now think it is criminal to bring children into the world, or are simply terrified to carry a child in their womb, they do have the choice over their own bodies to get a tubal ligation and men to get a vasectomy.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Servant, do you rally think it is practical for women to prevent pregnancies by getting a tubal ligation? No contraceptive method, even surgery, is perfect. A woman can have her tubes tied and still get pregnant. I am sure Alabama's abortion law will not help anyone get that kind of surgery anyway.
 
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Servant of Yeshua

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Servant, do you rally think it is practical for women to prevent pregnancies by getting a tubal ligation? No contraceptive method, even surgery, is perfect. A woman can have her tubes tied and still get pregnant. I am sure Alabama's abortion law will not help anyone get that kind of surgery anyway.
You are correct about medical procedures not being full proof. There are abortions that also do not work the way they are supposed to and women have died and in other cases some babies are born alive. If you have never watched Gianna Jessen Gianna Jessen | Abortion Survivor, Pro-Life Advocate, Speaker
Honestly I would hope that nobody would choose to get a tubal ligation, though I think it is better choice than an abortion. Children are a huge blessing and gift from God. I guess I was frustrated since so many younger people I know keep talking about how immoral they feel it is to bring children into the world today. My oldest had a teacher that told her 5 years ago that it was wrong to bring children into the world. He convinced her that he was so intelligent and had all the answers. It is sad.
 
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Robert6671

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There absolutely is a reason why a raped teenage girl should be forced to stay pregnant for nine months. It is because the live that is growing inside her is not hers to take. She can freely choose to give up her parental rights and give the baby up for adoption.
You know I was done with this topic. Let me be real with you man. If my daughter is raped and she wants an abortion I would support. And I would track down the rapist and make the guy could never make a child again. I pointed at a case of an 11 year old girl being raped in Ohio...now could she carry to term maybe but there is a good possibility there will be complications. You know it is that attitude...it is why I do not go to church anymore. I am a Christian...but I can stand judgmental bigots who act like they know it all. The bible does not make issue on abortion. So your belief is not a religious law...it is A PERSONAL MORAL OPINION AND KNOW ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO FORCE THERE OPINION OR BELIEFS ONTO ANOTHER!!! I mean I swear it is Muslims and Christians that do this is it why Christians and Muslims are the two most hated groups in the world.
 
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SPF

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The bible does not make issue on abortion.
The Bible, however, does take issue with the killing of innocent people. The unborn, unwanted child is a victim too. Why do you think killing them is an acceptable choice?

The ONLY reason I can think of is that people discriminate against the unborn since they can’t “see” them.
 
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I pointed at a case of an 11 year old girl being raped in Ohio...now could she carry to term maybe but there is a good possibility there will be complications.
Is the 11 year old child having an abortion because she was raped, or because of the health complications as a result of becoming pregnant at a young age?

The bible does not make issue on abortion.
It absolutely does say that the life in the womb is as precious as any other human life. There were also laws punishing anyone who caused harm to the life in the womb. Therefore, you can say what you want, if a man rapes a child, I could castrate the man myself. But unless the life of the mother is at stake or the unborn has already received a death sentence due to defects, abortion is unbiblical. I started a thread on this topic a few months back. Perhaps you may be able to provide an answer that no pro-infanticide Christian has been able to provide.

How Can Abortion Be Biblically Defended?
 
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Perhaps you may be able to provide an answer that no pro-infanticide Christian has been able to provide.

I don’t think that a Christian who believes that abortion should be permitted for rape victims is a “pro-infanticide Christian.” I think we can avoid such name-calling.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Only doctors can neuter men but I certainly would rather lock him up where he can't even meet a woman anyway.

It is a myth that Christian Democrats are pro-fetocide. That would be recommending abortion at any time for nine months for women who can't take care of babies. When a fetus is able to live outsie the uterus, if the mother does not medically need to end her pregnancy, I am against abortion all the way.
 
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I found this picture that reminds Christian pro-lifers to stop forcing their opinions on pro-choice voters.

2000.jpeg


Hundreds protest Alabama's abortion ban at state capitol
 
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SPF

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I found this picture that reminds Christian pro-lifers to stop forcing their opinions on pro-choice voters.
But it’s ok for pro-choicers to force their opinions on pro-life voters?

I never understood this mindset. Let’s say we have John and David.

John: I believe that science shows us that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization, and as all human beings are morally valuable I don’t think abortion for non-medical emergencies should be legal.

David: I agree with John that science shows us a new human being comes into existence at fertilization, however, I don’t believe humans are inherently morally valuable, therefore I think until the unborn child is viable that an abortion is perfectly acceptable.

Why is it that given the above two conflicting positions that David is the one who is allowed to yell at John for forcing his beliefs upon him? Are not both sides equally trying to push their beliefs on the other?
 
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