Would Jesus work as an undercover officer pretending to be a criminal?

TRVL ONE · May 17, 2019

TRVL ONE said:
You got me! But in secret. Yeah you won. That sums it all up. God approves of all undercover work, because of that.

Then

TRVL ONE · May 17, 2019

RDKirk said:
However, after his brothers had left for the festival, Jesus went also, not publicly, but in secret -- John 7

Then after this Jesus, Peter, John and James were using obscene language and committing sexual immorality for the CIA.

His student · May 17, 2019

TRVL ONE said:
I don't think Jesus would work as an undercover officer, cussing,lying and deceiving. I can't imagine Jesus pretending to be a foul mouthed drug dealer. What do you think?

Mine is kind of an odd take on this I suppose - BUT.......

Jesus "became sin" for our sake to save us. Even though He in Himself knew no sin He took on an entirely different persona because it was the will of His Father to do so for the sake of those He loves.

Jesus loved to teach in parables and metaphors when He was with us - SO............

Maybe - to loosely show what the Lord would have said - "God's plan of salvation is like a policeman who went undercover and took an evil persona upon himself. He sweat great drops of blood because it caused him so much personal offense to do so. He did what was offensive to Himself because it was what was necessary to save those who depended on Him for deliverance from evil. Because of His personal sacrifice He was able to take down the godfather of sin."

It doesn't seem like such a stretch to think of those who serve us and protect us from crime as simply doing like Jesus did. They take on the roll of sinner in order to save us from sinners.

Capeesh?

Robert6671 · May 17, 2019

To catch drug lords and major criminals you have to play dirty there is no other way. You can get on your knees and pray but those major criminals will walk up to you laughing put a gun to your head and pull the trigger. Soldiers kill...that is against the ten commandments. It is not black and white very few things are. There are religious laws and laws of governments. Evan Jesus says give to ceaser what is ceasers and to god what is gods.

Blade · May 18, 2019

Well look up the word pretending... one would have to really take this twist this speculation so far.. the sinner has been judged already. When they took the woman before Him.. when He speaks unlike us.. it cuts to the heart. You being with out sin cast the 1st stone. Now if we said that to someone.. they would laugh and start tossing stones. But when HE the word says it.. in them.. they see the truth...

So.. the woman caught in sin.. nor do I .. go and sin no more. Then sinner has been judged already..

Kaon · May 18, 2019

Robert6671 said:
To catch drug lords and major criminals you have to play dirty there is no other way. You can get on your knees and pray but those major criminals will walk up to you laughing put a gun to your head and pull the trigger. Soldiers kill...that is against the ten commandments. It is not black and white very few things are. There are religious laws and laws of governments. Evan Jesus says give to ceaser what is ceasers and to god what is gods.

It's fine playing dirty if we call it that, not something virtuous. There are other ways to catch major criminals; dirty isn't the only way. It may the way that we think works best, but it certainly isn't the only way.

The Redeemer said give to Caesar what is due to him because that is a property of a son of God. We are to obey all laws of the land we are in until it conflicts with the Most High God. We were ignorant enough to demand human leadership instead of being a nation under the Most High God, so we have to pay tributes to men, and man-kings, et cetera. That is more of a commentary on us; the Most High God just required a tithe for His priests - and those were based on increase of the land (not just you giving up what you don't have).

Robert6671 · May 19, 2019

Kaon said:
It's fine playing dirty if we call it that, not something virtuous. There are other ways to catch major criminals; dirty isn't the only way. It may the way that we think works best, but it certainly isn't the only way.

The Redeemer said give to Caesar what is due to him because that is a property of a son of God. We are to obey all laws of the land we are in until it conflicts with the Most High God. We were ignorant enough to demand human leadership instead of being a nation under the Most High God, so we have to pay tributes to men, and man-kings, et cetera. That is more of a commentary on us; the Most High God just required a tithe for His priests - and those were based on increase of the land (not just you giving up what you don't have).

Okay maybe there are more honorable way to do it...but when you a criminal like a one of those cartel bosses who cause thousands of people pain and suffering every year...rapes, murders, drug dealing, sex trafficking...the worst of the worst..those victims...could care less about your moral beliefs or being honorable...they want the bad guys gone. Truth is good and honorable people do not accomplish much. Its those who are willing to do what ever is necessary. I get what you guys are talking about...and its a fairy tell. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. You try to do it honorably...and if you cant...you play dirty.

Kaon · May 19, 2019

Robert6671 said:
Okay maybe there are more honorable way to do it...but when you a criminal like a one of those cartel bosses who cause thousands of people pain and suffering every year...rapes, murders, drug dealing, sex trafficking...the worst of the worst..those victims...could care less about your moral beliefs or being honorable...they want the bad guys gone. Truth is good and honorable people do not accomplish much. Its those who are willing to do what ever is necessary. I get what you guys are talking about...and its a fairy tell. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. You try to do it honorably...and if you cant...you play dirty.

I get what you are saying as well. What I am saying (in my opinion) isn't as fantastical as you may think. For example, a lot of crime bosses are supported by the very entities sworn to protect and serve the public. That makes things complicated. It becomes a bunch of negatives giving you the same results the positive could give (the Redeemer way).

Now, I also think what you are saying works for any logical person in the world. But, being set apart means we don't follow the logic of the world - we go a different way. It seems like it is meaningless, but we are working on a scale of eternity, so our actions now affect the world as we know it in the near, and far future. It's easy to mimic psychology to be a more effective opponent/fighter/detective/soldier/etc. I don't actually disagree with you, but I do believe there are better ways. I just don't want to pretend the "logical" way is the virtuous way.

Otherwise, that is why only some people can/should do certain things. At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for their relationship with their Father.

Robert6671 · May 19, 2019

Kaon said:
I get what you are saying as well. What I am saying (in my opinion) isn't as fantastical as you may think. For example, a lot of crime bosses are supported by the very entities sworn to protect and serve the public. That makes things complicated. It becomes a bunch of negatives giving you the same results the positive could give (the Redeemer way).

Now, I also think what you are saying works for any logical person in the world. But, being set apart means we don't follow the logic of the world - we go a different way. It seems like it is meaningless, but we are working on a scale of eternity, so our actions now affect the world as we know it in the near, and far future. It's easy to mimic psychology to be a more effective opponent/fighter/detective/soldier/etc. I don't actually disagree with you, but I do believe there are better ways. I just don't want to pretend the "logical" way is the virtuous way.

Otherwise, that is why only some people can/should do certain things. At the end of the day, each individual is responsible for their relationship with their Father.

I think we all will be judged by god. I also think when we stand in judgement he is going to look at the undercover cop or soldier who went undercover to stop a monster who was harming people, god would take that into account. I think alot of people who think there getting into heaven will not be there. I think alot of people who do not think they are going to heaven or other think will be there. The two criminals on the cross with him..one of them was repentant. He did not ask Jesus to save him..to forgive him...but to simply remember him. Jesus granted him salvation because he was repentant. It is why I think it is more than just how you worship.

Richard T · May 26, 2019

TRVL ONE said:
Are you an undercover officer? You reason like one. You wouldn't or couldn't tell anyways.

No, but I do think that God could give a Christian extra grace to be able to be a undercover officer. Other than assuming an extra identity and deceiving criminals can some bad guys be caught. This work would be far better than the deceivers within the church who basically are pretenders for various reasons. Additionally, an undercover officers that operates within man's law seems far more righteous than any officer that would give false testimony in a court. Lying to a criminal is not a crime, lying to a judge is so differentiating is possible.

Ethical conduct for a Christian can be difficult. For instance, what if you were a missionary and failed to declare upon entering customs needed goods for a mission base? Would that be wrong? Or a Christian family that takes in an illegal immigrant because they had no real home? How about a church that violates copyrights in using worship music? Oops, I have seen that far too much. My personal answer to some of these dilemmas is can one find a righteous alternative? If the answer is no, then you have to examine whether the law of love would supersede, man's law. I think this is sometimes possible but should be rare.

DamianWarS · May 26, 2019

TRVL ONE said:
I don't think Jesus would work as an undercover officer, cussing,lying and deceiving. I can't imagine Jesus pretending to be a foul mouthed drug dealer. What do you think?

Jesus is God incarnate so I would say he did go undercover and he went for the long game.

Paul tells us "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some"

We are bound by Christ's law and I don't mean to suggest we may participate in immorality to save those who are immoral (or that Christ did) But I do think it's important to point out in order to reach people effectively we need to be insiders not outsiders and this may involve us going undercover.

This is called contextualization. I know this is not quite what the OP is addressing but I think it may be a more productive topic.

TRVL ONE · May 27, 2019

DamianWarS said:
Jesus is God incarnate so I would say he did go undercover and he went for the long game.

Paul tells us "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some"

We are bound by Christ's law and I don't mean to suggest we may participate in immorality to save those who are immoral (or that Christ did) But I do think it's important to point out in order to reach people effectively we need to be insiders not outsiders and this may involve us going undercover.

This is called contextualization. I know this is not quite what the OP is addressing but I think it may be a more productive topic.

Sinning isn't included in Christian "undercover work"

TRVL ONE · May 27, 2019

Richard T said:
No, but I do think that God could give a Christian extra grace to be able to be a undercover officer. Other than assuming an extra identity and deceiving criminals can some bad guys be caught. This work would be far better than the deceivers within the church who basically are pretenders for various reasons. Additionally, an undercover officers that operates within man's law seems far more righteous than any officer that would give false testimony in a court. Lying to a criminal is not a crime, lying to a judge is so differentiating is possible.

Ethical conduct for a Christian can be difficult. For instance, what if you were a missionary and failed to declare upon entering customs needed goods for a mission base? Would that be wrong? Or a Christian family that takes in an illegal immigrant because they had no real home? How about a church that violates copyrights in using worship music? Oops, I have seen that far too much. My personal answer to some of these dilemmas is can one find a righteous alternative? If the answer is no, then you have to examine whether the law of love would supersede, man's law. I think this is sometimes possible but should be rare.

If it takes sinning to get the gospel into a country, I take it as a strong NO from God. That it is not time to witness there. An angel in the book of Revelation will finally get the gospel out to the whole world

TRVL ONE · May 27, 2019

I would rather follow the Bible as a guide to catch criminals than the constitution. Do everything to catch criminals that the bible allows.

RDKirk · May 27, 2019

TRVL ONE said:
I would rather follow the Bible as a guide to catch criminals than the constitution. Do everything to catch criminals that the bible allows.

The bible explicitly allows the use of the sword to catch criminals.

ewq1938 · May 27, 2019

His student said:
Jesus "became sin" for our sake to save us.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Being "made sin" is not literally or figuratively being "made sin" this is a figure of speech which actually means being made a "sin offering". He was the sinless/spotless sin atonement lamb.

Barnes:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us - The Greek here is, ‘for him who knew no sin, he hath made sin, or a sin-offering for us.’

Clarke:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us - He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent), a sin-offering for us.

Matthew Henry:

He was made sin; not a sinner, but sin, that is, a sin-offering, a sacrifice for sin.

ewq1938 · May 27, 2019

Robert6671 said:
Evan Jesus says give to ceaser what is ceasers and to god what is gods.

Reminds me of this:

1Co 9:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

His student · May 27, 2019

You mean the literally and physically incarnate Son of Man didn't actually become an abstract concept? What a surprise.

ewq1938 said:
Being "made sin" is not literally or figuratively being "made sin" this is a figure of speech which actually means being made a "sin offering". He was the sinless/spotless sin atonement lamb.

I'm not sure just how a figure of speech statement about His being "figuratively" made sin is not a statement about His "figuratively" being made sin. :scratch:

But OK, I'll play along for now.

As we all know, He was a sin offering.

What's your point?

Robert6671 · May 28, 2019

You know King David killed and god loved him. It seems to me god understands that some jobs like being a king or a soldier requires you to break some of the commandments. Same with being a cop. As far as Jesus...hes god he can do what ever he wants...he knows who is innocent or guilty and could just order the guilty to confess and the guilty party would do it.

timewerx · May 29, 2019

TRVL ONE said:
I don't think Jesus would work as an undercover officer, cussing,lying and deceiving. I can't imagine Jesus pretending to be a foul mouthed drug dealer. What do you think?

Ironically, those foul mouthed drug dealers sees their hearts clearly. They know they're bad.

The Pharisees who think they know the truth, the way, and think they're doing a good job at it failed to realize they are children of hell (the way Jesus puts it)

Would Jesus work as an undercover officer pretending to be a criminal?

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