Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?

Lulav

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Romans 9 starts out with Paul explaining why not all who claim to be Israelites are not. There’s nothing to suggest that he’s switching from individuals to the nation as a whole.
This goes into the genealogy thing. Even in Revelation Jesus speaks about those claiming to be Jews but are not, they are imposters, counterfeits, planted by the enemy.

King Herod was the 'King of the Jews' He claimed Jewish heritage but he was not really of Jacob (Israel) but of Esau (Jacob I loved but Esau I hated).
And just like Esau who tried to kill Jacob, Herod tried to kill Jesus.

One needs to think about why.
 
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Calvin_1985

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Simul iustus et peccator means "both saint and sinner". Christians are saints because we have been justified by God, and we are sinners on account of our sinful flesh. The new man--the new creation in Christ--and the old man are simultaneous. We don't cease to be sinners when we are Christians, because we don't have any righteousness or holiness in and of ourselves--we have only the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ given to us as pure gift by the grace of God. In this life we continue to struggle, in this life we are still mortal, corruptible, sinful creatures; but God in His mercy through what Christ has done for us has forgiven us all our sins, adopted us as children, given us His Holy Spirit, and promised us resurrection and everlasting life, world without end.

We are sinner-saints.

-CryptoLutheran
I guess what I said didn't catch or something with you.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I quoted a whole section from Romans 9.
Romans 9 doesn't count for personal salvation and I explained why to you.

Anyway, what does Romans 9 prove?
What YOU are saying is that God made the vessel for glory or for destruction.

Great. You just proved my point.
IF God made me for destruction and I'm a sinner...
HOW does that make ME responsible for sinning?

This is one of the problems with calvinist theology:
It removes personal responsibility from the person when, instead, the N.T. tell us that we have the free will choice to choose God or not to choose God.

As Joshua says:
Choose this day whom you will serve.
Joshua 24:15
which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”


Choice requires us to decide between two moral possibilities.
 
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GodsGrace101

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If you are correct, why would there be any conditions to avoid hell? I mean, He made us that way, right?
IF God made us to be sinners,
and we sin,
why should there even be a hell?

Do you believe God is a just God?
What makes Him be just?
 
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GodsGrace101

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You’ll have to explain how.
You said you wouldn't go to jail for your children.

Jesus went to the cross for you.


I DID say that analogies of our own families compared to God's family just don't seem to work in the end...
you just proved it.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Grace, by definition, is undeserved.
You're making me do all the work here, while you reply in one sentence.

How about explaining what I've been asking you:

HOW am I personally responsible for sinning if it's God who predestinates EVERYTHING so HE made me be a sinner AND He caused me to sin.

BTW,,,God does not make persons sin...your theology is full of problems.

If you're not going to explain the above question to you, we might as well end our conversation.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I understand that’s what happened. I’m saying that He was under no obligation to provide salvation.
If you understand what happened in the Garden and you feel that God had no obligation to provide a solution to the problem...

Then you truly believe in a god that does not exist.
Now, you may be very proud of the fact that YOU can accept a mean and sovereign god that the rest of us seem unable to accept....

Did you ever wonder WHY?
Perhaps the reason we do not accept this mean, merciless and unjust god, is because He does not exist?
 
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StevenBelievin

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IF God made me for destruction and I'm a sinner...
HOW does that make ME responsible for sinning?

That's the same question Paul hypothetically asks himself in Romans 9:19..

He doesn't answer directly but says we have no right to question God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Beginning of multi-chapter Exegesis

Romans 9-11, Acts 1, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and Galatians 4 and 6:16

~Intro to Romans 9 -inprogress-~

I speak the truth in Christ —I am not lying; my conscience is testifying to me with the Holy Spirit —

Romans 9:1 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:1 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul just made it clear he’s about to be painfully honest, and has bound his words to be judged by God, as He is holding himself in personal accountability of Preaching what he’s about to preach under God.

that I have intense sorrow and continual anguish in my heart.

For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood.

They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises. The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Romans 9:2-5 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:2-5 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul’s heart hurts... why? In verse 2 he immediately reveals he is broken inside!

Verses 3-5 reveal why! Paul literally wishes he could revoke his salvation to give it to a group of people that apparently matter to him enormously. As Paul is speaking under oath of the Holy Spirit, he is revealing God’s heart, as well. This lines up with Christ’s words that close Matthew 23 with deep sorrow and lamenting, but show hope.

Who is making Paul sad? His brothers of “his own flesh and blood”... which is clearly a reference to his unbelieving Jewish brothers of the Broken off nature, of ... what Nation?

Israel as Paul calls these broken off Jews Israelites! Paul specifically notes that they are Israelites of National Israel and goes on to specify that they are so by blood, DNA, Ancestral experience!

Anyone who contests this is ignoring context...

To be edited and continued further.

Continued... Romans 9:6-13

Continued... Romans 9:14-26

Continued... Romans 9:27-28

Concluded... Romans 9:29-33
Great post.
I also posted 3 links to the above scripture, Romans 9, 10 and 11.

As I've said to the O.P.,,,it's very interesting that every biblical scholar agrees with your hermeneutics EXCEPT those of the reformed faith.

If all of Christianity believed one particular doctrine differently from my church,,,I'd pause and try to determine why instead of just accepting it.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Because He is merciful..

Why do you think you deserve His mercy or grace? You certainly cannot earn it.. You have done nothing to deserve it.. Nor has anyone.. Our righteousness is as filthy rags..

The very definition of grace is unmerited (or undeserved) favor.
In verse 8 of Isaiah 64, God is asked to have mercy and not be angry and not remember forever the people's sins because they have been made with HIS hands and they are HIS people.

In chapter 65 The Lord says that persons and nations that ARE SEEKING HIM, ARE FINDING HIM.
In verse 2 it states that God's people follow THEIR OWN path....

Seek and ye shall find.

God reveals Himself to us,
and we reply to Him with either a yes or a no.

The bible clearly states that we have a free will
and are able to accept Him or not.
 
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Hammster

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If that's true then that would mean he is not a loving God, nor one to be respected, he would now be reproachable as anyone would be that would set up someone to fall and then not help them out.
Why would it mean that? He’s the one who established that the wages of sin is death.
 
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Hammster

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"God surely knows the difference between the wheat (those who can be called) and the weeds (those who never belonged to him in the first place). He can call those who are his, but it is still in our freewill to accept that call or not. If he predestines them to conform then that means he has taken back our freewill."



The problem here is the understanding of what Paul is trying to say. God did not pick and choose those who could be called. As I said, He knows who the wheat are, that is not predestination.

It's like saying that the Treasurer of the US knows the difference between the 'real' money and the counterfeit.
If the scenario were as such that stacks of money were placed before him, and he needed to claim what 'belonged' in the treasury then he would be able to separate the real from the counterfeit. He would know because he would be very familiar with his 'creation' so to speak.

So only the 'real' money would be the money worth saving as the counterfeit didn't belong to the treasury in the first place.

It's similar to Noah, he found 'grace' because of his genealogy.
You didn’t answer the question.
 
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Hammster

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IF God made me for destruction and I'm a sinner...
HOW does that make ME responsible for sinning?
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, - Romans 9:19-22
 
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You said you wouldn't go to jail for your children.

Jesus went to the cross for you.


I DID say that analogies of our own families compared to God's family just don't seem to work in the end...
you just proved it.
I’m not His child.
 
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GodsGrace101

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That's the same question Paul hypothetically asks himself in Romans 9:19..

He doesn't answer directly but says we have no right to question God.
Oh. I agree.
The difference between you and me is that I believe in a just God and apparently you do not.
 
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StevenBelievin

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HOW am I personally responsible for sinning if it's God who predestinates EVERYTHING so HE made me be a sinner AND He caused me to sin.

No Calvinist would say God forces people to sin via predestination.

Try reading the Westminster Confession.

1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:30

Who does this passage say are justified? The called or those who responded to the call?

The context of ROMANS 8:30 reads as follows...

ROMANS 8:28-30 [28], And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29], For whom he did FOREKNOW, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30], Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You may need to re-read the scripture here and re-think your interpretation of it brother. The part your missing out is the PRIMARY CONTEXT of the Greek Word PREDESTINATE (PREDETERMINE) which is those that God did FOREKNOW he also did PREDESTINATE (PREDETERMINE). Those who God FOREKNEW would follow him he PREDESTINED (PREDETERMINE) to be called into His image v29-30.

The scripture is not saying that God predetermines all those who will be saved without giving anyone the chance to choose for themselves if they would be saved or not. The scripture above only states that God FOREKNEW ahead of time or had FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would choose His gift of salvation and who would not.

The primary meaning and CONTEXT of the Greek word PREDESTINATE used in v29-39 is to FOREKNOW or FOREKNOWLEDGE. The GREEK Word used for PREDESTINATE here means to determine before or ahead of time (PREDETERMINE). God determined ahead of time because He FOREKNEW ahead of time who would follow Him and who would not. G4309. προορίζω prŏŏrizō, prŏ-or-id´-zo; from G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (fig.) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate. (Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew)

The primary word CONTEXT being FOREKNOW; or to have FOREKNOWLEDGE of who would choose to BELIEVE God's WORD v29 he CALLED v28 and PREDETERMINED ahead of time to be conformed into His Image. This relates back to God's plan of salvation PREDETERMINED from the foundation of the World and given in the Garden of Eden because God had FOREKNOWLEDGE that mankind would sin and had His plan of salvation before sin occoured *1 PETER 1:19-20; EPHESIANS 1:4; GENESIS 3:15

Sent only in love and as a help to you.

God bless
 
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