Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?
- Thread starter Hammster
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You don't agree with God?
God showers His grace on everyone...
It rains on the just and the unjust...
So if we don't deserve God's grace...why does He shower us with it?
Please don't tell me grace is undeserved love....
I know God is a God of LOVE....unlike some that don't think so.
What I'm asking is:
IF we don't deserve grace...
WHY does He give it to us anyway?
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
The choice is ours and God doesn't send us there, he is obliged by His word by our choice. To be in 'Hell' is to live where God doesn't. We choose if we want to spend eternity with him. or not.
Yes, 'depart', he's not sending them, he is asking them to leave his presence (heaven) because that was their choice.
See above.
Then there is another way of looking at it.
Not who will be saved, but rather
Who 'could' be saved.
Think about the parable of the weeds
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
God 'foreknew' who would be the wheat and who would be the weeds.
God surely knows the difference between the wheat (those who can be called) and the weeds (those who never belonged to him in the first place). He can call those who are his, but it is still in our freewill to accept that call or not. If he predestines them to conform then that means he has taken back our freewill.
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- Apr 5, 2007
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If you are correct, why would there be any conditions to avoid hell? I mean, He made us that way, right?
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I understand that’s what happened. I’m saying that He was under no obligation to provide salvation.
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And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:30
Who does this passage say are justified? The called or those who responded to the call?
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Grip Docility
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Romans 9 binds to Exodus where Moses told the Almighty to cross his name off the book of life if the Almighty didn’t see the children of Israel through to the promises God gave them.
Paul starts Romans 9 out with this exact verbiage. Paul wishes he could be Anathema, that His Kinsmen would be Saved. Paul again reinforces this in Romans 10.
Paul posits Grace And Condemnation, while exalting Salvation through Faith in Christ.
At the end of the particular train of thought, Paul explodes into quotation of OT hymn that praises the immeasurable Grace Of God.
Locking Romans 9 into Cannon of Dort based verbiage is like taking James’ statement about “Faith without Works” and building an entire doctrine that disputes Salvation by Faith.
The context is only there when it is read in conjunction with extrabiblical exposition.
Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11 centralized on Rebellious Israel that was cutoff through its rejection of its King, and final rebellion towards the Holy Spirit that occurs at the stoning of Steven.
Paul makes it clear, in all 3 verses that he still has hope for the dead to Christ Jews that are his Kinsmen and makes petition for their salvation, still.
Any other contextual understanding drawn from Romans 9, Romans 10 and Romans 11 is simply ignoring the forest for the trees.
IMO
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Romans 9 starts out with Paul explaining why not all who claim to be Israelites are not. There’s nothing to suggest that he’s switching from individuals to the nation as a whole.
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Grip Docility
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Beginning of multi-chapter Exegesis
Romans 9-11, Acts 1, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and Galatians 4 and 6:16
~Intro to Romans 9 -inprogress-~
I speak the truth in Christ —I am not lying; my conscience is testifying to me with the Holy Spirit —
Romans 9:1 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:1 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Paul just made it clear he’s about to be painfully honest, and has bound his words to be judged by God, as He is holding himself in personal accountability of Preaching what he’s about to preach under God.
that I have intense sorrow and continual anguish in my heart.
For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood.
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises. The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.
Romans 9:2-5 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:2-5 - Holman Christian Standard Bible
Paul’s heart hurts... why? In verse 2 he immediately reveals he is broken inside!
Verses 3-5 reveal why! Paul literally wishes he could revoke his salvation to give it to a group of people that apparently matter to him enormously. As Paul is speaking under oath of the Holy Spirit, he is revealing God’s heart, as well. This lines up with Christ’s words that close Matthew 23 with deep sorrow and lamenting, but show hope.
Who is making Paul sad? His brothers of “his own flesh and blood”... which is clearly a reference to his unbelieving Jewish brothers of the Broken off nature, of ... what Nation?
Israel as Paul calls these broken off Jews Israelites! Paul specifically notes that they are Israelites of National Israel and goes on to specify that they are so by blood, DNA, Ancestral experience!
Anyone who contests this is ignoring context...
To be edited and continued further.
Continued... Romans 9:6-13
Continued... Romans 9:14-26
Continued... Romans 9:27-28
Concluded... Romans 9:29-33
Last edited:
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Because He is merciful..
Why do you think you deserve His mercy or grace? You certainly cannot earn it.. You have done nothing to deserve it.. Nor has anyone.. Our righteousness is as filthy rags..
The very definition of grace is unmerited (or undeserved) favor.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
"God surely knows the difference between the wheat (those who can be called) and the weeds (those who never belonged to him in the first place). He can call those who are his, but it is still in our freewill to accept that call or not. If he predestines them to conform then that means he has taken back our freewill."
The problem here is the understanding of what Paul is trying to say. God did not pick and choose those who could be called. As I said, He knows who the wheat are, that is not predestination.
It's like saying that the Treasurer of the US knows the difference between the 'real' money and the counterfeit.
If the scenario were as such that stacks of money were placed before him, and he needed to claim what 'belonged' in the treasury then he would be able to separate the real from the counterfeit. He would know because he would be very familiar with his 'creation' so to speak.
So only the 'real' money would be the money worth saving as the counterfeit didn't belong to the treasury in the first place.
It's similar to Noah, he found 'grace' because of his genealogy.
The problem here is the understanding of what Paul is trying to say. God did not pick and choose those who could be called. As I said, He knows who the wheat are, that is not predestination.
It's like saying that the Treasurer of the US knows the difference between the 'real' money and the counterfeit.
If the scenario were as such that stacks of money were placed before him, and he needed to claim what 'belonged' in the treasury then he would be able to separate the real from the counterfeit. He would know because he would be very familiar with his 'creation' so to speak.
So only the 'real' money would be the money worth saving as the counterfeit didn't belong to the treasury in the first place.
It's similar to Noah, he found 'grace' because of his genealogy.
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