Women Preachers...The truth!

Jen35

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Women who usurp ministry ARE "of themselves".
I see by your comments about Paul that you are ready to tear down some more of his words.
Doesn't that disposition bother you at all?
And you are right when you say that because maybe most women are, but we are it seems like we are also in a new age and if God wants to bless, empower and anoint women to preach, then let it be so cause in reality you may try to overturn my posts but i dont think anyone can overturn God and close the doors he opens. God has the last word, not you, not I, not Paul, or anyone else on this forum unless of course if it is the spirit of God speaking through people on here. Like I said in my previous responses, Preist and Preistesses of our Lord are people chosen and taken out of the royal preisthood God built anoints and put in position to preach his word through him and the holy spirit. I am not trying to tear Paul's words down but i believe the church is the temple founded by Jesus. And in the bible, Jesus said if the temple was to be torn down he would rebuild it in three days, so if anyone is tearing something down it seems like Paul is doing that about the church, who by the way is a woman characteristic built by Christ. And Christ is the head of the church and nourishes it like his own body because it is his own body knowing he is the head of the church and uses her body, cause she is his temple he dwells in. Jesus doesn't just take care of the outside of the church but most importantly the inside of the church also. By him cleansing, purifying and feeding the church on the word of God because it's his house, his temple, his building. And if others tear it down he will keep rebuilding it in ways just like that until it's completely finish and ready for use because it's his work. The church just has a female characteristic because Jesus is male. And I believe the churchs' body was assigned to him to be cherished because the bible says, because a man shall leave his father and be joined to his wife, they will become one flesh and because they have come together they are no longer two. They are no longer seperated. They have become one flesh in mind, heart, spirit, body, and soul. They are now one in the same body and because it's now his body, he nourishes it like it's his own, like Eve was a woman who was made for Adam because he was a man, the church was made for Christ. So Christ belongs to it. And God says in the bible man shall not be alone. Look, we are all welcome in God's kingdom because we are all one in Christ and we were all made one in his body. And yes, I believe I feel greived by the spirit a bit talking about Paul, but just know it wasn't an intention to tear him down, because honestly, I like a lot of the things he say, however i do believe my words still stand here, he does sound a little boasting in his teachings when i read it in the Bible. But it's just my blunt opinion of it, it's how I feel about things. Ok?...
 
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bmjackson

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@Phil W

"Lead" cannot be confused with "serve".

It seemed to work for Jesus.

"Though they aren't mutually exclusive, the heart of the matter is that the husband is head of the household and also of the church."

The husband is head of the woman not the household. Being the head does not mean what men have made it mean in the church. There are plenty of matters that only women can address and that is why it is necessary for ministry to be in a husband and wife team - just like how Adam and Eve functioned. Why have you changed that order? It does not say in scripture that man must be head of the church in the same way and if you are using the example of the churches in the beginning you are mistaek as it was a time of special significance and persecution whereby women would need protecting.


"His leadership is in service to God, as scripture outlines in multiple places.
BTW, men didn't keep women "out of this important role", the bible did."

Quotations please.

"You site "natural order" but seem to prefer an unnatural order among men and women in ministry. I hope I am misreading you.
You site "natural order" but seem to prefer an unnatural order among men and women in ministry."

Thge natural order is partership but with man taking responsibility for what goes on as he must protect the woman.
I hope I am misreading you.
 
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Ronald

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We have a democracy, and we decide what kind of system we want here. If the majority of Americans want to be more like Denmark, we will make the change. I live in the Pacific Northwest, surrounded by rainforests, mountains, and waterfalls. I have no desire to move to Denmark, but I will continue to work towards an economic system closer to theirs.
You are entitled to your political persuasion.
Btw, Go TRUMP and his MAGA mission. God blessed this nation more than any other in history. Liberalism is destroying it, stepping on our Constitution and traditional values.
Dems will lose in 2020.
But that is another topic ...
 
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W2L

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Teachers in the last days wont teach sound doctrine, im not sure why folks want to follow them.

2 Timothy 4:3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
 
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Ronald

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But Paul said that he wished that those false teachers who taught circumcision would go all the way and castrate themselves.
It's in Scripture, and your argument seems to be that everything in Scripture HAS to be obeyed by us today - even if it wasn't written to us.



That may have been true in some cases.
But my point is that this is also something that Paul said and is in Scripture - are you as passionate about obeying this as you seem to be about criticising female leaders?



You're missing my point.
Paul said that women under the age of 60 do not deserve financial assistance from the church. Your position is that Paul was inspired by God and wrote what God wanted him to write; did God want him to write this? If he did, presumably that means that we have to obey it too, according to your view - so does your church do it? If not, why aren't you doing something that Paul taught - i.e refusing to help women financially because they are too young?



Yes, it does.
But your argument was that Paul wrote exactly what God wanted him to write; so what does that verse mean, especially for someone who doesn't drink alcohol?



Babies aren't born sinful - that would mean that those who died, aged even only 1 day, would be forever condemned.



My point is that everything in Scripture is inerrant, but not everything is to be taken literally, nor is it, necessarily, for us today.
The OT has many laws that we are not under today - yet they are still all written in Scripture.
Paul said that it is disgraceful for men to have long hair and women to have short hair; not today, it isn't.
It is not wrong to read something in Scripture, understand that as cultural advice/a description of life then, and not a universal command that has to be obeyed by us today. Such an action and attitude does not detract from the inerrancy of God's word.



Agreed.
Yet you said that Paul wrote exactly what he was told to write. The implication is that Paul wrote it because God wanted it in there, and the further implication is that if it's in Scripture we need to do it.

The words about women in leadership are not commands, warnings or doctrine and nothing to do with salvation.
If the Word is even partially contrived by the writer, then it is not infallible and so we just can't be sure about some things. But it is infallible. This is how liberal theologians dismantle scripture, pick and choose what they want and discard what doesn't work - which is what you are doing. You bend it to your liking and justify it by saying, "This does not apply to us ... or Paul must not have received God's message and got caught up with his own emotions and opinions."
Certain messages were meant for those Jews at that time, and for Gentiles in various locations and situations. But specifically the OT is the Law and we are not under it. We are under Grace, the New Covenant . Church rules came in the NT for all to understand to this date. The CHURCH has followed this since then, male priests/ pastors, women stop gossiping, be silent in church, obey your husband, be submissive ...
As I said, in the beginning, in Genesis 3, God tells us that the woman would be under the authority of the man. That was their lot in life and that came before the LAW, that came after Creation, where God set down the fundamentals of Life for humanity. Moses wrote that ... so what will you say about that? That's history, Moses did not contrive that. So where are you with that?
You wrestle with that - and so have women been wrestling with it since the beginning.
It's rebelliousness ... But you won't admit it. Keep your views, Jesus will straighten you out someday.
 
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timewerx

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You are entitled to your political persuasion.
Btw, Go TRUMP and his MAGA mission. Go blessed this nation more than any other in history. Liberalism is destroying it, stepping on our Constitution and traditional values.
Dems will lose in 2020.
But that is another topic ...

I assume you're familiar with the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard.

The workers are equally compensated. It didn't matter who came to work first or who did most work. That's how it will be in the Kingdom of God. Denmark's economic system is closer to this one.

I have relatives in Denmark. They say it's paradise over there. People don't care for money :eek:

Isn't that a great thing? Because the love of money is the root of all evil and you cannot serve two masters.

The income gap between the rich and poor is also a "health barometer" of a nation. This number is closely related to crime rates and satisfaction index of a nation among its citizens. It's simply a better way to live. The numbers support it, even the Kingdom of God does the same thing!
 
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Strong in Him

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As I said, in the beginning, in Genesis 3, God tells us that the woman would be under the authority of the man. That was their lot in life and that came before the LAW, that came after Creation,

That came AFTER the fall - part of Eve's punishment. It was not like that in the beginning.

Moses wrote that ... so what will you say about that? That's history, Moses did not contrive that. So where are you with that?

Jesus came to reverse the curses of the fall; reconcile us with his Father, as the second Adam.
He also, I believe, restored women - by deliberately choosing Mary to be the first witness to his resurrection.
Eve was deceived, sinned, was kicked out of the garden, and fellowship with God was broken
Mary was the first to see the risen Lord, in a garden; heard the Good News and given the task of telling his disciples that news. Fellowship restored.

You wrestle with that

No, it all seems quite clear to me - as I said above.

It's rebelliousness ... But you won't admit it.

It's not rebelliousness, it's understanding the Scriptures in a different way.
I could say that the fact that God calls women to preach/Minister today means that clearly he doesn't have a problem with it - but pride will never let you see that.

Jesus will straighten you out someday.

He may need to straighten me out in many ways, but not this - he called me to preach in the first place.
 
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Ronald

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The workers are equally compensated. It didn't matter who came to work first or who did most work. That's how it will be in the Kingdom of God. Denmark's economic system is closer to this one.
The parable is symbolic for God's kingdom, how some labor all their lives for the LORD and get into heaven and others don't yet get in towards the end of their lives. This parable isn't about SOCIALISM, A FALSE IDEA OF UTOPIA. Capitalism is what made America rich and I'll agree that the rich have gotten richer, why? We were taken off the Gold standard and people used to share in the profits of their companies as well. The company grew along with their incomes. That fell by the wayside. It's greed and we are suffering for it.
Paradise reborn will be perfect, fair, but without sin. Man cannot create a perfect form of government because of sin in the world. Sin needs to be abolished and only God can do that. So looking ahead to better times in any country --- I doubt it. Judgment Day is on the horizon - for the entire planet and there will be no escape. No, not even Trump can do anything about that. It was a nice thought (if the Lord tarries) to delay judgment and help to keep our heads above water. Honestly, I think he got elected for a greater purpose than what we see. Not just to expose all the lies, schemes, but we need someone who will not hesitate to push the button when the time comes. Sorry, what do think Iran (#1 terrorist supporter) is gearing up for? Ships are heading that way as we speak. Russia, Syria, Turkey and others are in alliance. We saw the Middle East unravel in the past 9 years, dictators plucked out of their positions (Sadaam, Mubarek, Qudafi). The Iran Nuke deal was negligent and irresponsible. They probably already have nukes and want to annihilate Israel. So stop dreaming about some better world made by man -- it's not gonna happen. The USA had a nice run, but with 20 trillion in debt and the country is divided, something is going to bust.

]
 
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Ronald

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That came AFTER the fall - part of Eve's punishment. It was not like that in the beginning.
And how was it in the beginning? God made Eve out of Adam's rib to be a helpmate and so he would not be alone.

Jesus came to reverse the curses of the fall; reconcile us with his Father, as the second Adam.
He also, I believe, restored women - by deliberately choosing Mary to be the first witness to his resurrection.
Eve was deceived, sinned, was kicked out of the garden, and fellowship with God was broken
Mary was the first to see the risen Lord, in a garden; heard the Good News and given the task of telling his disciples that news. Fellowship restored.

Jesus died for our sins so that we could be saved spiritually. Spiritually there is no male, female, Greek or Jew, we are all in Christ equal - SPIRITUALLY. But he ordered our purpose on earth, while on earth, with the man in authority. He gave us roles, responsibilities and the woman different roles, responsibilities. He ordered laws to be followed by His Chosen Nation and then in the NT, the Church had a structure too.
Spiritually we are equal. Obviously if we both died and went to heaven - perfection, equality. But on earth, as long as their is sin, we need to be responsible in the way He intended us to be.
Btw, women still suffer pain in childbirth, did Jesus reverse that too? Have you suffered that?
Because Mary saw Jesus first, you think that makes our roles now equal? The New Testament was written after that. If it was changed, those scriptures you struggle with would not be there, but they are. Read em and weep.
Listen I attended a Four Square Church for many years where the senior pastor also had women associate pastors. It didn't work. It worked fine in children's church, women's meetings and that's fine until kids got to a certain age and joined the main congregation. But when women got up there and tried to preach to the whole congregation, it was like going to school void of God's presence, everything they said was accurate, academically sound, but I didn't ever feel like the Holy Spirit was speaking to me, not like with Zac Nazarian, the senior pastor of Hermosa Beach Hope Chapel - and what a great pastor! And so now, decades later, you don't see females getting up there - only for women's meetings. The beginnings of that Church always would justify those verses that you struggle with, they would negate them in a way. But I always knew, something was wrong with that. And years later, they rectified the problem.
 
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Ronald

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That came AFTER the fall - part of Eve's punishment. It was not like that in the beginning.
And how was it in the beginning? God made Eve out of Adam's rib to be a helpmate and so he would not be alone.

Jesus came to reverse the curses of the fall; reconcile us with his Father, as the second Adam.
He also, I believe, restored women - by deliberately choosing Mary to be the first witness to his resurrection.
Eve was deceived, sinned, was kicked out of the garden, and fellowship with God was broken
Mary was the first to see the risen Lord, in a garden; heard the Good News and given the task of telling his disciples that news. Fellowship restored.

Jesus died for our sins so that we could be saved spiritually. Spiritually there is no male, female, Greek or Jew, we are all in Christ equal - SPIRITUALLY. But he ordered our purpose on earth, while on earth, with the man in authority. He gave us roles, responsibilities and the woman different roles, responsibilities. He ordered laws to be followed by His Chosen Nation and then in the NT, the Church had a structure too.
Spiritually we are equal. Obviously if we both died and went to heaven - perfection, equality. But on earth, as long as their is sin, we need to be responsible in the way He intended us to be.
Btw, women still suffer pain in childbirth, did Jesus reverse that too? Have you suffered that?
Because Mary saw Jesus first, you think that makes our roles now equal? The New Testament was written after that. If it was changed, those scriptures you struggle with would not be there, but they are. Read em and weep.
Listen I attended a Four Square Church for many years where the senior pastor also had women associate pastors. It didn't work. It worked fine in children's church, women's meetings and that's fine until kids got to a certain age and joined the main congregation. But when women got up there and tried to preach to the whole congregation, it was like going to school void of God's presence, everything they said was accurate, academically sound, but I didn't ever feel like the Holy Spirit was speaking to me, not like with Zac Nazarian, the senior pastor of Hermosa Beach Hope Chapel - and what a great pastor! And so now, decades later, you don't see females getting up there - only for women's meetings. The beginnings of that Church always would justify those verses that you struggle with, they would negate them in a way. But I always knew, something was wrong with that. And years later, they rectified the problem.
 
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timewerx

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The parable is symbolic for God's kingdom, how some labor all their lives for the LORD and get into heaven and others don't yet get in towards the end of their lives. This parable isn't about SOCIALISM, A FALSE IDEA OF UTOPIA. Capitalism is what made America rich and I'll agree that the rich have gotten richer, why? We were taken off the Gold standard and people used to share in the profits of their companies as well. The company grew along with their incomes. That fell by the wayside. It's greed and we are suffering for it.
Paradise reborn will be perfect, fair, but without sin. Man cannot create a perfect form of government because of sin in the world. Sin needs to be abolished and only God can do that. So looking ahead to better times in any country --- I doubt it. Judgment Day is on the horizon - for the entire planet and there will be no escape. No, not even Trump can do anything about that. It was a nice thought (if the Lord tarries) to delay judgment and help to keep our heads above water. Honestly, I think he got elected for a greater purpose than what we see. Not just to expose all the lies, schemes, but we need someone who will not hesitate to push the button when the time comes. Sorry, what do think Iran (#1 terrorist supporter) is gearing up for? Ships are heading that way as we speak. Russia, Syria, Turkey and others are in alliance. We saw the Middle East unravel in the past 9 years, dictators plucked out of their positions (Sadaam, Mubarek, Qudafi). The Iran Nuke deal was negligent and irresponsible. They probably already have nukes and want to annihilate Israel. So stop dreaming about some better world made by man -- it's not gonna happen. The USA had a nice run, but with 20 trillion in debt and the country is divided, something is going to bust.

]

Getting into Heaven is still a form of compensation. Anyway, I'm not talking about socialism.

Denmark is still Capitalist.

Yes, greed/love of money has an end. It's like cancer. Cancer keeps growing uncontrollably without regards for its host which is fragile and only has limited resources until killing its host and itself in the process.
 
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Strong in Him

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And how was it in the beginning? God made Eve out of Adam's rib to be a helpmate and so he would not be alone.

Yes, as his helper and companion. Made by God, just as he was.
Not as his servant and so the man would have someone to dominate.

Jesus died for our sins so that we could be saved spiritually. Spiritually there is no male, female, Greek or Jew, we are all in Christ equal - SPIRITUALLY. But he ordered our purpose on earth, while on earth, with the man in authority. He gave us roles, responsibilities and the woman different roles, responsibilities. He ordered laws to be followed by His Chosen Nation and then in the NT, the Church had a structure too.

That's clearly how you interpret it - fine. Many don't.

Spiritually we are equal. Obviously if we both died and went to heaven - perfection, equality. But on earth, as long as their is sin, we need to be responsible in the way He intended us to be.

Women can be responsible, and be given gifts of leadership. A number are.

Btw, women still suffer pain in childbirth, did Jesus reverse that too? Have you suffered that?

No.
Some women don't suffer pain in childbirth; some don't know that are pregnant or may have a Caesarian.

Because Mary saw Jesus first, you think that makes our roles now equal?

I didn't say that.
I said that just as Christ restored mankind by being the second Adam, I believe that he restored women by choosing a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
I may be wrong in my belief, but that is still a fact that Jesus chose to appear first to Mary.

The New Testament was written after that.

What's that got to do with it?

If it was changed, those scriptures you struggle with would not be there, but they are. Read em and weep.

I don't struggle with them and I've no intention of "weeping" over them. :D

Listen I attended a Four Square Church for many years where the senior pastor also had women associate pastors. It didn't work.

Can't help that. Fact is that some women are called to ordination and to pastor churches - and what's more, they do.

But when women got up there and tried to preach to the whole congregation, it was like going to school void of God's presence, everything they said was accurate, academically sound, but I didn't ever feel like the Holy Spirit was speaking to me,

That's sad - but it doesn't mean, far less prove, that they weren't called to preach.
Maybe they sensed they had no support. Maybe there were people who were openly antagonistic or praying against them. Maybe they were even mistaken about their calling; that happens with both women AND men.

And so now, decades later, you don't see females getting up there - only for women's meetings.

That's up to them; is the Gospel being preached and the church growing? If not, they have bigger problems to worry about.

The beginnings of that Church always would justify those verses that you struggle with,

I don't know where you get the idea that I am struggling with these verses. I'm not, at all.
I have been debating this for all the years, about 13, that I have been on CF. I know every argument and every proof text on the subject.
I know what I am called to do. I am fine.
 
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Sparagmos

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You are entitled to your political persuasion.
Btw, Go TRUMP and his MAGA mission. Go blessed this nation more than any other in history. Liberalism is destroying it, stepping on our Constitution and traditional values.
Dems will lose in 2020.
But that is another topic ...
All empires thought that god blessed them above all. There is no actual data supporting your claim that “dems will lose” in 2020.
 
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Ronald

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Yes, as his helper and companion. Made by God, just as he was.
Not as his servant and so the man would have someone to dominate.



That's clearly how you interpret it - fine. Many don't.



Women can be responsible, and be given gifts of leadership. A number are.



No.
Some women don't suffer pain in childbirth; some don't know that are pregnant or may have a Caesarian.



I didn't say that.
I said that just as Christ restored mankind by being the second Adam, I believe that he restored women by choosing a woman to be the first witness to the resurrection.
I may be wrong in my belief, but that is still a fact that Jesus chose to appear first to Mary.



What's that got to do with it?



I don't struggle with them and I've no intention of "weeping" over them. :D



Can't help that. Fact is that some women are called to ordination and to pastor churches - and what's more, they do.



That's sad - but it doesn't mean, far less prove, that they weren't called to preach.
Maybe they sensed they had no support. Maybe there were people who were openly antagonistic or praying against them. Maybe they were even mistaken about their calling; that happens with both women AND men.



That's up to them; is the Gospel being preached and the church growing? If not, they have bigger problems to worry about.



I don't know where you get the idea that I am struggling with these verses. I'm not, at all.
I have been debating this for all the years, about 13, that I have been on CF. I know every argument and every proof text on the subject.
I know what I am called to do. I am fine.
Well ... 13 years of debating the same topic? You are fine, at peace, yet arguing against scripture seems to be your motivational plight. If you were really at peace with your believes, you wouldn't bother with those who hold the traditional view. I spent years debating evolutionists on their forum and finally threw in the towel. I suppose my Dad being an evolutionist was behind my motivational thrust. I studied the TOE in depth and wrote an editorial thesis on it to refute it. I have it to my Dad and he still didn't budge. Finally before he died, he read a book I wrote about Christianity. His wife caught praying a couple years before he passed.
If God has given you peace in your with your preaching, Amen. God's Word remains and will continue to be followed by most of the Church.
God Bless
 
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Ronald

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All empires thought that god blessed them above all. There is no actual data supporting your claim that “dems will lose” in 2020.
No data, just their debacle in standing behind and lying about a phony dossier and the fake news propaganda spewing out of the Left Wing News like vomit. Now they will have to eat their own vomit as it backfires on them and once those responsible for these schemes are endicted, then we will see if that data will tarnish their efforts. They don't have anyone strong enough to beat Trump. You got Joe Biden.
 
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Strong in Him

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Well ... 13 years of debating the same topic? You are fine, at peace, yet arguing against scripture seems to be your motivational plight. If you were really at peace with your believes, you wouldn't bother with those who hold the traditional view. I spent years debating evolutionists on their forum and finally threw in the towel. I suppose my Dad being an evolutionist was behind my motivational thrust. I studied the TOE in depth and wrote an editorial thesis on it to refute it. I have it to my Dad and he still didn't budge. Finally before he died, he read a book I wrote about Christianity. His wife caught praying a couple years before he passed.
If God has given you peace in your with your preaching, Amen. God's Word remains and will continue to be followed by most of the Church.
God Bless

Not at all.
I preach Scripture, and don't like it when Scripture is misinterpreted and misapplied - especially when that leads to people being made to feel they are wrong, faithless, disobedient or anything else.

If you were really at peace with your believes, you wouldn't bother with those who hold the traditional view.
God Bless

I most likely would, if I felt the traditional view was wrong.
I'm more passionate about Scripture than individual issues.

If God has given you peace in your with your preaching, Amen.

Thank you.

God's Word remains and will continue to be followed by most of the Church.

And those who ordain and allow women to preach.
Contrary to popular conception we are not feminists, determined to get our "rights" nor our own way. Nor are we disobedient, manipulative women; but women who have been born again, filled with the Spirit and want to serve our Lord.

If you don't agree; fine. It's not a matter for salvation.
God bless you too.
 
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