Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?

Hammster said:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. - Matthew 25:41

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Yeah, that's the lake of fire...even hell gets thrown into that! (Revelation 20:14)

Hammster said:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- - Romans 9:14-23

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Romans chapter 9 to 11 has nothing to do with God making vessels of wrath or favoring one over another.

As to the vessels please check chapter 18 of Jeremiah. There it is speaking about how God will treat nations. In Romans chapters 9 to 11 we have the same situation. Paul is speaking about corporate salvation and not personal salvation.

If you check any commentary EXCEPT the commentary of your theology, you'll find that all biblical scholars agree with this.

Romans 9-11: A New View of the Doctrine of Election

https://www.imb.org/topic/deepen-discipleship/romans/romans-9-11/

 Romans 9 - Expository Comments On Romans 9-11


There is far too much to get into on a thread.

Hammster said:

The problem with that interpretation is that ignores the first few verses of Romans 9. The rest of the chapter addresses those verses, which are about individuals.

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I believe it fits. The beginning of chapter 9 is Paul crying for his fellow Jews because they did not accept Jesus as Messiah.

This is made clear in verse 3.
In verse 4 Paul even says that to the Israelites, his kinsmen, belongs the adoption as sons and the promises. He hopes that they will become jealous of the Gentiles and thus come to believe.

It seems that all theologians agree with this interpretation except the reformed.

Hammster said:

But nobody sending themselves.

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Matthew 25
"31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?

38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.

46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."

Hell is even now, right? But, isn't this speaking of a future judgement, wherein even hell will be cast into the lake of fire? Furthermore, isn't the whole context speaking of how we treated "the least of these"?

Hammster said:

Right. And the rest of the chapter explains why some of his kinsmen aren’t actually Israel. It is dealing with individuals, not nations. The nation argument is used by those who hate that God actually elects.

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Gosh H, you're saying most theologians base their beliefs on hate.

Everyone agrees that there is election in the bible.
It's what KIND of election that differs.
You might believe that God elects WHO is saved.
Others believe that God elects HOW we are saved.

I don't want to derail,,,but let's just give a quick look to this:

Romans 8:29-30
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

I want to bring your attention to something above that not many see.

First of all, God FOREKNEW who would be saved. Foreknowing is not a causation.

Those whom He foreknew He predestined to become conformed to His Son. This is HOW they will be saved...NOT WHO. All we know about the WHO will be saved, is that God foreknew.

Check out verse 30: look at the very end.
Those He sanctified, He also glorified.

Does that make sense? God ALREADY glorified those He foreknew? Are they dead already?
No. The language used back then was different and yet we want to hang on every word...we should see the N.T. as a complete idea,,,not verse by verse.

The complete idea is that God loved us and gave us a chance to save ourselves. How we do this is by accepting His Son to be our redemption, or atonement, or savior. It's just that simple.

ViaCrucis said:

Simul iustus et peccator.

-CryptoLutheran

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Speak in English please.

yes..

james 1:13-15

mankind can only make decisions based on what he knows, not what he doesn't know.

Calvin_1985 said:

Speak in English please.

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Simul iustus et peccator means "both saint and sinner". Christians are saints because we have been justified by God, and we are sinners on account of our sinful flesh. The new man--the new creation in Christ--and the old man are simultaneous. We don't cease to be sinners when we are Christians, because we don't have any righteousness or holiness in and of ourselves--we have only the righteousness and holiness of Jesus Christ given to us as pure gift by the grace of God. In this life we continue to struggle, in this life we are still mortal, corruptible, sinful creatures; but God in His mercy through what Christ has done for us has forgiven us all our sins, adopted us as children, given us His Holy Spirit, and promised us resurrection and everlasting life, world without end.

We are sinner-saints.

-CryptoLutheran

Hammster said:

Why would God be unjust to punish sinners for their sins? He’s not obligated to provide salvation, is He?

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Yes, he is. Once mankind sinned the plan of salvation was put in action. The 'serpent' was allowed in the garden for reasons we don't understand, yet. Even though they were tempted and succumbed, the LORD had a plan to redemn them back to himself which was stated in Genesis 3:15. The Torah then explains the rest of the Salvation story, in 'the law', and it came to fruition about 2,000 years ago.

Hammster said:

Let me explain it this way. I have five kids. Everyone of them is given chores, and instruction. Sometimes, they don’t do their chores. Sometimes, they ignore instruction. In these cases there is discipline because like God, we discipline our children (Hebrews 12). But in no case do they ever stop being our children.

So there’s nothing they have to do to be our children. But that doesn’t mean they have nothing that they have to do.

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Exactly, you give them instruction on how to do things to make them thrive. Same with the LORD, he gave his instructions, aka 'The Torah' which is what Torah means, it does not mean 'the law'. Because those chosen were his children and through them he wanted to show who he was as well as to bring the Savior through an untainted line.

Hammster said:

I’m not separating it. I’m saying that our sin (violating the law) has been dealt with on the cross so that if we believe, there’s nothing more we have to do to be saved or stay saved.

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Using the example of your family above how would you accept this scenario?

You have children.
You love them.
You don't want harm to come to them.
So you supply them with teaching of right and wrong.
One of these things is to not steal.
Then one day, they steal and are caught.
You love them so much that you go to court with them and ask the judge to put the sentence on you. You did not steal but you love your child and want them to have a 'clean' record.
The Judge agrees and you serve the time and make the restitution.

After you serve the time you get out and a few days later your child is caught stealing again.

Hammster said:

Simple straightforward question. Does sinful man (all of us) deserve the justice of God?

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We deserve His justice but not His Grace..

Hammster said:

He was not obligated to do that.

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Some posts back I asked you for your thoughts on your above statement....saying that God is not obligated to put a plan of salvation into action.

Why would God NOT be obligated if HE is responsible for our sin? (since HE predestined everything).

Please respond.

StevenBelievin said:

We deserve His justice but not His Grace..

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According to YOUR theology...
GOD MADE us sinful.

So why do you feel we deserve His wrath for doing what HE made us to do?

Hammster said:

He was not obligated to do that.

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He is just and also he is irreproachable.

The scene in the garden was not just God and Adam and Eve. There was also also the serpent and the choice between Good and Evil and the Tree of Life.

God allowed the serpent in there to tempt them and he also gave a choice of choosing between the trees.

If these things were not put into place by God then there would have been no sin.

If you believe that God is Omniscience then you must believe he foreknew man would listen to the serpent over him. He put us into that position, thus why in the very place it happened, the garden, He announced his plan for redeeming fallen mankind.

Hammster said:

I wouldn’t serve time for my children. So I cannot answer that.

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OK, but if you did that great sacrifice, how would you feel about the rest of it?