Majority of Americans say heartbeat abortion bans are not too restrictive

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Day 40 is earlier than women even know they are pregnant.

You think if the timing is restricted women don't have rights? Think again. You have the right to drink but you don't have the right to drink while driving. Does that limit your right to drink beer?

False analogy. You have the right to choose to drink but you never have the right to break the bottle and dismember the helpless sober person next to you that you brought to the bar while he was sleeping. That would be more apt.

So you think the right to choose for reasons other than health ends...when? And why at that point?


Side note. My wife and I knew earlier than 40 days. But we use NFP so we monitor cycles. But it's not the specific days at issue. It's at what point and why would there be a person there who it would not be moral to kill.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
For me it is a matter of viability. If a 7-month old fetus can survive without being hooked up to machines, I certainly would object to aborting it that late.

Many coma victims need a machine? Are they no longer human because of viability?

What about induced medical coma. Need machines but there is a known point where you will not. So like the fetus it would be ok to kill them before the approximate known removal date?

If not why not?

Viability now is earlier than 10 years ago. So ten years ago someone became a person later than today. I trust you see the logical problem there. It's the very definition of arbitrary. It actually moves with conditions.

Persons we're not persons a decade ago at the point where they are now?

Because of illness the born would be not people when they were a week before?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Beloved2018
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
For me it is a matter of viability. If a 7-month old fetus can survive without being hooked up to machines, I certainly would object to aborting it that late.

So you would not be ok with abortion that late. So let's say that child is born. 5 years later the mother is pregnant again but viability is earlier because of scientific advancement. The new child ...was she a person earlier? Or can we abort by the standard applied to the first child?
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,029
3,750
✟287,917.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
For me it is a matter of viability. If a 7-month old fetus can survive without being hooked up to machines, I certainly would object to aborting it that late.
You would compel the woman to give birth against her choice?
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, human cells obviously are 100% human. There is no such thing as a subhuman. That does not mean part of a human is a person. Those cells are only part of a person. A person in the whole body.
What do you mean part of a person?
 
Upvote 0

GodLovesCats

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2019
7,401
1,328
47
Florida
✟117,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
What do you mean part of a person?

Whatever those stem cells become specialized in. They begin to form skin, nerves, arteries, etc. early on. During that process, it is just parts of a body, not the whole body.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
David, viability of a fetus has nothing to do with biotechnology. It is a stage in natural child development.

Not true. Viability when I was born premature was not as early as it is for premature babies today.

Look at listed age of viability in a 30 year old textbook and one today.

So no it is not an objective natural standard.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
1,930
1,714
38
London
Visit site
✟394,147.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
This poll makes me very sad. How low humanity has fallen to not see children as a gift, but as a burden. People talk about rights at the expense of life. Terrible and twisted.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,337
✟788,337.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
David, viability of a fetus has nothing to do with biotechnology. It is a stage in natural child development.

So the girl in the article would not have been a person by medical consensus in 1960 (if we use viability) but is one now.

The consensus of viability was different in the past. It's not a firm point. Mostly it has been defined as the point where survival is greater than 51%

So take two children one from 1960 and one from 2000. Same situations. The 5% survival line in 1960 is the 95% in 2000. For the same girl.

So personhood moved?

Pre-term babies have a far better chance at survival today — but it can be risky and costly

Preterm babies at a glance Pignotti MS, Donzelli G - J Clin Neonatol
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: 1 person
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Whatever those stem cells become specialized in. They begin to form skin, nerves, arteries, etc. early on. During that process, it is just parts of a body, not the whole body.
And a baby is little human being. Still not seeing your point. At every stage of development from conception to 25 years of age, human beings are exactly what they are supposed to be.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
What do you mean by map?
The entire fully formed body already exists in those cells. They are a complete body without it even being complete yet are themselves determining how the body is formed.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,836
794
✟516,876.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is not a rape victim's fault if she gets pregnant. Rape is being forced to have sex after she tells him no. Also, too many states (including Alabama) do not have strict sex education laws. It is not the girl's fault if she has no idea contraceptives are necessary at her age.
We as Christians are expected by the Lord to bear our burdens, hardships...
I Peter 2:19:
For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God.
James 1:12:
Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
James 5:10-11:
Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.
Revelation 2:5:
You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

I hope you get the picture...Christians do not respond to unwanted pregnancy as the world would/or does.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums