Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

createdtoworship · May 18, 2019

hedrick said:

There are two problems. First, it's Hades, not Gehenna. Most likely it is temporary. But more seriously, Jesus is using Jewish folklore to make a point. Father Abraham is their equivalent of Peter at the pearly gates. Neither is Biblical, but both are used when someone wants to talk non-literally or even humorously about judgement.

Click to expand...

this is the second part I will try to post my entire section of Jewish thought on hell:

Simcha Paull Raphael is adjunct assistant professor in Jewish Studies at Temple University, is a spiritual director at Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, Rabbinic Pastor, ordination by Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, Adjunct Faculty, Department of Religion, La Salle University, Philadelphia, Pa., Spiritual Director (1999-2009, Ph.D., Psych, California Institute of Integral Studies, San Francisco, Ca.

and he states that gehennah was in fact more than simply a garbage dump, (which actually is innacurate to say the least- as there is no evidence of garbage in the valley of hinnom) anyways...

according to jewish tradition there were seven levels/names of gehennah, and one of them was sheol. ANyway here is an excerpt of it while he quotes from the traditional texts of the apocrypha to gain context and bearings of this tradition:

" Sheol as a Realm of Torturous Punishment

Associated with Sheol in this period of Jewish history are very strong, harsh images of punishment, affliction, and torment. Sheol never appears as a desirable place to be; it is usually rather dreadful. In the texts of the Apocrypha, we find a proliferation of depictions of torture, punishment, darkness, fire, burning, and so on. The Book of Enoch, interestingly enough, is a precursor to an entire genre of literature—referred to as “Tours of Hell”32—that describes with vivid detail the torments and punishments of the underworlds. In the “tour of hell” given to our antediluvian hero of 1 Enoch, Sheol is unequivocally a realm of postmortem punishment, and it is described with far more imaginative detail than anything we have observed thus far in Jewish afterlife literature.

First Enoch 54, for example, describes how on “the great day of judgment” even lofty rulers will be subjected to burning fire, imprisonment chains, and iron fetters of immense weight before finally being cast into the abyss of complete condemnation (1 Enoch 54:1-6).

Elsewhere we encounter a similar negative fate ascribed to those souls condemned to Sheol: “Woe unto you sinners who are dead! ... You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol; and they shall experience evil and great tribulation—in darkness, nets and burning flame” (1 Enoch 103:7).

Other Images of Gehenna/Sheol

While there is a diverse collection of horrific images associated with Sheol at this point, we do not yet see any comprehensive structural pattern in place. The well-developed “Tour of Hell” motif, which comes into place somewhat later, is in a nascent state at this time. However, to understand the historical evolution of afterlife teachings, it is useful to observe and to catalog recurring motifs and themes of postmortem torment in this period which bridges biblical and rabbinic Judaism. Thus, the following passages from 1 Enoch illustrate the landscape of the underworld in the apocryphal era.

Fire and Burning

In numerous places Gehenna is described as an “abyss... full of fire (1 Enoch 90:26ff.) or a place where there is “a burning worse than fire” (1 Enoch 100:9).

We find more of these images of fire and burning in a section of 1 Enoch (chapters 91-104) dating from the early first century C.E.,33 which speaks of Sheol/Gehenna as follows:

Therefore they shall be wanting in doctrine and wisdom, And they shall perish thereby together with their possessions. And with all their glory and their splendour, and in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution, their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire. (1 Enoch 98:3)

In a similar vein, 1 Enoch 90 describes how the fallen angels and shepherds are subjected to judgment and condemnation to burning by fire:

And behold, they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. And the judgment was held... and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, full of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like fire of abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they were judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned.... (1 Enoch 90:23-26)"

above from:

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife (p. 43). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

now, granted sheol, gehennah was only a prison for 12 months according to jewish tradition, some people got eternal hell:

"However, rabbinic literature does assert that certain classes of sinners are eternally condemned to Gehenna. In particular, heretics, informers, and scoffers (Hebrew: epikorsim), as well as people who have rejected the words of Torah and denied the belief in the resurrection, are sentenced to Gehenna “for all generations” (Rosh Ha-Shanah 17a). Another tradition maintains that only “one who commits adultery with a married woman, publicly shames his neighbor, or fastens an evil epithet upon his neighbor” descends to Gehenna and never reascends (Baba Metzia 58b)."

above from:

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (6/15/2009). Jewish Views of the Afterlife. Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

THE JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA acknowledges the 12 month max but at the same time also talks of eternal gehenna for heretics, adulterers etc:

"after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

…The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

Above from : GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

so it was this context of rabbinical settings that Jesus came and said, "hey you know gehennah? The one the scribes talk about? It is that place that even liars will go to, and it's duration will be forever! NOTE: I don't take the rabinnical view that Hell is torture, I take it literally as the KJV states - torment (more on that difference later)

Simcha Paull Raphael is adjunct assistant professor in Jewish Studies at Temple University, is a spiritual director at Reconstructionist Rabbinical College

only after the sixth century B.C.E . do any conceptions of an afterlife fate for the individual begin to appear within Judaism.

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, copyright 6/15/2009. Jewish Views of the Afterlife , Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

there is no individual self-consciousness apart from the group, tribe, or family clan. (speaking of the importance of close burial to the family tomb)

Raphael, Simcha Paull; Raphael, Simcha Paull (2009-06-15). Jewish Views of the Afterlife (pp. 45-46). Rowman & Littlefield Publishers. Kindle Edition.

“great pain” of Sheol (1 Enoch 22:11). Then, at the time of a future judgment, they will be removed from Sheol and transferred to “the accursed valley,” which, in Jewish tradition, was known as Gei Hinnom, the “Valley of Hinnom,” later simply called Gehinnom, or Gehenna.

To backtrack briefly, the roots of this notion of Gehenna go back to the biblical age. Gehenna is an Aramaic word based on the Hebrew expression Gei Hinnom—the “Valley of Hinnom”—referred to in Joshua (Joshua 15:8) and Jeremiah (Jeremiah 7:30—34). This Valley of Hinnom was a location south of Jerusalem where, in the period of the Israelite monarchy, idolatrous child sacrifices to Moloch were offered. This practice was condemned by the prophets and many Judean kings as a total abomination to the loyalty-demanding YHVH. Although the ritual sacrifices were finally wiped out in the seventh century B.C.E., Gei Hinnom came to be associated with depravity and evil. The term Gei Hinnom continued to maintain its original geographical connotations, referring to the condemned site of child sacrifices.31

However, sometime between the third and second centuries B.C.E. the word Gehinnom came to be associated with the realm of punishment for the dead. Although not used explicitly in the Book of Daniel, it is implied in the phrase “some to shame and everlasting abhorrence” (Daniel 21:2). With Enoch, the idea of Gehenna emerges into the foreground, entering the ever-diversifying repertoire of postmortem conceptions. What we notice at this point, however, is that Gehenna and Sheol are considered to be synonymous, and, in 1 Enoch, these terms are used interchangeably.

Here is a clear example of how these two terms are juxtaposed, used within the context of a passage that is referring to the resurrection of the dead:

In those days, Sheol will return all the deposits which she had received and hell [Gehenna] will give back all that which it owes. And he shall choose the righteous and the holy ones from among the risen dead, for the day when they shall be selected and saved has arrived. (1 Enoch 51:1-3)

Within the same passage there is reference to two different realms of the dead, but the differentiation is ambiguous. We really cannot glean any substantial information suggesting a real difference between these two realms. Generally, as the term Gehenna came into use in this era, it was no different than Sheol. In 1 Enoch, and in other apocryphal texts, these two postmortem conceptions are identical, at least for a short period of time.

GEHENNA—THE REALM OF POSTMORTEM PUNISHMENT

Names of Gehenna

Central to the afterlife teachings of the Rabbis is the notion of Gehenna, or Gehinnom,33 the biblically derived appellation for the realm of postmortem punishment. Whereas in apocryphal literature both Sheol and Gehenna appear interchangeably, in the rabbinic era Gehenna is the term used most frequently to describe the afterlife realm of punitive retribution. Given a great deal of attention in rabbinic literature, the concept of Gehenna rapidly emerged as a central pillar of Jewish afterlife belief.

In the tractate Erubin, Rabbi Joshua ben Levi lists seven of the original names for Gehenna, basing each on a specific biblical passage: Sheol (Jonah 2:2); Abbadon, or Destruction (Psalm 88:12); Be‘er Shakhat, or Corruption (Psalm 16:10); Bor Sha’on, or Horrible Pit and Tit Ha-Yaven, or Miry Clay (Psalm 40:3); Tzalmavet, or Shadow of Death (Psalm 107:10); and Eretz Ha-Takhtit, the Netherworld, which is a tradition34 (Erubin 19a). These seven names are not fixed and others are used elsewhere. According to Midrash on Psalms, the seven names of Gehenna are Sheol, Abbadon (Destruction), Tzalmavet (Shadow of Death), Eretz Takhtit (Netherworld), Eretz Neshiyah (Realm of Forgetfulness), Gehinnom, and Dumah (Silence) (Midrash on Psalms 11:6).35

As traditions about Gehenna evolved, the seven different names came to represent seven different regions or stories within Gehenna, to which the wicked dead are judiciously dispatched. Thus, according to one source: “Behold! There are seven habitations for the wicked . . . according to their works . . .” (Midrash on Psalms 11:6). While we do not find any earlier apocryphal tradition about seven levels of Sheol, it may well be that 4 Ezra 7:80—81, the Salathiel Apocalypse, is a precursor to this idea that there are seven realms in which the wicked are punished. There we find mention of seven different ways the wicked grieve for their sins:

And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God—such spirits shall not enter into habitations but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad in seven ways. (4 Ezra 7:80—81)

createdtoworship · May 18, 2019

sorry for the text formatting it just did that itself:

here is part 2 of jewish view of hell:

Sheol as a Realm of Torturous Punishment

Associated with Sheol in this period of Jewish history are very strong, harsh images of punishment, affliction, and torment. Sheol never appears as a desirable place to be; it is usually rather dreadful. In the texts of the Apocrypha, we find a proliferation of depictions of torture, punishment, darkness, fire, burning, and so on. The Book of Enoch, interestingly enough, is a precursor to an entire genre of literature—referred to as “Tours of Hell”32—that describes with vivid detail the torments and punishments of the underworlds. In the “tour of hell” given to our antediluvian hero of 1 Enoch, Sheol is unequivocally a realm of postmortem punishment, and it is described with far more imaginative detail than anything we have observed thus far in Jewish afterlife literature.

First Enoch 54, for example, describes how on “the great day of judgment” even lofty rulers will be subjected to burning fire, imprisonment chains, and iron fetters of immense weight before finally being cast into the abyss of complete condemnation (1 Enoch 54:1-6).

Elsewhere we encounter a similar negative fate ascribed to those souls condemned to Sheol: “Woe unto you sinners who are dead! ... You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol; and they shall experience evil and great tribulation—in darkness, nets and burning flame” (1 Enoch 103:7).

Other Images of Gehenna/Sheol

While there is a diverse collection of horrific images associated with Sheol at this point, we do not yet see any comprehensive structural pattern in place. The well-developed “Tour of Hell” motif, which comes into place somewhat later, is in a nascent state at this time. However, to understand the historical evolution of afterlife teachings, it is useful to observe and to catalog recurring motifs and themes of postmortem torment in this period which bridges biblical and rabbinic Judaism. Thus, the following passages from 1 Enoch illustrate the landscape of the underworld in the apocryphal era.

Fire and Burning

In numerous places Gehenna is described as an “abyss... full of fire (1 Enoch 90:26ff.) or a place where there is “a burning worse than fire” (1 Enoch 100:9).

We find more of these images of fire and burning in a section of 1 Enoch (chapters 91-104) dating from the early first century C.E.,33 which speaks of Sheol/Gehenna as follows:

Therefore they shall be wanting in doctrine and wisdom, And they shall perish thereby together with their possessions. And with all their glory and their splendour, and in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution, their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire. (1 Enoch 98:3)

In a similar vein, 1 Enoch 90 describes how the fallen angels and shepherds are subjected to judgment and condemnation to burning by fire:

And behold, they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. And the judgment was held... and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, full of pillars of fire. And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. And I saw at that time how a like fire of abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they were judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned.... (1 Enoch 90:23-26)

The Wicked in Sheol as a Spectacle for the Righteous

And He will deliver them to the angels for punishment.... And they shall be a spectacle for the righteous and for His elect.... (1 Enoch 62:11—12)

Eternal Punishment

Know that their soul will be made to descend into Sheol, and they shall be wretched in their great tribulation. And into darkness and chains and a burning flame where there is grievous judgment shall your spirits enter; and the great judgment shall be for all the generations of the world. Woe to you, for you shall have no peace. (1 Enoch 63:10)

Paradise/Heaven

Along with a dualistic conception of Sheol as a realm for both the wicked and the righteous, there emerged in apocryphal literature yet another entirely new conception of Jewish afterlife philosophy—the notion of Paradise, or Heaven, as the abode for the righteous following the last judgment. While the wicked are repeatedly warned of future punishment, the righteous are told:

Be hopeful, because formerly you have pined away through evil and toil. But now you will shine like the lights of heaven, and you shall be seen; and the windows of heaven will be opened for you . . . you are about to be making a great rejoicing like the angels of heaven. (1 Enoch 104:2, 4)

Prior to the first century B.C.E. Heaven, or Paradise (the Hebrew term is Pardes, meaning “orchard”), had been the abode of only two individuals: Enoch and Elijah, both of whom had never died, but ascended to the heavenly realms. However, in the apocryphal era, Heaven becomes somewhat democratized and is conceived of as the final resting place of the righteous and the elect. Thus, in 1 Enoch, we find this philosophical view fully stated: “All the holy ones who are in heaven will bless Him, and all the elect who dwell in the garden of life” (1 Enoch 61:12). Elsewhere Paradise is conceived of as a “garden of righteousness” (1 Enoch 77:3) and the “garden of the righteous” (1 Enoch 90:23).

Thus, we find an increasing diversification within apocryphal literature, leading to the emergence of a conception of Heaven/Paradise as a realm distinct and separate from Sheol/Gehenna. This dualism becomes even more pronounced in the rabbinic period, as well as in all later Jewish afterlife teachings.

The concept of “hell” [Gehenna] is translated the way it is because, as physical beings, we can only relate to concepts after they have been clothed in physical analo-giles. 55

Rabbi Akiva once saw in a vision the shadowy figure of a man carrying a load of wood on his shoulders. “What ails you?” asked the Rabbi. “I am one of those forlorn souls condemned for his sins to the agony of hell-fire,” replied the shadow. “And there is no hope for you?” inquired the Rabbi further in great compassion. “If my little son, who was a mere infant when I died, could be taught to recite the Kaddish, then and only then would I be absolved.” The Rabbi took the boy under his care and taught him to lisp the Kaddish. He was then assured that the father had been released from Gehenna.58

Regarding 3 Enoch it is said:

The souls of the wicked are brought down to Sheol by two angels of destruction, Zaapiel and Samkiel. Samkiel is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. Zaapiel is appointed to bring down the souls of the wicked from the presence of the Holy One, blessed be he, from the judgment of the Shechina to Sheol to punish them with fire in Gehinnom with rods of burning coal.

Origins of Gehenna

The Rabbis had a sense of time that was more often mythical than historical. Even though, as a philosophical concept, the notion of Gehenna did not appear before the sixth century B.C.E. and there is absolutely no mention of this postmortem realm in the creation narratives of Genesis, it was no problem for the Rabbis to assert that Gehenna was fashioned on the second day of creation, along with the firmament, angels, and fire (Genesis Rabbah 4:6, 11:9).

Other teachings within rabbinic literature went even further, asserting that Gehenna was included in the original design of the universe and is among the seven things created before the world (Pesahim 54a; Midrash on Proverbs 8:22; Sifre Deuteronomy 37).36 According to one tradition, the creation of Gehenna actually predates creation by two thousand years (Midrash on Psalms 90:12). These kinds of conflicting traditions were neither uncommon nor problematic for the Rabbis, and certainly not of ultimate importance to their understanding of Gehenna.

Gehenna and the Ethical Worldview of Rabbinic Judaism

When the Rabbis discuss Gehenna, characteristically, they are concerned with the ethical and moral implications of this afterlife realm. The idea of a world of postmortem punishment was very real to the Rabbis and their disciples. They saw Gehenna as an abode of punishment for the person who did not live a righteous life in accordance with the ways of God and Torah (Exodus Rabbah 2:2). That belief was central to their daily lives. Although the Rabbis did define the nature of Gehenna itself, and with increasingly precise detail, the plethora of rabbinic teachings on Gehenna were meant to inspire an individual to lead an ethical life and to practice the fulfillment of mitzvot, or commandments. At every point, the intention behind the doctrine of Gehenna was not to infuse life with fear, but to encourage godliness and holy acts. Ultimately, threat of punishment in Gehenna was used by the rabbinic leaders to motivate the ordinary, average Jew to engage wholeheartedly in a life of Torah and mitzvot.

Throughout rabbinic literature, the Rabbis dealt with questions about who would and who would not be condemned to the punishment and retribution of Gehenna. Not surprisingly, the scholarly Rabbis claimed that a person who makes scoffing, “derogatory remarks about a scholar after [his] death is cast into Gehenna” (Berakhot 19a). Other people, who were obviously part of their daily milieu, such as the rich men of Babylon (Betzah 32b), a teacher who “causes a community to sin” (Yoma 89a), one who practices idolatrous worship (Taanit 5a), and a person who speaks lewdly (Shabbat 33a), were all believed to be condemned to Gehenna.

In the day-to-day dealings of the world, even one learned in Torah had to avoid specific activities or behaviors that might cause one to merit Gehenna. Thus, we find the following talmudic teaching, which gives a glimpse of the values and ethics of the Rabbis:

If a man counts money from his hand into the hand of a woman so as to have the opportunity of gazing at her, even if he can vie in Torah and good deeds with Moses our teacher, he shall not escape the punishment of Gehenna. (Berakhot 61a)

Other sins that, according to the Rabbis, brought upon oneself the postmortem punishments of Gehenna were incest (Erubin 19a), idolatry (Taanit 5a; Midrash on Proverbs 6:1), adultery (Sotah 4b), pride (Avodah Zarah 18b), haughtiness (Baba Batra 10b), anger and losing one’s temper (Nedarim 22a), teaching a pupil who was not worthy (Hullin 133a), and following the advice of one’s wife (Baba Metzia 59a).37

Even though they articulated high standards of morality, the Rabbis were practical-minded people and often proposed specific actions and spiritual practices that individuals could make use of in their daily lives in order to avoid Gehenna. This is spelled out in general terms in the Midrash on Proverbs where Rabbi Eliezer asks Rabbi Joshua: “What should a man do to escape the judgment of Gehenna?” The reply, quite simply, was: “Let him occupy himself with good deeds” (Midrash on Proverbs 17:1). In a similar vein, another text suggests that “he who has Torah, good deeds, humility and fear of heaven will be saved from punishment [in Gehenna]” (Pesikta Rabbati 50:1). While the study of Torah is undeniably an important method for avoiding Gehenna—“people who study Torah will be released from torments of Gehenna” (Midrash on Proverbs 1:5, 2:21)—in some cases, Torah alone is not sufficient:

If the person who comes before God has [knowledge of] Torah in hand, but none of Mishnah, God turns his face away from him, whereupon the wardens of Gehenna overpower him like wolves of the steppe, fall upon him, and fling him into its midsts. (Midrash on Proverbs 10:17)

The Rabbis enumerate a variety of other specific activities that can help a person avoid the punishments of Gehenna: giving charity, sharing one’s bread with the poor, tithing money to teachers and their pupils, and developing an attitude of humility (Pesikta Rabbati 50:1).38 In addition, the Talmud teaches that visiting the sick (Nedarim 40a), teaching Torah to the son of an ignoramus (Baba Metzia 85a),39 and observing the commandments of eating three meals on the Sabbath (Shabbat 118a), all work to save a person from the retribution of Gehenna. Even more, tractate Berakhot describes a simple practice that anyone can follow, that is, saying the Shema not only daily (Berakhot 15b), but with clarity: “If in reciting the Shema, one pronounces the letters distinctly, Gehenna is cooled for him” (Berakhot 15a). Finally, even to the very last, there remains the rabbinic belief in the possibility of personal redemption by turning back to God through teshuvah, or repentance. The Talmud teaches that even at the very gates of Gehenna, it is still possible to repent before God, receive divine mercy, and be granted exemption from the realm of postmortem punishment (Erubin 19a).

The theology behind the Rabbis’ view of Gehenna seems quite simple: a person who sins merits the punishment of Gehenna; but Gehenna can be avoided by practicing a whole system of good deeds, or ethical actions, that is, the mitzvot.

Within the rabbinic worldview, Gehenna was neither a fixed nor a guaranteed experience after death. In addition to the benevolent actions in one’s life, in certain cases, there were other ways of being exempted from the torments of Gehenna. For example, if a person’s life was filled with suffering—such as the case of a poor person, one afflicted with bowel diseases, or one held in captivity by an oppressive government—then such an individual would be exempt from “seeing the face of Gehenna” (Erubin 41b). At the root of the rabbinic notion of Gehenna was an idea of an equitable sense of divine justice in operation, which, although not always obvious in life, would be made apparent to everyone upon death.

createdtoworship · May 18, 2019

here is part 3 of jewish view of hell:

Duration of Punishment in Gehenna

The Rabbis often discuss the duration of punishment in Gehenna. The generally accepted belief was that the punitive tortures of Gehenna are time-limited, not eternal. Eternal punishment was never accepted as a doctrinal belief in rabbinic Judaism. Gehenna was conceived of as a temporary abode widely believed to last a maximum of twelve months. This idea is reflected in both early and later texts.

The tractate Shabbat stipulates that “the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months” (Shabbat 33b). Similarly, we find elsewhere in the Talmud the view that both Jewish and gentile sinners are sent to Gehenna and punished there for a period of twelve months (Rosh Ha-Shanah 17a). Even the generation of the Flood, among the more notorious evildoers in biblical history, were believed to have spent only a maximum of twelve months in the Gehenna (M. Eduyyot 2:10; Genesis Rabbah 28:8).

However, rabbinic literature does assert that certain classes of sinners are eternally condemned to Gehenna. In particular, heretics, informers, and scoffers (Hebrew: epikorsim), as well as people who have rejected the words of Torah and denied the belief in the resurrection, are sentenced to Gehenna “for all generations” (Rosh Ha-Shanah 17a). Another tradition maintains that only “one who commits adultery with a married woman, publicly shames his neighbor, or fastens an evil epithet upon his neighbor” descends to Gehenna and never reascends (Baba Metzia 58b).

Even though there is evidence of a belief in the enduring punishment of Gehenna, it is accurate to say that the notion of eternal damnation never became predominant within the rabbinic worldview. The Rabbis always maintained that in addition to its punitive aspects, Gehenna served as a realm of purgation and purification. During the twelve-month period in Gehenna, the soul goes through a process of purification and atonement, and, as described in Midrash Pesikta Rabbati, “after going down to Gehenna and receiving the punishment due him, the sinner is forgiven from all his iniquities, and like an arrow from the bow he is flung forth from Gehenna” (Pesikta Rabbati 53:2). After this experience, the soul is sufficiently purified and able to enter the supernal postmortem realm of Gan Eden, the Garden of Eden (Exodus Rabbah 7:4).

This belief stands in sharp contrast to the Christian notion of hell and damnation reflected in St. Augustine’s City of God, an eschatological text from this same time period, c. fourth century.40 Whereas St. Augustine’s teachings have influenced Christian (and hence, Western) society by emphasizing the notion that sin leads to eternal suffering in hell, rabbinic sources, on the other hand, definitely did not exclusively focus on punishment and damnation but rather always taught that Gehenna was a transitional purificatory experience for the soul. As we will see in subsequent chapters, this idea is developed even further in the medieval period.

Diverse Characteristics of Gehenna

In addition to the ethical aspects of the concept of Gehenna, rabbinic writings portray a variety of imagistic impressions of this postmortem domain of retribution and torment. Talmudic and midrashic texts provide descriptive detail on the characteristics, qualities, and dimensions of Gehenna and the types of punishments received in that realm. Of course, there is never one consistent picture or image presented. Instead, rabbinic tradition builds on earlier textual material, continually changing and diversifying the descriptions of Gehenna.

The best way to capture the rabbinic style is through the following collage of texts portraying various mythic images of Gehenna.41

The Dimensions of Gehenna

While certain rabbinic teachers claim that Gehenna “had no limit in size” (Taanit 10a), others attempt to portray the dimensions of this realm, at least in relative terms. Thus, the Talmud also teaches that

the world is a sixtieth a part of Gan Eden and Gan Eden is a sixtieth a part of Gehenna; consequently the whole world is in comparison to like the lid of a pot. Some declare that Gan Eden is limitless in extent and others say the same of Gehenna. (Taanit 10a)

But generally, the dimensions of Gehenna cannot be fixed with great precision. In fact, another tradition has it that Gehenna itself can expand in proportion to the number of wicked sinners:

The wicked say tauntingly, “How many myriads can Gehenna hold? Two hundred myriads? Three hundred myriads? How can it ever hold the many myriads more of the wicked who appear in every generation?” To them the Holy Blessed One replies: By your downfall! As you increase in the world, Gehenna, too, increases, growing wider and deeper and broader every day. (Pesikta Rabbati 41:3)

Location of Gehenna

Generally, the Rabbis assumed that Gehenna was to be found beneath the earth. A number of early rabbinic texts speak of how sinners “go down to Gehenna” (Rosh Ha-Shanah 16b; M. Avot 5:22). This idea that Gehenna is found in a subterranean region is, in all probability, a vestige of the biblical notion that Sheol is beneath the earth, in the ground where the dead reside.42

The Rabbis were not content simply to accept that Gehenna was beneath the earth; they also reflected upon where it might be found. Some suggested it existed in the East, others that it was in the West (Baba Batra 84b). One tradition locates Gehenna “above the firmament” (Tamid 32b); another suggests it was found “at the left hand of God” (Pesikta de-Rav Kahana 191a).

Entrances to Gehenna

According to one tradition there are seven doors of entry into Gehenna (Pirkei de Rabbi Eliezer, chapter 53). But in no way is this a fixed number, and according to another source, there are three entrances to Gehenna:

Gehenna has three [entrances]: One in the wilderness, a second in the sea, and a third in Jerusalem. Another tradition tells, there are two date-palms in the valley of Ben-Hinnom from between which smoke ascends and that is the entrance of Gehenna. (Erubin 19a)

Another midrashic text claims there are two gates of entry into the postmortem realm of retribution:

R. Abba bar Kahana taught: Sheol [i.e., Gehenna] has two gates, an inner and an outer. Whenever a man’s life is taken without God’s permission [as by suicide or murder], his soul must finish out in the outer regions of Sheol [i.e., Gehenna] the remainder of the years he was to live. That Sheol [i.e., Gehenna] has more than one gate [i.e., several regions] is intimated in the verse: “I said: In the noontide of my days I shall go, even to the gates of Sheol” (Isaiah 38:10). (Pesikta Rabbati 24:1)

Elements of Gehenna—Fire, Snow, Hail

Of the various elements of Gehenna, the principal one is a fire of abnormal intensity: “[Ordinary] fire is a sixtieth of [the fire of] Gehenna” (Berakhot 57b). And:

“A fiery stream issued forth and came before Him” [Daniel 7:10]. Whence does it originate? From the sweat of the holy Hayyot. And whence does it empty itself? Upon the heads of the wicked in Gehenna; as it is said, “It shall burst upon the head of the wicked” [Jeremiah 23:19]. (Hagigah 13a)

In another instance it is stated that “Gehenna is half fire and half hail” (Exodus Rabbah 51:7). And elsewhere, another opinion includes the element of snow:

The Holy Blessed One judges the wicked in Gehenna for twelve months. At first he afflicts them with itching; after that with fire, at which they cry out “O! O!” and then with snow, at which they cry out “Woe! Woe!” (P. Sanhedrin 29b)

createdtoworship · May 18, 2019

here is part 4 of jewish view of hell:

Elements of Gehenna—Brimstone and Smoke

Another element of Gehenna is brimstone: “Why does a man’s soul shrink from the odor of brimstone? Because it knows that it will be judged therein in the World to Come” (Genesis Rabbah 51:3).

In addition, there is the element of smoke: “Gehenna is narrow on the top and wide below” (Sifre Deuteronomy 35:7, 149b); the reason for this is “its mouth is narrow so that its smoke may be retained therein” (Menahot 99b).

Darkness of Gehenna

Finally, there are numerous textual references to Gehenna as a place of darkness:

The wicked are darkness, Gehenna is darkness, the depths are darkness. I lead the wicked to Gehenna and cover them with the depths. (Genesis Rabbah 33:1)

They who descend to Gehenna will be judged by nothing else than darkness; as it is said, “A land of darkness, as darkness itself” [Job 10:22]. (Tanhuma, Noah 1)

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven, and there was thick darkness [Exodus 10:22]. Where did the darkness originate? From the darkness of Gehenna. (Tanhuma, Bo 2)

With what are the wicked covered in Gehenna? With darkness . . . “And darkness was upon the face of the deep” [Genesis 1:2]. This refers to Gehenna—a proof that the darkness which came upon the Egyptians was from Gehenna. (Exodus Rabbah 14:3)

What we have delineated here is only a cross section of the imagery associated with Gehenna. Teachings about Gehenna were integral to rabbinic ideas about life after death, and the Rabbis took a great deal of “theological license” in painting a wretched and forlorn picture of life in Gehenna. From what we have seen here, the Rabbis certainly had a far more elaborate notion of Gehenna than is found in either biblical or apocryphal tradition. But rabbinic Judaism was only a stopping point along the way in developing Jewish conceptions of a realm of postmortem torment. Later generations—both the medieval midrashists and the kabbalists—delineated the topography of Gehenna, and its multifaceted types of suffering, anguish, and torture with even more loathsome and lurid detail.

Masekhet Hibbut Ha-Kever— “Tractate of the Pangs of the Grave”24

Rabbi Eliezer’s pupils asked him, “What judgment is there in the grave?” He replied, “When a man quits this world, the Angel of Death comes to him and sits by his grave, and beating it with his hands, says, ‘Tell me your name.’ ‘Flesh and blood is my name. It is revealed and known to Him who said, and the world was. But I do not know what my name is.’ Then immediately the soul reenters his body. He stands up and is brought to judgment.”

Rabbi Joshua ben Levi says, “They bring a chain of iron, half of it burning like fire, half as cold as ice, and they beat him with it. At the first stroke his limbs get separated; at the second, his bones are scattered. Then the ministering angels gather them together, and restoring him, beat him a third time, and demand of him an account and reckoning, and judge him measure for measure.

”On the second day they judge him in the same manner.

“On the third day they judge him further, and they punish his two eyes, his two hands, his two feet and his two ears, his mouth and his tongue. Why are his eyes punished? Because he looked with them upon transgression. Why his ears? Because he heard sinful utterances with them. Why his lips? Because he uttered with them words of foolishness. And why his tongue? Because he has testified falsely with it. Why his two hands? He committed violence and robbery with them. Why his two legs? Because he hastened with them to transgression.” Rabbi Yehudah says, “Whoever has gone to a married woman shall hang ignominiously in Gehinnom; and whoever slanders his neighbor shall be suspended by his tongue.”

Rabbi Meir, in the name of Rabbi Joshua, says, “The judgment in the grave is more severe than that in Gehinnom, for in Gehinnom only they are judged who are thirteen years old and upwards; but in the grave, stillborn children and perfectly righteous men, and even sucklings, are brought to judgment.” Hence the sages have said, “He who dwells in the Land of Israel and dies on Sabbath eve at the time of the blowing of the shofar, as long as the sun shines he shall not see the judgment in the grave; while he who loves righteousness and chastisement, charitable deeds and hospitality to strangers, although not living in the Land of Israel, shall see neither the judgment of the grave nor that in Gehinnom, as it is said, ‘From the midst of trouble’ refers to the beating in the grave. ‘From the depth of Sheol I cried.’ This refers to the punishment in Gehinnom.”

Ben Azay says, “There are three kinds of judgments, one more severe than the other; moreover, they are all inflicted in the presence of the Holy Blessed One.” “But,” asks Rabbi Akiva, “are they all in the Holy Blessed One’s presence?” “Clearly the angels inflict the judgment in the grave [Din Hibbut Ha-Kever] and also that in Gehinnom, but only the judgment of heaven [Din Shamayim] alone is inflicted in the presence of the Holy Blessed One!” Three days are given over to the judgment in the grave, three days to that in Gehinnom, and three days to the judgment in heaven.25 If there is no charge against a man, he is not brought up for judgment; but if there are charges against him, the judgment may last long.

The punishment of transgressing Israelites is twelve months in Gehinnom, as it is said, “And it shall come to pass at the renewal of the new moon and at the renewal of the Sabbath.” Just as the weeks form a cycle, so the months form an annual cycle, and then shall all flesh prostrate themselves before the Holy Blessed One. Rabbi Yohanan ben Nuri says, “The time extends from Passover until Pentecost, as it is said, ‘And from one festival to the other,’ during which the sabbaths are counted.” Some sinners are judged in Gehinnom from Passover until Pentecost, after which time they are acquitted; others, again, such as the consummately wicked of Israel, obtain no rest for the whole twelve months.

“While others who have violated the whole of the Torah and the precepts and have sinned against the Torah of God, going the idolatrous way of the nations, shall have their bodies and souls burnt. Gehinnom vomits them out, and the north wind scatters them, so that they become ashes under the soles of the feet of the righteous, as it is said, ‘And on account of the doings of the wicked, behold they shall become ashes beneath your feet on the day when I execute judgment.’

”Further, those who leave the community, the apostates, traitors, renegades, scoffers, those who despise the holy days, deny the resurrection of the dead and the divinity of Torah are swallowed up by Gehinnom; the doors are locked upon them, and there they are left a prey to eternal punishment, as it is said, ‘And they go forth and look upon the carcasses of those that have transgressed against Me, for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.’”

GEHENNA TEXTS

Next, we will look at a series of five texts that elaborate on the theme of punishment in Gehenna. The texts presented, all of which appear in English translation in Chronicles of Jerahmeel, form the corpus of Masekhet Gehinnom.

Like Masekhet Hibbut Ha-Kever, Masekhet Gehinnom, or “Tractate of Gehinnom,” is a compendium of various texts that exists in a number of different recensions. In a broad sense, Masekhet Gehinnom can be best seen as a family of texts that build on the theme of sins and their punishments.

These texts are in the tradition of visionary “Tours of Hell” that grow out of the Book of Enoch and relate historically, at least in a general sense, to Jewish Merkavah literature. There are comparable visionary tours of the punishments of hell in both Christian and Muslim traditions.26

In the “Tours of Hell” texts, characteristically, one individual is guided through the hell realms, often accompanied by an angel.27 Here, as in many Gan Eden texts, it is Rabbi Joshua ben Levi who is given guided tour of the habitations of the dead. According to Jewish legend, Joshua ben Levi was able to outsmart the Angel of Death and entered the realms of Gan Eden alive.28 Like Enoch, Joshua ben Levi became the subject of Jewish visionary writings. He is often depicted as the one who meets Elijah, the Messiah, and other notables as he travels through the arcane multidimensional realms of the universe where the righteous dead and the tortured wicked are to be found.

The first chapter of Masekhet Gehinnom speaks of two bands of angels at the entrance to Gehinnom, three gates through which one enters, and five different kinds of fire. These are images that bear resemblance to the portrayal of Gehenna in rabbinic writings. What is evidenced here is the unfolding of the midrashic process. Old motifs and themes are elaborated upon, and, in contrast with earlier talmudic and midrashic texts, there is an increasing complexification of images in the medieval writings.

A major theme in the Masekhet Gehinnom texts is that of sins and their punishments. In some of the texts that follow, we find a recurrence of the motif of specific postmortem punishment meted out based on the nature of one’s sins. Individual senses and body parts are tortured in retribution for behavioral transgressions involving such senses, limbs, genitals, breasts, hair, and so on.

Essentially, the operating principle working here is the biblical notion of “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” (Exodus 21:24; Leviticus 24:20), which is an underpinning in legal codes throughout the ancient Near East. Even in the rabbinic period, this principle operates, evidenced, for example, in Mishnah Sotah 1:8—9.29

On the value of these Gehenna texts, Saul Lieberman writes:

The investigation of the visions of Gehenna is not only of interest to lovers of mysticism and folklore, but has a much broader scope. At times, there is reflected in these visions men’s views on judicial justice, on sin and its punishment. Moreover, some of the cruel punishments used by the Roman authorities were inserted into Gehenna from real practice, and the authors were only speaking of the ordinary custom.30

The tortures detailed in the Gehenna texts do appear as macabre to our modern sentimentalities, but they are really no more so than Twin Peaks, Robo-Cop, and other media epics of violence and torture. These midrashim have a moralizing quality to them, and undoubtedly this was one of the goals of the original authors. “Don’t sin with your mouth, or your mouth will be tortured!” “Don’t sin with your hand, or your hand will be tortured!” This is the message that the Masekhet Gehinnom texts endeavor to communicate to the Jewish masses of the medieval world.

The text entitled Compartments of Gehenna is built on the rabbinic teachings on the seven names of Gehenna. The compartments here are named Sheol, Beer Shakhat, Tit Ha-Yaven, Shaarei Mavet, Abbadon, Shaarei Tzalmavet, and Gehinnom.

In Rabbi Joshua ben Levi and the Seven Compartments of Gehinnom the names of the compartments are not mentioned, but in each compartment is to be found an accompanying angel that is named in this text.

The Hebrew word for “compartment” is madorei, which is a play on the word madura, or “fireplace.” Hence, we might say that there are seven fiery realms of Gehenna in these texts, with accompanying angels of destruction.31

Table 6-1 outlines the contents of the realms of Gehenna evidenced in the final two texts of this section.

createdtoworship · May 18, 2019

here is part 5 of jewish view of hell:

Masekhet Gehinnom—“Tractate of Gehinnom”32

1. It is said: “Who can stand before its might, who can withstand the fury of its wrath?” (Nahum 1:6). Rabbi Abahu opened his homily with the verse: “Alukah has two daughters called Hab, Hab” (Proverbs 30:15).33 Rabbi Eliezer says that these are the two bands of angels that stand at the Gates of Gehinnom and say, “Come! come!” Why is it named Gehinnom (Valley of Wailing)? Because the voice of its wailing traverses the world from one end to the other. And why is it called Tofteh (“enticer”)? Because all enter there enticed by their evil inclination.

Chapter 1 begins here:

2. Rabbi Yohanan began his homily with the verse “Passing through the valley of weeping, they make it a valley of springs” (Psalm 84:7). This means to say that the sinner confesses, just as the leper confesses; and he says: “I have committed such and such a transgression in that place, on that day in the presence of So-and-so, in that society.” TABLE 6-1 COMPARTMENTS OF GEHENNA

3. Gehinnom has three gates: one at the sea, the other in the wilderness, and the third in the inhabited part of the world. That at the sea is alluded to in Jonah: “Out of the belly of Sheol cried I, and you heard my voice” (Jonah 2:3). That is the wilderness, of which it is said: “So they and all that appertained to them went down alive into Sheol” (Numbers 16:30). And that in the inhabited portion of the world in Isaiah: “Says the Lord, whose fire is in Zion and His furnace in Jerusalem” (Isaiah 31:9).

4. Five different kinds of fires are in Gehinnom: one devours and absorbs; another absorbs and does not devour; another devours but does not absorb; while another, again, neither devours nor absorbs. There is further the fire that devours fire.

5. There are coals big as mountains, and coals big as hills, and coals huge like the Dead Sea, and coals like huge stones. There are rivers of pitch and sulfur flowing and fuming and seething.

6. The punishment of the sinner is thus: the Angels of Destruction throw him to the flame of Gehinnom; this opens its mouth wide and swallows him, as it is said, “Therefore Sheol has enlarged herself and opened her mouth without measure, and their glory and their multitude and their pomp, and he that is joyful, shall do down in it” (Isaiah 5:14). This all happens to him who has not done one single pious act that would incline the balance toward mercy.

7. While that man who possesses many virtues and good actions and learning, and who has suffered much, he is saved from Gehinnom, as it is written, “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff shall comfort me” (Psalm 23:4). “Your rod” means the suffering, and “Your staff” signifies the law.

Chapter 2 begins here:

8. Rabbi Yohanan began: “The eyes of the wicked shall fail, and refuge is perished from them, and their hope shall be the giving up of the ghost” (Job 11:20). That means, a body that is never destroyed, and whose soul enters a fire that is never extinguished; of these speaks also the verse, “For their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched” (Isaiah 66:20).

Masekhet Gehinnom—“Tractate of Gehinnom” (continued)34

1. Rabbi Joshua ben Levi said, “Once upon a time I was walking on my way, when I met the Prophet Elijah. He said to me, ‘Would you like to be brought to the Gate of Gehinnom?’ I answered, ‘Yes!’ So he showed me men hanging by their hair, and he said to me, ‘These were the men that let their hair grow to adorn themselves for sin.’ Others were hanging by their eyes; these were they that followed their eyes to sin, and did not set the Holy Blessed One before them. Others were hanging by their noses; these were they that perfumed themselves to sin. Others were hanging by their tongues; these were they that had slandered. Others were hanging by their hands, these were they that had stolen and robbed. Others were hanging ignominiously; these were they that had committed adultery. Others were hanging by their feet; these were they that had run to sin. He showed me women hanging by their breasts; these were they that uncovered their breasts before men, to make them sin.

2. ”He showed me further men that were fed on fiery coals; these were they who had blasphemed. Others were forced to eat bitter gall; these were they that ate on fast days.

3. “He showed me further men eating fine sand; they are forced to eat it, and their teeth are broken; and the Holy Blessed One says to them, ‘O you sinners! when you used to eat that which you stole and robbed it was sweet in your mouth; now you are not able to eat even this,’ as it is said, ‘You have broken the teeth of the wicked’ (Psalm 3:8).

4. “He showed me further men who are thrown from fire to snow, and from snow to fire; these were they that abused the poor who came to them for assistance; therefore are they thus punished, as it is said, ‘You have caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water.’ He showed me others who were driven from mountain to mountain, as a shepherd leads the flock from one mountain to another. Of these speaks the verse: ‘Like sheep they are appointed to Sheol; death shall be their shepherd; and the upright shall have the dominion over them in the morning; and their form shall waste away in Sheol, leaving behind their dwelling’” (Psalm 49:15).

5. Rabbi Yohanan said, “For every sin there is an angel appointed to obtain the expiation thereof; one comes first and obtains his expiation, then follows another and so on until all the sins are expiated. As with a debtor who has many creditors, and who come before the king to claim their debts, and the king delivers him to them, and says, ‘Take him and divide him between yourselves,’ so also is the soul delivered in Gehinnom to cruel angels, and they divide it among themselves.”

Chapter 3 begins here:

6. Three descend to Gehinnom forever, and do not ascend anymore—the man who commits adultery, who blames his neighbor in public, and who is guilty of perjury. Others say those who seek honor for themselves by slandering their neighbors, and those who make intrigues between man and wife in order to create strife among them.

7. On the eve of the Sabbath the sinners are led to two mountains of snow; there they are left until the end of the Sabbath, when they are taken back from there and brought again to their former places. An angel comes and thrusts them back to their former place in Gehinnom. Some of them take, however, snow and hide it in their armpits to cool them during the six days of the week, but the Holy Blessed One says to them: “Woe to you who steal even in Gehinnom,” as it is said, “Drought and heat consume the snow waters, so does Sheol those who have sinned” (Job 24:19). That means to say, “They sin even in Sheol.”

Chapter 4 begins here:

8. Every twelve months the sinners are burned to ashes, and the wind disperses them and carries those ashes under the feet of the righteous, as it is said, “And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the sole of your feet” (Malachi 3:21). Afterward, their soul is returned to them, they are released from Gehinnom, and they come out black as the blackness of a pot, and they acknowledge the justice of their punishment and say, “You have rightly sentenced us and rightly judged us. With You is righteousness and with us shame, as it is with us today.”

Punishments of Gehenna35

There are five kinds of punishments in Gehinnom, and Isaiah saw them all. He entered the first compartment and saw there two men carrying pails full of water on their shoulders, and they pour that water into a pit, which, however, never fills. Isaiah said to the Holy Blessed One, “O You who unveils all that is hidden, unveil to me the secret of this.” And the Spirit of the Lord answered, “These are the men who coveted the property of their neighbors, and this is their punishment.”

He entered the second compartment, and he saw two men hanging by their tongues; and he said, “O You who unveils the hidden, reveal to me the secret of this.” He answered, “These are the men who slandered, therefore they are thus punished.”

He entered the third compartment, and he saw there men hanging by their organs. He said, “O You who unveils the hidden, reveal to me the secret of this.” And He answered, “These are the men who neglected their own wives, and committed adultery with the daughters of Israel.”

He entered the fourth compartment and saw there women hanging by their breasts, and he said, “O You who unveils the hidden, reveal to me the secret of this.” And he answered, “These are the women who uncovered their hair and rent their veil, and stay in the open marketplace to suckle their children, in order to attract the gaze of men and to make them sin; therefore they are punished thus.”

He entered the fifth compartment and found it full of smoke. There were all the princes, chiefs, and great men, and Pharaoh, the wicked, presides over them and watches at the gate of Gehinnom, and he says unto them, “Why did you not learn from me when I was in Egypt?” Thus he sits there and watches at the gates of Gehinnom.

There are seven compartments in Gehinnom, and in each of them are 7,000 rooms, in each room 7,000 windows, in each window [recess] there are 7,000 vessels filled with venom, all destined for slanderous writers and iniquitous judges. It is to that that Solomon alludes when he says, “And you mourn at your latter end when your flesh and your body are consumed.”

The other nations, however, and the idolators are punished in the seven compartments of Gehinnom, in each compartment for twelve months. And the River of Light [Nehar Dinur] flows from beneath the Throne of Glory and falls over the heads of the sinners, and the sound travels from one end of the world to the other.

All these punishments are prepared for the apostates, for those who deny the resurrection of the dead, for the renegades, slanderers, and traitors. Of these King Solomon said, “Their evil shall be as bitter as wormwood.” None of these are saved unless they repent, acquire learning, and perform pious deeds. But at the end the Holy Blessed One will have pity on all His creatures, as it is said, “For I will not always chide, nor keep anger forever, for the spirit shall pass before Me and the souls which I have made” (Psalm 103:9).

createdtoworship · May 18, 2019

part 6 of jewish view of hell:

Compartments of Gehenna36

There are besides in every compartment 7,000 holes [crevices], and in every hole there are 7,000 scorpions. Every scorpion has 300 slits [cavities]: in every slit are 7,000 pouches of venom, and from each of these flow six rivers of deadly poison. When a man touches it, he immediately bursts, every limb is torn from him, his body is cleft asunder, and he falls dead upon his face. The Angels of Destruction collect his limbs, set them aright, and revive the man and place him upon his feet, and take their revenge upon him anew. This takes place in the uppermost compartment, which is called Sheol. The height thereof is 300 years’ journey, the width 300 years’ journey, and its length the same.

The second compartment is Beer Shakhat, of the same height, width, and length. The third is Tit-Hayaven, of equal size. The fourth is Shaarei Mavet, of the same size. The fifth, Abbadon, of the same size. The sixth, Shaarei Tzalmavet, of the same size. The seventh, Gehinnom, of the same size. Thus the length of hell is altogether 6,300 years’ journey. [We read further that the fire of Gehinnom is one-sixtieth of the fire of Shaarei Tzalmavet, and so of every consecutive compartment until the fire of Sheol.] Sheol consists half of fire and half of hail [ice], and when the sinners contained therein emerge from the fire they are tortured by the hail [ice], and when they emerge from the hail [ice] the fire burns them, and the angels who preside over them keep their souls within their bodies. As it is said, “For their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”

Every day the Angel of Death comes and drives them on like cattle from mountain to valley and from valley to mountain, as it is said, “They are sent down to Sheol like sheep; death acts like a shepherd unto them.” The Angels of Destruction punish the sinners for twelve months in Gehinnom. After twelve months they revive their bodies and lower them to Shaarei Mavet, where they are again punished for twelve months. Then they are lowered into Shaarei Tzalmavet, and after twelve months’ punishment they are lowered into Tit-Hayaven, and again after twelve months’ punishment they are lowered into Beer Shakhat. Thence, after the same lapse of time, to Abbadon, and finally, after twelve months’ punishment, they are lowered then into Sheol, where they are seen by the righteous, who say, “O Lord, who are merciful to all Your creatures, let it be enough for them!” But the Holy Blessed One answers, “It is not yet enough, for they have destroyed My temple, and have sold My children as slaves among the nations.” Then they are lowered to Arqa, and placed beneath the river of fire that flows from beneath the Throne of Glory, and he who is lowered into Arqa ascends no more.

Above Arqa is Tehom, and above Tehom is Tohu. Above this is Bohu, and above Bohu is the sea [Yam], and above the bottom of the sea are the waters. Above the waters is the inhabited world, on the surface of which rise the mountains and dales. This earth is inhabited by man and beasts, by the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. Therein is Torah, charity, and piety, and the fear of the Lord.

At the time of judgment 6,000 angels of trembling surround man and lead him to the place of judgment, where they weigh his merit and his guilt in the balance. Then if his guilt turns the scale they lead him to Gehinnom and hand him over to the angels of terror, and these again to the angels of anguish, and these to the angels of trembling; the angels of trembling then to the Angels of Destruction, who hand him over to the Angel of Death. He throws him into the depth of Gehinnom, as it is said, “And the angel of the Lord punishes him.”

If, however, his merits turn the scale, they lead him to the gates of Gan Eden and hand him over to the ministering angels, who hand him over to the Angels of Peace, and these to the Angels of Mercy, who bestow great honor upon him in Gan Eden.

Rabbi Joshua ben Levi and the Seven Co

mpartments of Gehinnom37

After this I implored [the Messiah] and said, “Show me Gehinnom, which I desire to behold.” But he would not allow me. And I said to him, “Why will you not let me see it?” To which the Messiah answered and said, “It is not meant for the righteous to see it, for there are no righteous people in Gehinnom.”

I then sent to the angel Kushiel38 that he might measure Gehinnom from beginning to end; but he was not able to do so, because at that time Rabbi Ishmael, Rabbi Shimon, son of Gamliel, and ten other righteous men were put to death. I tried, but could not succeed.

After this, I went to the angel Kushiel, who went with me until I came before the fire at the Gates of Gehinnom. The Messiah [also] went with me, and when the wicked in Gehinnom saw the light of the Messiah, they rejoiced and said, “This one will bring us forth from this fire.” They showed me then a compartment in Gehinnom, which I entered, and, going round it, I measured it.

Rabbi Joshua said, “When I measured the first compartment of Gehinnom, I found it to be one mile in length and breadth, and behold, there were many open pits in which were lions, and the lions were of fire. There were also two brooks, and when the wicked people fall therein, they are swallowed up, and lions of fire standing above cast them into the fire.

When I measured the second compartment, I found it as the first, and I asked the same questions as I asked about the first, and they made the same reply. There were in it some of the nations of the world, presided over by Absalom, and one nation says to the other, “If we have sinned, it is because we did not wish to accept the law; but you, what sin have you committed?” And they reply, ”We have committed the same sin as you.” And they say to Absalom, “If you have not listened, your ancestors have done so. And why have you then been punished in such a manner?” “Because,” he replied, “I did not listen to the exhortations of my father.”

An angel stands with a rod of fire, and this angel that smites them is named Lahatiel. He orders the other angels to throw them down and to burn them, and one by one they are brought in, and after smiting them, they are cast upon the fire and burned until all the people have been consumed. After this, Absalom is brought in to be smitten, when a voice is heard to say, ”Do not smite him nor burn him because he is one of the sons of those whom I love, who said on Mount Sinai, ‘We shall do, and we shall hear.“’ After they have finished smiting and burning the wicked these emerge from the fire just as if they had not been burnt; they are then smitten again, and again thrust into the fire, and this is repeated seven times every day and three times every night. But Absalom is saved from all this because he is one of the sons of David.

The third compartment contains seven nations of the world, who are judged in the same manner, and Korah and his company are with them. The name of him who smites them is Shaftiel. But Korah and his company are saved from all this, because they exclaimed on Mount Sinai, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

The fourth compartment contains four nations of the world, with Jeroboam to preside over them, and the one who smites them is named Machtiel. But Jeroboam is delivered from all these punishments, because he descended from those who exclaimed, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

In the fifth compartment they are judged likewise. It contains seven nations, with Ahab among them, and he who smites them is named Khutriel. But Ahab is delivered from all this, because his ancestors said on Mount Sinai, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

The sixth compartment, containing ten nations of the world, is judged likewise, and Micah is among them, and the angel who smites them is named Pusiel. But Micah is rescued from all this, because his ancestors also exclaimed on Mount Sinai, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

The seventh compartment contains six nations of the world, which are judged in the same manner, and among them is Elisha ben Abuya; and the angel who smites them is named Dalkiel. But one cannot see the other [compartments] on account of the darkness, for the darkness that existed before the creation of the world is now there.

The Zohar maintains the traditional seven-tiered schema for Gehenna. In one place, it is taught that the seven realms of Gehenna correspond directly with the seven names for the yetzer hara, “the evil inclination,” which causes a person to sin, and to be brought to Gehenna (II, 263a; Zohar Hadasah 79a). Elsewhere, Zoharic tradition asserts that the seven regions of Gehenna are designated for particular categories of sinners, who receive specific types of punishment:

Gehenna has seven doors which open into seven habitations; and there are also seven types of sinners: evildoers, worthless ones, sinners, the wicked, corrupters, mockers, and arrogant ones; and corresponding with them are the habitations in Gehenna, for each kind a particular place, all according to grade. (II, 150b)

There is no consistent tradition on the names of the seven realms of Gehenna. In certain textual passages only some of these netherworld regions are named:

We have learned that the sinners of Gehinnom are in different stories, and that Gehinnom has a number of gates corresponding to those of Gan Eden, each with its own name. There is one story lower than all the rest which consists of a story on a story, and that is called nether Sheol, “Sheol” being one story and “nether” another below it. (III, 285b)

Other names of Gehenna mentioned in the Zohar are Abbadon and “boiling filth” (II, 150b). It is claimed that a person who has never repented descends to Abbadon (III, 286b). In one place, the Zohar states that it is possible to ascend upward from Sheol, but not from Abbadon (III, 178b). Typical of the inconsistencies evidenced in kabbalistic eschatology, elsewhere it is taught that “of all the grades of Gehinnom there is none so hard as Sheol” (III, 54b).

Hebrews 6 states:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

So apparently there is no repentance after falling away either here, nor in the afterlife, so purgatory would be of no avail.

I had another few posts of material, but I feel this suffices to prove that Jews believed in a firery hell

ToddNotTodd · May 18, 2019

gradyll said:
sir you said this"almost infinite number of potential gods/bad afterlifes"

so you did actually say what I said you did.

So you don’t understand there’s a difference between “infinite”, which is what you claimed I said, and “almost infinite”?

If that’s the case, I don’t think anyone should trust any of your opinions...

besides, proving something is possible is not what we are debating. Green leprachans could have possibly created us, or purple elephants for that matter. Possibility means nothing, for literally everything is possible. If not in this dimension, in other dimensions.

A. That’s demonstrably false. There’s an endless number of impossible things.

B. Like I said before, the wager relies on potential, and not proven, possibilities.

so you provide no actual data in your rebuttal, and thus your rebuttal is lacking in citation.

You don’t seem to understand what the wager actually entails. I’ve explained it to my son, and he gets it. I’m wondering why I’m failing to get through to you...

Oh, and I’m happy to say that the woman I know who recently deconverted, in part due to your posts, is now considering changing her stance on social issues like trans rights and abortion.

So congratulations are in order for the both of us.

mmksparbud · May 18, 2019

gradyll said:
part 6 of jewish view of hell:

Compartments of Gehenna36

There are besides in every compartment 7,000 holes [crevices], and in every hole there are 7,000 scorpions. Every scorpion has 300 slits [cavities]: in every slit are 7,000 pouches of venom, and from each of these flow six rivers of deadly poison. When a man touches it, he immediately bursts, every limb is torn from him, his body is cleft asunder, and he falls dead upon his face. The Angels of Destruction collect his limbs, set them aright, and revive the man and place him upon his feet, and take their revenge upon him anew. This takes place in the uppermost compartment, which is called Sheol. The height thereof is 300 years’ journey, the width 300 years’ journey, and its length the same.

The second compartment is Beer Shakhat, of the same height, width, and length. The third is Tit-Hayaven, of equal size. The fourth is Shaarei Mavet, of the same size. The fifth, Abbadon, of the same size. The sixth, Shaarei Tzalmavet, of the same size. The seventh, Gehinnom, of the same size. Thus the length of hell is altogether 6,300 years’ journey. [We read further that the fire of Gehinnom is one-sixtieth of the fire of Shaarei Tzalmavet, and so of every consecutive compartment until the fire of Sheol.] Sheol consists half of fire and half of hail [ice], and when the sinners contained therein emerge from the fire they are tortured by the hail [ice], and when they emerge from the hail [ice] the fire burns them, and the angels who preside over them keep their souls within their bodies. As it is said, “For their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”

Every day the Angel of Death comes and drives them on like cattle from mountain to valley and from valley to mountain, as it is said, “They are sent down to Sheol like sheep; death acts like a shepherd unto them.” The Angels of Destruction punish the sinners for twelve months in Gehinnom. After twelve months they revive their bodies and lower them to Shaarei Mavet, where they are again punished for twelve months. Then they are lowered into Shaarei Tzalmavet, and after twelve months’ punishment they are lowered into Tit-Hayaven, and again after twelve months’ punishment they are lowered into Beer Shakhat. Thence, after the same lapse of time, to Abbadon, and finally, after twelve months’ punishment, they are lowered then into Sheol, where they are seen by the righteous, who say, “O Lord, who are merciful to all Your creatures, let it be enough for them!” But the Holy Blessed One answers, “It is not yet enough, for they have destroyed My temple, and have sold My children as slaves among the nations.” Then they are lowered to Arqa, and placed beneath the river of fire that flows from beneath the Throne of Glory, and he who is lowered into Arqa ascends no more.

Above Arqa is Tehom, and above Tehom is Tohu. Above this is Bohu, and above Bohu is the sea [Yam], and above the bottom of the sea are the waters. Above the waters is the inhabited world, on the surface of which rise the mountains and dales. This earth is inhabited by man and beasts, by the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. Therein is Torah, charity, and piety, and the fear of the Lord.

At the time of judgment 6,000 angels of trembling surround man and lead him to the place of judgment, where they weigh his merit and his guilt in the balance. Then if his guilt turns the scale they lead him to Gehinnom and hand him over to the angels of terror, and these again to the angels of anguish, and these to the angels of trembling; the angels of trembling then to the Angels of Destruction, who hand him over to the Angel of Death. He throws him into the depth of Gehinnom, as it is said, “And the angel of the Lord punishes him.”

If, however, his merits turn the scale, they lead him to the gates of Gan Eden and hand him over to the ministering angels, who hand him over to the Angels of Peace, and these to the Angels of Mercy, who bestow great honor upon him in Gan Eden.

Rabbi Joshua ben Levi and the Seven Co

mpartments of Gehinnom37

After this I implored [the Messiah] and said, “Show me Gehinnom, which I desire to behold.” But he would not allow me. And I said to him, “Why will you not let me see it?” To which the Messiah answered and said, “It is not meant for the righteous to see it, for there are no righteous people in Gehinnom.”

I then sent to the angel Kushiel38 that he might measure Gehinnom from beginning to end; but he was not able to do so, because at that time Rabbi Ishmael, Rabbi Shimon, son of Gamliel, and ten other righteous men were put to death. I tried, but could not succeed.

After this, I went to the angel Kushiel, who went with me until I came before the fire at the Gates of Gehinnom. The Messiah [also] went with me, and when the wicked in Gehinnom saw the light of the Messiah, they rejoiced and said, “This one will bring us forth from this fire.” They showed me then a compartment in Gehinnom, which I entered, and, going round it, I measured it.

Rabbi Joshua said, “When I measured the first compartment of Gehinnom, I found it to be one mile in length and breadth, and behold, there were many open pits in which were lions, and the lions were of fire. There were also two brooks, and when the wicked people fall therein, they are swallowed up, and lions of fire standing above cast them into the fire.

When I measured the second compartment, I found it as the first, and I asked the same questions as I asked about the first, and they made the same reply. There were in it some of the nations of the world, presided over by Absalom, and one nation says to the other, “If we have sinned, it is because we did not wish to accept the law; but you, what sin have you committed?” And they reply, ”We have committed the same sin as you.” And they say to Absalom, “If you have not listened, your ancestors have done so. And why have you then been punished in such a manner?” “Because,” he replied, “I did not listen to the exhortations of my father.”

An angel stands with a rod of fire, and this angel that smites them is named Lahatiel. He orders the other angels to throw them down and to burn them, and one by one they are brought in, and after smiting them, they are cast upon the fire and burned until all the people have been consumed. After this, Absalom is brought in to be smitten, when a voice is heard to say, ”Do not smite him nor burn him because he is one of the sons of those whom I love, who said on Mount Sinai, ‘We shall do, and we shall hear.“’ After they have finished smiting and burning the wicked these emerge from the fire just as if they had not been burnt; they are then smitten again, and again thrust into the fire, and this is repeated seven times every day and three times every night. But Absalom is saved from all this because he is one of the sons of David.

The third compartment contains seven nations of the world, who are judged in the same manner, and Korah and his company are with them. The name of him who smites them is Shaftiel. But Korah and his company are saved from all this, because they exclaimed on Mount Sinai, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

The fourth compartment contains four nations of the world, with Jeroboam to preside over them, and the one who smites them is named Machtiel. But Jeroboam is delivered from all these punishments, because he descended from those who exclaimed, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

In the fifth compartment they are judged likewise. It contains seven nations, with Ahab among them, and he who smites them is named Khutriel. But Ahab is delivered from all this, because his ancestors said on Mount Sinai, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

The sixth compartment, containing ten nations of the world, is judged likewise, and Micah is among them, and the angel who smites them is named Pusiel. But Micah is rescued from all this, because his ancestors also exclaimed on Mount Sinai, “We shall do, and we shall hearken.”

The seventh compartment contains six nations of the world, which are judged in the same manner, and among them is Elisha ben Abuya; and the angel who smites them is named Dalkiel. But one cannot see the other [compartments] on account of the darkness, for the darkness that existed before the creation of the world is now there.

The Zohar maintains the traditional seven-tiered schema for Gehenna. In one place, it is taught that the seven realms of Gehenna correspond directly with the seven names for the yetzer hara, “the evil inclination,” which causes a person to sin, and to be brought to Gehenna (II, 263a; Zohar Hadasah 79a). Elsewhere, Zoharic tradition asserts that the seven regions of Gehenna are designated for particular categories of sinners, who receive specific types of punishment:

Gehenna has seven doors which open into seven habitations; and there are also seven types of sinners: evildoers, worthless ones, sinners, the wicked, corrupters, mockers, and arrogant ones; and corresponding with them are the habitations in Gehenna, for each kind a particular place, all according to grade. (II, 150b)

There is no consistent tradition on the names of the seven realms of Gehenna. In certain textual passages only some of these netherworld regions are named:

We have learned that the sinners of Gehinnom are in different stories, and that Gehinnom has a number of gates corresponding to those of Gan Eden, each with its own name. There is one story lower than all the rest which consists of a story on a story, and that is called nether Sheol, “Sheol” being one story and “nether” another below it. (III, 285b)

Other names of Gehenna mentioned in the Zohar are Abbadon and “boiling filth” (II, 150b). It is claimed that a person who has never repented descends to Abbadon (III, 286b). In one place, the Zohar states that it is possible to ascend upward from Sheol, but not from Abbadon (III, 178b). Typical of the inconsistencies evidenced in kabbalistic eschatology, elsewhere it is taught that “of all the grades of Gehinnom there is none so hard as Sheol” (III, 54b).

Hebrews 6 states:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

So apparently there is no repentance after falling away either here, nor in the afterlife, so purgatory would be of no avail.

I had another few posts of material, but I feel this suffices to prove that Jews believed in a firery hell

It is informative and interesting to know what the Jews believed. However, where in the NT does it say we are to get our doctrines from them instead of the bible?

cvanwey · May 18, 2019

RDKirk said:
There is only confusion on things that are not really important.

If you don't believe God or the afterlife exist anyway, then debates about the afterlife are not important to you.

You have to become convinced of the significance of God in your current life before a question about an afterlife gains any importance to you. Debates about the afterlife are for believers, not for unbelievers.

This is where so much modern evangelism and apologetics gets mired down in evangelistic non-essentials...and also a way that non-believers mire them down in evangelistic non-essentials.

But you do understand this is an apologetics forum right? Which means, people of doubt, or unbelievers, challenge believers and their beliefs/claims/assertions/faith.

My point is simple... Regardless of what I currently believe or don't believe, does the Bible indicate hell is forever, or temporary? It's a simple question really.

Thoughts?

RDKirk · May 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
But you do understand this is an apologetics forum right? Which means, people of doubt, or unbelievers, challenge believers and their beliefs/claims/assertions/faith.

My point is simple... Regardless of what I currently believe or don't believe, does the Bible indicate hell is forever, or temporary? It's a simple question really.

Thoughts?

Apologetics is best for believers with additional questions.

createdtoworship · May 19, 2019

ToddNotTodd said:
So you don’t understand there’s a difference between “infinite”, which is what you claimed I said, and “almost infinite”?

If that’s the case, I don’t think anyone should trust any of your opinions...

You don’t seem to understand what the wager actually entails. I’ve explained it to my son, and he gets it. I’m wondering why I’m failing to get through to you...

Oh, and I’m happy to say that the woman I know who recently deconverted, in part due to your posts, is now considering changing her stance on social issues like trans rights and abortion.

So congratulations are in order for the both of us.

no sir, there is no difference between infinite and almost infinite, in fact the phrase almost infinite is rarely used because one need only say "infinite."

A. That’s demonstrably false. There’s an endless number of impossible things.

B. Like I said before, the wager relies on potential, and not proven, possibilities.

yes while there is an infinite number of impossible things, there is not an infinite number of possibilities which is what you actually said, and of which I asked for proof of, but since we can't prove it, I assume you have a blind faith in an infinite number of possible scenarios, in which I cannot help you, but religion may help you with that faith.

secondly, the wager does not rely on potential possibilites, but rational possibilities. Rational possibilities create more potential, yes, but potential is not what we are looking for, we should always strive for the most logical choice.

createdtoworship · May 19, 2019

mmksparbud said:
It is informative and interesting to know what the Jews believed. However, where in the NT does it say we are to get our doctrines from them instead of the bible?

I was just correcting the myth that you mentioned that views of hell were from jewish folklore.

createdtoworship · May 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
But you do understand this is an apologetics forum right? Which means, people of doubt, or unbelievers, challenge believers and their beliefs/claims/assertions/faith.

My point is simple... Regardless of what I currently believe or don't believe, does the Bible indicate hell is forever, or temporary? It's a simple question really.

Thoughts?

it's very obvious that the bible very clearly states hell is forever, and that there is a lake of fire, unbelievers will be cast into.

ToddNotTodd · May 19, 2019

gradyll said:
no sir, there is no difference between infinite and almost infinite, in fact the phrase almost infinite is rarely used because one need only say "infinite."

It is truly nonsensical to think there’s no difference between “infinite” and “almost infinite”, as the word “almost” is a modifier for the word “infinite”, and means “nearly but not fully”. I’m truly surprised you don’t realize that. It’s how the English language works.

Now, if it’s the case that you do realize it but won’t admit it, I think it might be your pride getting in the way again...

yes while there is an infinite number of impossible things

I’m glad you’re finally admitting that.

there is not an infinite number of possibilities which is what you actually said,

This is an untruth. Do you not care about being accurate when you put words in people’s mouths?

and of which I asked for proof of, but since we can't prove it, I assume you have a blind faith in an infinite number of possible scenarios, in which I cannot help you, but religion may help you with that faith.

Since we both know (along with anyone else reading this) this isn’t true, I’m wondering what you’re trying to accomplish with being so seemingly dishonest. Is this part of the whole “doing apologetics by being so acerbic that everyone shies away from Christianity” routine?

secondly, the wager does not rely on potential possibilites, but rational possibilities. Rational possibilities create more potential, yes, but potential is not what we are looking for, we should always strive for the most logical choice.

If something is irrational, it can’t be a potential. “Potential” obviously implies “rational”.

Show what’s irrational about a deistic god who has never provided evidence of their existence.

If you can’t logically do that, then that god becomes a “potential” god for the wager.

mmksparbud · May 19, 2019

gradyll said:
I was just correcting the myth that you mentioned that views of hell were from jewish folklore.

I don't remember that one--was it me that said that or someone else?

cvanwey · May 19, 2019

gradyll said:
it's very obvious that the bible very clearly states hell is forever, and that there is a lake of fire, unbelievers will be cast into.

Tell that to @Tone

Because he feels it's 'very obvious' of the opposite. One of you are wrong. How do we reconcile this conclusion?

Tone · May 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
Tell that to @Tone

Because he feels it's 'very obvious' of the opposite. One of you are wrong. How do we reconcile this conclusion?

Tone said:
This is who we know will be in the lake of fire: "the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog", "the devil that deceived them", " the beast", "the false prophet", "death", "hell", and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life".

*None of which are His children, but rather, they are the seed of the serpent.

Tone said:
Hell is on the way to heaven...
So keep your head up and keep on stepping...
Keep taking all Yah's Breath in...
And learn all your Holy lessons...
You'll make it to the top...
And meet the Almighty Presence!

Tone said:
Revelation 20:14

Tone said:
James 1:13
"13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone."

James 1:14-15
"14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin,when it is fully grown, gives birth to death."

I have sent myself to hell many times...

(My quotes from Does sinful man deserve God’s justice?)

I have said the above ^.

I know that hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire. Whether or not there is an eternal conscious torment there or an utter and complete destruction...I don't know.

*Is hell and death even conscious?

createdtoworship · May 19, 2019

ToddNotTodd said:
It is truly nonsensical to think there’s no difference between “infinite” and “almost infinite”, as the word “almost” is a modifier for the word “infinite”, and means “nearly but not fully”. I’m truly surprised you don’t realize that. It’s how the English language works.

Now, if it’s the case that you do realize it but won’t admit it, I think it might be your pride getting in the way again...

I’m glad you’re finally admitting that.

This is an untruth. Do you not care about being accurate when you put words in people’s mouths?

Since we both know (along with anyone else reading this) this isn’t true, I’m wondering what you’re trying to accomplish with being so seemingly dishonest. Is this part of the whole “doing apologetics by being so acerbic that everyone shies away from Christianity” routine?

If something is irrational, it can’t be a potential. “Potential” obviously implies “rational”.

Show what’s irrational about a deistic god who has never provided evidence of their existence.

If you can’t logically do that, then that god becomes a “potential” god for the wager.

Sir because infinite is such a high number of possibilities, saying almost infinite for our purposes is synonymous with infinite. I am astonished you cannot see that. Whenever you say almost infinite, I can say infinite and do no major damage to the statement.

createdtoworship · May 19, 2019

cvanwey said:
Tell that to @Tone

Because he feels it's 'very obvious' of the opposite. One of you are wrong. How do we reconcile this conclusion?

Simply read the OP, there is more than one of us that can reveal the truth of the matter her on this thread.

createdtoworship · May 19, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I don't remember that one--was it me that said that or someone else?

Not exactly sure. I thought there was only one annihilationist here, but now there is more.

It was hendrick:
Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

do you believe in a literal eternal hell fire?

no hell does not exist

no it just means death

it means separation from God, not eternal hell fire

it means what it says, eternal conscious hell fire.

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