Women Preachers...The truth!

Sparagmos

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When the church has power over God, I will tolerate a woman having headship over her husband.
But that isn't the order outlined in scripture, is it?
Who is calling for women to have headship over their husbands?
 
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Ronald

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Denmark, Sweden and Finland all are at the top of quality of life rankings. They blow the U.S. out of the water on pretty much all measures. Seriously, sex with animals? Where do you get this stuff? Oh, the NY Post. Lol.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...-20/why-danes-happily-pay-high-rates-of-taxes
If it's so great, move over there - liberals seem to hate the U.S. so much they want to change everything. Utopia cannot be achieved by any society because of sin. Wherever you travel, you will find it. We have friends in Denmark and they have visited many times, wanting to live here instead - a much better life they say ... unless you live in one of those sanctuary cities or like California - the whole state. I prefer Texas, this is still the America, land of opportunity, #1 in jobs, great cities, clean air, lots of land.
 
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Ronald

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I still dont know what reason why Paul would teach this subject? It's like men who come home from a long hard day of work and expect supper to be on the stove when he walks into the kitchen. Without ever realizing his wife had a long hard day too taking care of the kids, cleaning the house, organizing mail and doing the laundry to wash his filthy draws before she scratch that off her to- do list. LoL. Men will never change I guess. Expecting a woman to do everything for him but never watching a game of football with his friends etc. Paul only said women can't preach because they are women, not because they are ministers and preachers. He just said those things cause she is a woman, not because she is preaching...it seems cliche to me a woman isn't allowed to do anything but cook on a hot stove with boiling water. Well men can cook too, so why not get up and cook already if you are so man enough to yell at your woman " where the food at!?!!!!!!? Why you ain't cook no food woman!!!!!?? Whatcha been doing all day?!!!! I still think Paul was persecuting the church a bit though..ha
It's God's Word, written down by Paul. Paul wrote word for word what He was told to (that's what inspiration is). God gives the prophet His thoughts, being filled with His Spirit and so nothing is contrived by man, that is why it is inerrant. Sometimes the translations are off but not original manuscripts in Greek and Hebrew.
 
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bekkilyn

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Who is calling for women to have headship over their husbands?

The "headship philosophers" here can't seem to think of anything outside of terms of headship, hierarchy, and authority. Their worldview seems to be entirely based upon master and slave. Extremely dualistic. If someone wins, then someone else must lose. It's all either/or.

They can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that there is a both/and. That there is a win/win. That God's Kingdom is not about power struggles. That the headship doctrine is false, harmful, and abusive.
 
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Strong in Him

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It's God's Word, written down by Paul. Paul wrote word for word what He was told to

a) Seriously? You believe that Paul was told to write "I wish Judaizers would go and castrate themselves"? Galatians 5:12 Was Paul told to write that widows under the age of 60 are idle gossipers and deserve no financial assistance from the church? 1 Timothy 5:11-14. Was Paul told to write that he wished all men were unmarried as he was? 1 Corinthians 7:7
b) if he was, how do you know it wasn't advice for that church in that situation, and how does it apply to us today, if at all?
How many churches have female members who have been widowed young, maybe through war, and left with young children? My feeling is that the church would want to help them as much as possible; sisters in Christ. Yet according to Paul they are only idle gossipers, ruled by lust, and don't deserve such help.
How many false teachers have castrated themselves because Paul said they should? Why stop there, even; why not let the church do it?
How many people do you know who have started drinking because Paul told Timothy to start drinking wine, 1 Timothy 5:23 - and Paul wrote exactly what he was told to write, so therefore God wants everyone to drink. (Not.)

(that's what inspiration is)

No, that's what dictation is.
A person can be inspired to write, or say, something but still do it in their own style, with their own personalities/interests coming through - hence why Luke, a doctor and historian, included historical and medical details in his Gospel. He was also a Greek scholar and wrote classical, not Koine, Greek. Matthew wrote for Jews and includes many fulfilled OT prophesies. John was old and in exile on Patmos when he wrote his Gospel, so it is reflective, theological; almost like a sermon.

God gives the prophet His thoughts, being filled with His Spirit and so nothing is contrived by man, that is why it is inerrant.

Agreed; there are no contradictions in Scripture.
But that does not mean that all the authors were put into trances, the Spirit took them over and bypassed their words and personalities.
The words of God THROUGH the words of men. Sure, the Spirit made sure that they wrote nothing false, wrong or contradictory. But it was still humans writing; humans in different circumstances and with different moods and emotions - compare the despair of the writer of Ecclesiastes with some of Paul's hymns of praise. Or the anger of the Psalmist who feels God has abandoned him, with Paul's assurance that nothing can separate us from the love of God. Or even David's words on one occasion that he was evil from birth, Psalms 51:5, to his conviction a while later that God saw him even when he was growing in the womb, Psalms 139:13-15. These are not contractions in God's word or from God, just the differing circumstances that his servants found themselves dealing with - a.k.a. life.

Some of Paul's letters were to churches that he had not visited for a while, and/or had written to him with problems that they were facing. Each church had different circumstances. I'm sure that when his epistles started to be passed around, the church in Rome would not have have felt they had to obey advice given to the church at Ephesus, who were in a different position - and vice versa. The greetings are a clue to the church at Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi etc.
 
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Sparagmos

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If it's so great, move over there - liberals seem to hate the U.S. so much they want to change everything. Utopia cannot be achieved by any society because of sin. Wherever you travel, you will find it. We have friends in Denmark and they have visited many times, wanting to live here instead - a much better life they say ... unless you live in one of those sanctuary cities or like California - the whole state. I prefer Texas, this is still the America, land of opportunity, #1 in jobs, great cities, clean air, lots of land.

“If you think it’s better, then move there.” Kneejerk nonsensical response. Do you think Mexicans should all come to the U.S., or work to make their country better?

I love where I live and my family is here. I live in a place that’s about as close to Northern Europe as you can get in the U.S. I love my country and am working to make it better.
 
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Sparagmos

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The "headship philosophers" here can't seem to think of anything outside of terms of headship, hierarchy, and authority. Their worldview seems to be entirely based upon master and slave. Extremely dualistic. If someone wins, then someone else must lose. It's all either/or.

They can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that there is a both/and. That there is a win/win. That God's Kingdom is not about power struggles. That the headship doctrine is false, harmful, and abusive.
QFT!!
 
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timewerx

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She uses scripture not reasoning.

I looked up Dr. Bushell and it turns out, she has sterling qualifications to make deep and accurate analysis of scriptures - particularly her linguistic skills including Hebrew and Greek.
 
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Ronald

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You believe that Paul was told to write "I wish Judaizers would go and castrate themselves"? Galatians 5:12
God had a strong word for Judaizers who were trying to force Gentiles to be circumcised. vs. 4 states if they do this, they will be severed from Christ! If they lived by the Law, they have fallen from grace. Actually there are misinterpretations of that verse and better translations:
>I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! NKJV
>I would that they were cut away, that disturb you. [I would that they that distrouble you, be also cut off.] WYC
>O that even they would cut themselves off who are unsettling you! YLT
Cutting themselves off from them would support vs. 4 that states they will be severed from Christ.

Was Paul told to write that widows under the age of 60 are idle gossipers and deserve no financial assistance from the church? 1 Timothy 5:11-14.
Their passions drew them away from Christ and towards Satan. Wow, picking out all the scriptures where God's chastising of women?

Was Paul told to write that he wished all men were unmarried as he was? 1 Corinthians 7:7
Of course Paul uses his own life experiences. A eunuch can devote more time to the LORD, where as a married person's time is limited. He made the point, which priests throughout the centuries followed.

How many people do you know who have started drinking because Paul told Timothy to start drinking wine, 1 Timothy 5:23 - and Paul wrote exactly what he was told to write, so therefore God wants everyone to drink. (Not.)
Ridiculous, a little wine is good for stomach problems - but the Bible clearly warns of too much wine and not to be a drunkard.

Or even David's words on one occasion that he was evil from birth, Psalms 51:5, to his conviction a while later that God saw him even when he was growing in the womb, Psalms 139:13-15.
Right, we are born in sin, it is our nature. We have a dead spirit, void of God that needs to be filled with God and this happens when we are born again. Every man and woman since Adam is born in sin. And yes, God knits us together in the womb. That's just a statement of the miraculous process of growth that takes place from conception to birth - that's the physical body. God later transforms our dead spirit and gives it life.

Some of Paul's letters were to churches that he had not visited for a while, and/or had written to him with problems that they were facing. Each church had different circumstances. I'm sure that when his epistles started to be passed around, the church in Rome would not have have felt they had to obey advice given to the church at Ephesus, who were in a different position - and vice versa. The greetings are a clue to the church at Ephesus, Corinth, Philippi etc.
What's your point? Each individual finds scriptures that are relevant to their lives more than others, same with churches. In Revelation, letters to the seven churches were all different. Yet these were Church types that were common through the Church Age. Two were faithful and the rest need to repent. Many in these churches weren't even believers, evil, tares, close to dead - so God gave them warnings. All God's warning don't apply to everyone, you may need specific ones, I need others.
-----------------------------
Some scriptures and insights to God's Word.

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God as profitable for doctrine for reproof, for correction, for instruction, and righteousness that the man of God may be, perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” In 2 Timothy 3:16 when it says, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” or all Scripture is inspired by God, the Latin term inspiration does not properly translate the word theopneustos, “God breathed.”

Men, prophets, weren’t inspired, it was the message that was inspired, God breathed.

Psalm 33:6 “By the word of Jehovah were the heavens made and all the hosts of them by the breath of His mouth.” God breathed/spoke the universe into existence. Then God breathed into existence the bible – special revelation. Whatever the Scripture says God said.

“For the word of God is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Heb. 4:12

2 Peter 1, “...but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

Isaiah 55:11, “So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth. It shall not return unto me void, but it’ll accomplish that which I please.”

Isaiah 1:2, “Hear, O heavens, and give ear O earth, for the Lord has spoken.”

Prov. 30:5, 6 Every word of God is tested;

He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.

6 Do not add to His words

Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.


Behold I have put my words in thy mouth,” Jeremiah 1:4-.

“...I will make My words in thy mouth fire and the people wood, and it shall devour them.”Jer. 5:14

Gal. 1:11 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

2 Samuel 23:2, “The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue.”

Inspiration is God’s revelation, communicated by writers who use their owns minds and words, HOWEVER, God pre-ordained their lives and their thoughts, personalities and words so that they chose the very words that God intended. Inspiration is not just extended to thoughts; it’s extended to the very words.

God formed the personality, his heredity, his environment, his life as HE willed, as a piece of clay is formed into a pot for a specific use. Being filled with the Holy Spirit, God brings thoughts to your remembrance; they flow out of you as if God is whispering in your ear. The man’s whole life was so fashioned by God that they were God’s words.

The word of God is infallible, inerrant, complete. You would think that fallible man would certainly add something to contradict and err in many ways, but the Word is perfect.
 
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Should wives also submit to their Husbands??

That's another million dollar question! The answer to this one goes back to the book of Genesis!

The answer is NO, not anymore....Jesus came to take away our burden which originated from Genesis, due to Man's sin.
But Ephesians 5 was written after Jesus. So I don't understand how it no longer applies.
 
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Ronald

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“If you think it’s better, then move there.” Kneejerk nonsensical response. Do you think Mexicans should all come to the U.S., or work to make their country better?

I love where I live and my family is here. I live in a place that’s about as close to Northern Europe as you can get in the U.S. I love my country and am working to make it better.
Just fed up with the liberals like Bernie Sanders, a socialist, who couldn't stop mentioning Denmark. People don't like it here, move. I love my country too and would rather we remove benefits - that would easily stop illegal immigration (500,000 in the past year). When I said, move there, I did mean legally.
 
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Phil W

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Except that by and large, women seeking to be allowed to preach etc. aren't seeking "to have headship over" anyone. We repudiate that model of leadership altogether.
That model of leadership was founded by God.
God, Christ, man, woman.
It is written..."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
That is what you are trying to repudiate.
 
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Paidiske

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That model of leadership was founded by God.
God, Christ, man, woman.
It is written..."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
That is what you are trying to repudiate.

What you're talking about there, though, is not about leadership structure in the Church. The Church has only one head, Christ; and we who are priests or pastors or ministers don't take Christ's place as head of the Church but have particular roles and responsibilities alongside our brothers and sisters.
 
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Phil W

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That's an assumption on your part.

Not at all. But it must be read critically and in context, and with a hermeneutic which takes consistent account of other parts of Scripture.
How does your POV stand up to..."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
 
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Phil W

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One of the principles that we aspire to is not to expound one part of scripture in a way that is repugnant to another part of scripture. There is in scripture (and I am not about to get into a verse sling contest) more than enough that argues for equality or complementarity or an egalitarian view of people of diverse gender, including examples of women taking a role in leadership and indeed to first proclamation of the resurrection. The issue ultimately comes down to the nature of the headship you are asserting, and indeed your understanding of the ministry of the Church. Clearly we have a different view on these things, however resolution is unlikely while you assert intellectual crudeties such as the words 'the church has power over God' which is clearly and self evidently not a proposition being asserted by anyone here.
I'ld like to remind you of this scripture..."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
There is an order to things that should not be trifled with, and woman leadership is one of them.
I'll condone women teaching men when God condones men's headship over Christ.
 
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Philip_B

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That model of leadership was founded by God.
God, Christ, man, woman. It is written..."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
That is what you are trying to repudiate.


1 Corinthians 11:1-16
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone is disposed to be contentious—we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.​

Let's start by looking at the passage, rather than abusing a sing verse. And yes it is an awkward passage. At one level we see Paul anxious to preserve the traditions (not sure if this is the traditions of the Jews, or the traditions of the community on Corinth - whichever this is in some sense about being within the context of the community in which we operate). The reflection on the nature and purpose of the creation of women is built inside a hebrew/greek cultural tradition, and whilst it might sit easily in a socio dynamic which argues for a paternalism that is no longer part of our cultural context. Do any on us think that God is bothered by men with long hair and women with short hair, I think not because God judges the heart. The context of the Pauline passage is really summed up at the end when we see it is about working within the cultural context, seeking not to let these matters get in the way of the gospel being heard.

There will be times when it is essential for christians to be counter-cultural, and certainly we are not to simply accept everything without question, yet I am also convinced that we are called to pick and choose those battle grounds, and in the cultural context in which we operate in the western world that cultural tradition calls us to value women and men equally, and not to engage in some thinly guised male chauvinism. Men are not better than women, and neither are women better than men, but equals in standing, albeit at one level clearly different in outlook and approach.

In a sense in the west we have rediscovered something of the great and deep truth of Genesis 1.

Genesis 1:26-31
Then God said, ‘Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.’

So God created humankind in his image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.​

God blessed them, and God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.’ God said, ‘See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.’ And it was so. God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.​
 
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Phil W

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No, it is written ONCE in ONE verse - that doesn't make it fact or applicable to everyone.
Really?
How many other "single exhortations" do you include in that blanket statement?
How about..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

If it DID, then God would not have chosen Deborah to be judge over all of Israel.
Once in One chapter?
Isn't that against your doctrine?
God selected a woman to be His a judge, but it was God's Spirit in the judge doing the judgements.

He would not have chosen women to be prophetesses and give his word to men - e.g Deborah, Huldah.
I have no problem with women being selected by God to relay His words to "men".
Not all prophesy is of a teaching nature. (1 Cor 14:3)

Jesus would not have chosen to appear to Mary Magdalene first of all after the resurrection; he would have gone to the men. Furthermore, he would have taught that women could not speak his word, teach or be his witnesses because Eve sinned before Adam did, and therefore they are not reliable.
He didn't teach anything of the sort.
You are confusing "reporting the news" with "teaching men".
Did Paul have the same Spirit as Jesus?
Yes.
You are stating that the Spirit spoke different/contrasting messages from two different men.
I don't buy that.
Where did Jesus say that women can be in leadership roles?

No.
Many are preaching and pastoring churches because they testify that God has called them to do this. After prayer, guiding, talking with male clergy and so on, they all believe that God - who gives ALL authority - is calling them to do this.
You must have at least one NT scripture stating that women can lead the body of Christ in order to make such a statement.
"They" say they are called, in spite of what scripture says?
Not by my God.
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
Your POV subverts this scripture.


Maybe you'd better tell God that, so he won't call women to lead.
Like I said, Deborah was judge over all Israel.
Judges aren't leaders, they are judges.

As does suppressing people and not allowing them to do what God has called them to do.
The gifts, including Pastor, Ephesians 4:11, are given for building up the body, Ephesians 4:12.
I'll stick with what is written...Including..."This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Tim 3:1-5)
 
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Phil W

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Hey look, i believe when God's people become empowered preist and preistesses of him, it isn't them working alone, it's the power of God, the holy spirit working through these people. They are no longer of themselves.They have become a temple, a temple built by God, the house in which he dwells in now. They are one with the holy spirit which makes them one with the word of God. Tell me I am wrong here, please do. It ain't the woman preaching, it's God within preaching through her. There is neither male or female for the bible says we are all one in our precious Lord Jesus Christ. And because we are one in all and because we are a special people, a chosen royal preisthood, I believe God can come in any form he pleases, may it be a small child, a man or a woman, when God is known Almighty and his ways are established in a way no one can completely understand him in a way no one can fathom his truths, I truly think God can do the impossible cause Jesus said in the Bible with man nothing is possible but with God, our almighty everlasting father, nothing is impossible.We only need see and believe cause when we believe something we are seeing it and I see it and the reason I see it is because with God and in God I can believe all things. I really don't understand the point Paul was making there, I guess he was just teaching all things without limit which only the spirit brings and while I really believe Paul was a true apostle of Jesus and the holy spirit was upon him, I also believe in a part of that teaching he was still persecuting the church in some way. lol and I don't think nothing bad of him, why would I? He was a apostle of Jesus and welcomed in God's family thereafter. I'm just saying when I read some of his stuff, he did sound quite a bit boastful. that's all. Oh and btw, i believe wives can take care of thier husbands just as the husband has that kind of authority over her to take care of her also. It's not a one way street but they are suppose to be in the same direction. What does any of this mean? Does it really matter? We are in a new age now anyway...so
Women who usurp ministry ARE "of themselves".
I see by your comments about Paul that you are ready to tear down some more of his words.
Doesn't that disposition bother you at all?
 
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