The skills gap.

OldWiseGuy · May 17, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
You have that entirely backwards.

"Only when women are in a male-dominated STEM field are they more responsive than men to the negative feedback of low grades"

What that means is that, outside of men-dominated STEM fields, men and women respond to low grades equally. If grades were the operative factor, men and women would drop out at equivalent rates and the more-equitable balance would remain. Rather, the operative factor is "men-dominated STEM fields" that make women more responsive to poor grades.

But poor grades is the 'trip wire'. What happens to women in STEM that excel?

iluvatar5150 · May 17, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
But poor grades is the 'trip wire'. What happens to women in STEM that excel?

The same thing that happens to women in other fields.

OldWiseGuy · May 17, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
The same thing that happens to women in other fields.

In STEM math is the stumbling stone.

Innate versus learned skill
"Some studies propose the explanation that STEM fields (and especially fields like physics, math and philosophy) are considered by both teachers and students to require more innate talent than skills that can be learned.[125] Combined with a tendency to view women as having less of the required innate abilities, researchers propose this can result in assessing women as less qualified for STEM positions. In a study done by Ellis, Fosdick and Rasmussen, it was concluded that without strong skills in calculus, women cannot perform as well as their male counterparts in any field of STEM, which leads to the fewer women pursuing a career in these fields.[110] A high percentage of women that do pursue a career in STEM do not continue on this pathway after taking Calculus I, which was found to be a class that weeds out students from the STEM pathway."

Women in STEM fields - Wikipedia

Kalevalatar · May 17, 2019

Here in Finland, girls outperform boys in education, including STEM subjects.
So, is that down to the fact that
1) Finland is the forerunner in gender equality; consequently Finnish girls have positive role models of women who can and do
2) Finnish women have an extra gene that makes them smarter than global ladies for whom math, apparently, is too hard
3) Finnish men lack that extra gene that makes global men better at math than woman?

iluvatar5150 · May 17, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
In STEM math is the stumbling stone.

Innate versus learned skill
"Some studies propose the explanation that STEM fields (and especially fields like physics, math and philosophy) are considered by both teachers and students to require more innate talent than skills that can be learned.[125] Combined with a tendency to view women as having less of the required innate abilities, researchers propose this can result in assessing women as less qualified for STEM positions. In a study done by Ellis, Fosdick and Rasmussen, it was concluded that without strong skills in calculus, women cannot perform as well as their male counterparts in any field of STEM, which leads to the fewer women pursuing a career in these fields.[110] A high percentage of women that do pursue a career in STEM do not continue on this pathway after taking Calculus I, which was found to be a class that weeds out students from the STEM pathway."

Women in STEM fields - Wikipedia

That still only focuses on STEM. If you want to find out if math is the problem and not STEM dude bro's, you have to look at how women handle calculus as part of all programs.

What happens when women in a biology program take Calculus? Are they more likely to drop out then men? If not, then the problem isn't math.

KCfromNC · May 18, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Poor grades is the reason they drop out, likely in math. Competition with men isn't a factor when their grades are good.

I assume some must be satisfied with this sort of simplistic analysis. Luckily there's also actual research being done to find ways to improve this rather than just assuming it is because girls are bad at science and stuff.

OldWiseGuy · May 18, 2019

KCfromNC said:
I assume some must be satisfied with this sort of simplistic analysis. Luckily there's also actual research being done to find ways to improve this rather than just assuming it is because girls are bad at science and stuff.

Only 7 percent more women drop out of STEM than men. That's pretty close. One researcher thinks that boys are better prepared for the rigor of higher math while yet in high school than are girls.

OldWiseGuy · May 18, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
That still only focuses on STEM. If you want to find out if math is the problem and not STEM dude bro's, you have to look at how women handle calculus as part of all programs.

What happens when women in a biology program take Calculus? Are they more likely to drop out then men? If not, then the problem isn't math.

Perhaps if men and women learned in separate classes the problem would be solved. Colleges could offer 'women only' calculus classes, taught by women professors, as an incentive to enter the STEM field.

In fact I believe co-ed classes are a distraction for both men and women.

Or the women could be tutored to help them along.

This is not a big problem considering my simple solutions.

Pommer · May 18, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Perhaps if men and women learned in separate classes the problem would be solved. Colleges could offer 'women only' calculus classes, taught by women professors, as an incentive to enter the STEM field.

In fact I believe co-ed classes are a distraction for both men and women.

Or the women could be tutored to help them along.

This is not a big problem considering my simple solutions.

“Separate but equal” doesn’t work, legally, nor in practice.

OldWiseGuy · May 18, 2019

Pommer said:
“Separate but equal” doesn’t work, legally, nor in practice.

But the only way to "equalize" calculus grades would be to separate the women from the evil (read not very helpful) men. They can then rejoin the men in other STEM classes.

Why dismiss creative solutions out of hand. Reminds me of doctors who insist that wearing masks and gloves in schools by students during the cold and flu season won't reduce sickness, meanwhile donning the same daily in their own germ ridden workplace.

Again we ask, "Is there intelligent life...on earth?" :swoon:

KCfromNC · May 19, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
But the only way to "equalize" calculus grades would be to separate the women from the evil (read not very helpful) men.

Citation needed.

OldWiseGuy · May 19, 2019

KCfromNC said:
Citation needed.

Google the topic. There is general agreement that the presence of unhelpful, highly competitive men is the problem for women in science classes. If men were more accepting and helpful women would do better. And because men aren't likely to change their attitudes towards women in this regard the best option for them is separate classes.

That said Calculus 1 is the hill that many men and women STEM students die on.

iluvatar5150 · May 19, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Google the topic. There is general agreement that the presence of unhelpful, highly competitive men is the problem for women in science classes. If men were more accepting and helpful women would do better. And because men aren't likely to change their attitudes towards women in this regard the best option for them is separate classes.

That said Calculus 1 is the hill that many men and women STEM students die on.

I suppose I should find it reassuring that you have low opinions of both genders.

iluvatar5150 · May 19, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
In STEM math is the stumbling stone.

Innate versus learned skill
"Some studies propose the explanation that STEM fields (and especially fields like physics, math and philosophy) are considered by both teachers and students to require more innate talent than skills that can be learned.[125]

I missed this before and will have to go digging for citations, but IIRC, it's these fields that are perceived to require innate skills that tend to be the most sexist and have the biggest gender gaps. Music is/was a big one and when orchestras switched to blind + barefoot auditions, recruitment of women went way up.

variant · May 19, 2019

Ana the Ist said:
So the basic premise is that as we continue to make things more convenient and less common skills are needed....

A smaller number of us are needed for a very limited or unique skillset to maintain the status quo?

Yes, the problem of the future is not needing most people.

Hopefully we can build an AI smart enough to handle the social implications of having AI.

KCfromNC · May 20, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
Google the topic.

If you can't provide any support for your assertions, that doesn't mean it becomes my job.

OldWiseGuy · May 20, 2019

iluvatar5150 said:
I suppose I should find it reassuring that you have low opinions of both genders.

The nature of people isn't likely to change anytime soon.

OldWiseGuy · May 20, 2019

KCfromNC said:
If you can't provide any support for your assertions, that doesn't mean it becomes my job.

I'm just trying to be helpful.
If you do the research you can choose from a variety of sources.

KCfromNC · May 21, 2019

OldWiseGuy said:
I'm just trying to be helpful.
If you do the research you can choose from a variety of sources.

Yes, thanks for the pointer to a bunch of sources which demonstrate your assertions were wrong.

OldWiseGuy · May 21, 2019

KCfromNC said:
Yes, thanks for the pointer to a bunch of sources which demonstrate your assertions were wrong.

Those sources aren't interested in solutions, only beating us over the head with the problem. Note that none suggested separate classes for women, only yours truly.

The skills gap.

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