Convince me of Annihilationism

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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism Annihilationism - Wikipedia. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.

In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies as per Psalms 139:22. Though I believe it is in accordance with Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:35 that we pray for them anyway. May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.
 
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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism Annihilationism - Wikipedia. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.

In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies as per Psalms 139:22. Though I believe it is in accordance with Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:35 that we pray for them anyway. May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.

Sorry, no can do :(

Revelation 14:9-11 KJVS
[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
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frogoon234

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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism Annihilationism - Wikipedia. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.

In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies as per Psalms 139:22. Though I believe it is in accordance with Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:35 that we pray for them anyway. May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.

I believe (my understanding of scripture) that the Bible the way it is typically interpreted that a person in hell suffers in hell. 1 Corinthians 15 says the last enemy he destroys is death. Ezekiel chapter 18 says he takes no pleasure when any one perishes.

I think an eternity of suffering is a long time to suffer but what do i know as a sinner right?

On the other hand if Jesus wanted to find a way to end a person's time suffering in hell he could use his lawyer/counseler skills to figure out a way.

If someone proved annihilationism to me it wouldn't hurt my feelings.
 
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devin553344

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The bible appears to state two different ideas regarding annihilation-ism. First it speak of the second death and second it says torment is eternal. So I'm really confused on the issue. Maybe I'll just have to wait to find out? And that's OK with me :)
 
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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism Annihilationism - Wikipedia. ....

What do you think about this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. …
Matt. 10:28
 
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hedrick

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References to the smoke of their destruction going up forever, like many descriptions of punishment, are based on OT images. E.g. Is 66:44. The smoke that rises forever is from dead bodies. The bodies are already dead. There's also reason to think the "eternal fire" is hyperbole. E.g. Jude 7. Sodom and Gomorrah aren't still burning. "Forever" in the OT often isn't literal. E.g. 1 Sam 1:22.

I think it's a mistake to derive doctrine by reading visions from the Rev too literally. Rev 22:15 refers to evil people "outside." Rev 21:8 puts them in the lake, which is the second death. I doubt that "outside" is intended to suggest that there are evil people wandering around outside the city. Rather the point is that evil is excluded. Presumably they've experienced the second death, whatever that is.

From Beale, G. K.:
"That these reprobate are “outside” the “city” indicates that they will have no place in the new creation, since the new creation and the city are probably synonymous concepts. This “outside” location is “the lake of fire,” since essentially the godless people listed in 21:8 are consigned to “the lake of fire.” The punishment of being cast outside the garden, which began in Gen. 3:23–24, continues for the reprobate into eternity, on an escalated scale."

Beale's reference to Gen 3 is an interesting one. Why the change from bad guys being in the lake of fire in Rev 21 to simply "outside" in Rev 22? In the Rev God makes everything new. This is a return to Eden. Some of the descriptions of the city suggest that. Of course sinners have been ejected, as they were from Eden.
 
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hedrick

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Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, and Matthew 25:46 together make a pretty strong case for eternal torments.
It's hard to be sure just what Jesus meant. During the 1st Cent it was common (though not the only view) for Jews to think that there was punishment that eventually ended, for most, with a few people being treated more seriously. Mat 13 is not necessarily permanent. Mat 25 is, but has the general problem of being sure what "eternal punishment" is. E.g. it could be the second death, as in the Rev. My feeling is that based on usage in the OT, "eternal punishment" isn't necessarily punishment that goes on forever. Again, I point to Is 66:44.
 
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What do you think about this:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. …

I think this verse could be used by Annihilationists personally.
 
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I think it's a mistake to derive doctrine by reading visions from the Rev too literally. Rev 22:15 refers to evil people "outside." Rev 21:8 puts them in the lake, which is the second death. I doubt that "outside" is intended to suggest that there are evil people wandering around outside the city. Rather the point is that evil is excluded. Presumably they've experienced the second death, whatever that is.

Fair enough
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The bible appears to state two different ideas regarding annihilation-ism. First it speak of the second death and second it says torment is eternal. So I'm really confused on the issue. Maybe I'll just have to wait to find out? And that's OK with me :)
Perhaps good.

For your own education, learning, seeking what is the truth,

it could pay to look up every instance of < forever > <eternal> <everlasting> in the Bible (whichever Bible you use).

You will likely find that < forever > <eternal> <everlasting> does not always have

the same meaning in Scripture as in English.

Hope this helps.
 
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ewq1938

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Matthew 13:41-42

Says nothing of eternal torment.

, Matthew 13:49-50

Says nothing of eternal torment.

, and Matthew 25:46 together make a pretty strong case for eternal torments.

That last one speaks of eternal punishment not eternal torment. The fate of the unsaved is the second death, and that punishment is eternal...to be dead eternally.

So, none of these passages speak of anyone being tormented alive for eternity.
 
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(speaking as a man) I'm feeling cognitively dissonant.

I want to believe in Annihilationism Annihilationism - Wikipedia. I want to believe scriptures such as Psalms 37:10 Psalms 37:20 Psalms 37:36 refer to the eternal state of sinful man rather than speaking only about life here on earth.

In Genesis 4:13 Cain cries out that his punishment is more than he can bear. The Lord alleviates his punishment by warding off those who would seek his life.

Revelation 22:15 occurs after creation of the New Heavens and Earth, and it states "but outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie." Why mention those outside the Kingdom in such a way as though they were still practicing these sinful habits after Death and Hell have been cast into the Lake of Fire?

As a child of God, those that hold contempt in their hearts toward my Lord Jesus Christ are my enemies as per Psalms 139:22. Though I believe it is in accordance with Matthew 5:44 and Luke 6:35 that we pray for them anyway. May God be merciful even to those wicked when they come before Him in judgement.


I've studied the subject for years. I've looked at the passages. Where do you want to start?
 
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I've studied the subject for years. I've looked at the passages. Where do you want to start?

Just give me all the verses you have compiled that you believe can be interpreted as Annihilationism.
 
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Butch5

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Just give me all the verses you have compiled that you believe can be interpreted as Annihilationism.

All the pertinent passages can be understood from an Annihilation point of view. It's the ETC doctrine that has trouble with many passages. There two main issues that lead to the ETC doctrine. One is that most hold to dualism. The Bible doesn't teach dualism, that came into Christianity from Greek mythology. The other is a mistranslation of the word aion. In many lexicons it's defined as meaning eternal. However, it cannot mean eternal because it's used of finite periods of time.

On dualism, many believe that man can live on after death as some sort of disembodied conscious being. However, the Bible doesn't teach this. Moses recorded the creation of man in Genesis 2. He said that God created man from the dust of the earth and that He breathed into the man His breath or spirit of life, and the man became a living soul. We see from this that a soul consists of two parts, the man, which Scripture says returns to dust and the breath or spirit of life from God. We're also told that this breath or spirit of life from God returns to God when the man dies. So, what we find is that when a man dies there is nothing left to live on as some sort of disembodied consciousness. Understanding what a man is, is the beginning of the study this subject.

There are a lot passages that show that when man is dead he's dead. But you need more than just a handful of passages. That just starts the arguing back and forth. What we need is a systematic study throughout the Scriptures concerning the doctrine.

Since you are considering the doctrine you obviously have looked at some of the pertinent passages. What is it that causes you to consider something else?
 
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justbyfaith

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The nature of the everlasting punishment is that there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The duration of it is that it will be everlasting.

If you do not isolate the verses but take them together, you would see that all three of them are speaking of the same thing.

To hold that everlasting wailing and gnashing of teeth is not what the afterlife is all about for the sinner who rejects Christ's forgiveness, to me, frankly, is wishful thinking. You can try to manipulate the scriptures so that they don't say what they actually say; but when you do this it says something about you: it means that you believe that you yourself are going to enter into a Christ-less eternity, and it somehow comforts you to think that the punishment is not as severe as what the scripture actually teaches it will be.

But I would say to you, why not simply receive Christ as your Lord and Saviour, instead of twisting the scriptures so that you can feel a little bit better about where you are going?
 
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hedrick

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But I would say to you, why not simply receive Christ as your Lord and Saviour, instead of twisting the scriptures so that you can feel a little bit better about where you are going?
These discussions are typically with people who are followers of Jesus. They're troubled that their Christian beliefs don't seem consistent with the picture Jesus gives us of God.
 
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.... The other is a mistranslation of the word aion. In many lexicons it's defined as meaning eternal. However, it cannot mean eternal because it's used of finite periods of time...
Here is the big hole in your argument. If αἰώνιος/aionios does not mean eternal and αἰών/aion does not mean eternity, which Greek word do you think does?
After having seen this fallacious argument over and over and over I decided to verify it for myself. Since those who make this argument will not accept any Greek authority which proves them wrong, e.g. Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich[BDAG] one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available, I reviewed every occurrence of each word in the NT.
In twenty one [21] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.

List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Petr, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[22]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.


 
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