Prayerful meditation and how to do it

Maria Billingsley

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I am not Catholic but I am a Christian and I never meditate during prayer only on the Word of God. Repetitive meditation is something the Lord warned against. We are called to walk in the Holy Spirit 24/7.
Blessings
 
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AvilaSurfer

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I am not Catholic but I am a Christian and I never meditate during prayer only on the Word of God. Repetitive meditation is something the Lord warned against. We are called to walk in the Holy Spirit 24/7.
Blessings
He warned against vain repetition. There’s a difference.
 
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archer75

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I understand however repetitive anything is in vain. Best to speak to God in truth and conviction.
If anything repeated was in vain, then we wouldn't ever pray about anything more than once, but we all do.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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If anything repeated was in vain, then we wouldn't ever pray about anything more than once, but we all do.
Not true.
The Op is about meditation not supplication. There is a distinct difference. Meditation is a word or group of words repeated over and over again in one sitting expecting an outcome. It is like saying the same thing over and over again in a conversation. It is in vain. It looses its meaning and it is mindless.
Supplication on the other hand is a conversation with our Lord. We may repeat a supplication daily, like "Lord keep my family safe" or "Lord guild me in your wisdom today", these are meaningful heartfelt prayers. If any meditation takes place it should be on the Word of God. That means "think about it" not repeat it over and over.
Blessings

PS: I started this comment by divulging that I am not Catholic so we will never see it the same
 
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archer75

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The Op is about meditation not supplication. There is a distinct difference. Meditation is a word or group of words repeated over and over again in one sitting expecting an outcome. It is like saying the same thing over and over again in a conversation. It is in vain. It looses its meaning and it is mindless.
Supplication on the other hand is a conversation with our Lord. We may repeat a supplication daily, like "Lord keep my family safe" or "Lord guild me in your wisdom today", these are meaningful heartfelt prayers. If any meditation takes place it should be on the Word of God. That means "think about it" not repeat it over and over.
Blessings

PS: I started this comment by divulging that I am not Catholic so we will never see it the same
I'm not RC either, but that is not how I understand meditation. However, I have not seen the video so if that is what is referenced then I need to check it out.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I'm not RC either, but that is not how I understand meditation. However, I have not seen the video so if that is what is referenced then I need to check it out.

med·i·tate
/ˈmedəˌtāt/
think deeply or carefully about (something).

Meditation is an Eastern religious practice like Hinduism and such. Should not be in a Christians life. I know, it is contrary to the video. It is in error in the eyes of God.
 
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archer75

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med·i·tate
/ˈmedəˌtāt/
think deeply or carefully about (something).
This is not what you described in post 7.

Sorry to go back and forth not having seen the video. I will check it out and check back.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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This is not what you described in post 7.

Sorry to go back and forth not having seen the video. I will check it out and check back.
If you read scripture you will see that to meditate on the word of God is what we should do. Meditate is the definition stated in post 9. There is another kind of meditate which is "meditation" this is repetitive words repeated in vain.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Before criticizing, it's best to know what is being discussed.

I agree that meditation as taught by the eastern non-Christian religions is dangerous. It is an emptying of the mind and a sort of invitation to outward influence.

That is not the only meaning of meditation though.

I didn't watch the entire video, but within the first five minutes, "meditation" was defined for their purposes as "mental prayer" ... i.e. without spoken aloud words. I suspect almost all Christians do this quite often.

I don't defend the video wholesale, because there are foundational differences in how Catholics and Orthodox approach spirituality. But even in the (to our eyes) over-analysis that Catholics tend to perform on the mystical, and over-legalistic tendencies, there can be interesting things to compare and consider. Sometimes we do simply look at the same thing from a different point of view, and if a person is inclined, they can learn that way.

But anyway - meditation can have different meanings. And repetition in prayer is not a bad thing, but should not be done mindlessly, or it is essentially wasting time and effort. All prayer should be mindful.

The purpose of TT is not debate though. We can certainly share ideas and discuss, and may disagree. But it is important to know just what we are talking about, or the dialogue becomes meaningless.

Peace to all.
 
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~Anastasia~

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From an Orthodox point of view, there are different types of meditation.

Most often it might refer to thinking about God Himself - such as how loving He is and the ways He shows love or how His love for us is expressed through creation.

It can also be meditation on the Scriptures.

It can refer to the singing/chanting of Psalms for example, done in a worshipful way that isn't attempting to analyze the words but to open our hearts to God and let His word be planted within us.

It may also be a "prayer of silence" which is essentially a listening sort of prayer, where we don't fill our minds with our own chattering words but merely wait in the presence of God, mindful only of Him (though this is not something to be undertaken by the inexperienced).

But it is never the Eastern non-Christian "stilling of the mind" and general openness. Though the practice of learning to control and be mindful of ones thoughts continually is another beneficial discipline. We just don't achieve it in the same way or with anything like the same goals.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Before criticizing, it's best to know what is being discussed.

I agree that meditation as taught by the eastern non-Christian religions is dangerous. It is an emptying of the mind and a sort of invitation to outward influence.

That is not the only meaning of meditation though.

I didn't watch the entire video, but within the first five minutes, "meditation" was defined for their purposes as "mental prayer" ... i.e. without spoken aloud words. I suspect almost all Christians do this quite often.

I don't defend the video wholesale, because there are foundational differences in how Catholics and Orthodox approach spirituality. But even in the (to our eyes) over-analysis that Catholics tend to perform on the mystical, and over-legalistic tendencies, there can be interesting things to compare and consider. Sometimes we do simply look at the same thing from a different point of view, and if a person is inclined, they can learn that way.

But anyway - meditation can have different meanings. And repetition in prayer is not a bad thing, but should not be done mindlessly, or it is essentially wasting time and effort. All prayer should be mindful.

The purpose of TT is not debate though. We can certainly share ideas and discuss, and may disagree. But it is important to know just what we are talking about, or the dialogue becomes meaningless.

Peace to all.
My apologies for making this a debate, I was not aware that TT does not allow it. But I will point out one thing about the video, it does speak of using repetition. For example St Theresa chose "our Father" and meditated on just those two words for two hours. This is exactly what is taught in Eastern meditation, which by the way, I practiced for years in the 80"s. Like a Berean, I must point out error even if it crosses denominational lines, especially on this subject.
Blessings
 
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AvilaSurfer

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The Op is about meditation not supplication. There is a distinct difference. Meditation is a word or group of words repeated over and over again in one sitting expecting an outcome. It is like saying the same thing over and over again in a conversation. It is in vain. It looses its meaning and it is mindless.
Supplication on the other hand is a conversation with our Lord. We may repeat a supplication daily, like "Lord keep my family safe" or "Lord guild me in your wisdom today", these are meaningful heartfelt prayers. If any meditation takes place it should be on the Word of God. That means "think about it" not repeat it over and over.
Blessings

PS: I started this comment by divulging that I am not Catholic so we will never see it the same
Well, if we’re just gonna play games with word definitions, this would be a pretty boring, pointless conversation, so I’ll step out.
 
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My apologies for making this a debate, I was not aware that TT does not allow it. But I will point out one thing about the video, it does speak of using repetition. For example St Theresa chose "our Father" and meditated on just those two words for two hours. This is exactly what is taught in Eastern meditation, which by the way, I practiced for years in the 80"s. Like a Berean, I must point out error even if it crosses denominational lines, especially on this subject.
Blessings
Thank you for your contribution. :) And I agree the concern can be valid especially in some particular points. But maybe understanding will help ...

I was (unfortunately) taught Eastern practices too many years ago. In what I was taught, there was a focus word (or sound) that was used repetitively, but the purpose of the repetition in that case was to desensitize the mind to the input (that's one reason why it's usually a sound without the meaning of any actual word) and to STOP any kind of mental focus on meaning.

By contrast, if a Christian practices a sort of mindfulness prayer like you mention, the whole point should be to focus on the meaning of the words.

Now, I will comment on the typical Orthodox practice. We have such a prayer commonly used called the Jesus Prayer. It is (in the common form) "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner".

Monastics sometimes use a shorter form, but ... monks are experienced in praying many hours a day and have continual spiritual oversight.

A few points. The prayer is somewhat longer, and one is meant to focus deeply on everything it says when one is praying. So there is much depth and richness to consider in those few words, and the mind is led to do the opposite of repeating "ooohhhmmmm" or some such.

Also, this is generally done under spiritual guidance. Christian elders through the ages have warned of the dangers of undertaking it improperly. So we KNOW this. And typically, permission will be given only for about 33 repetitions (one for each year of Jesus' life) to a beginner. Depending on how slowly one says the prayer, this usually averages around 3-5 minutes of repetition.

So no, a new person would NEVER be told to focus on just two words for two hours in our tradition. But you are also talking about one person's experience ... if someone has been practicing for years and depending on their own level of progress ... well, it's essentially pointless (and maybe dangerous) to compare people or for one person to take up another's practice without their background.

By the way, this has been a practice in Christianity since the very early times. It is not something tossed about lightly because it isn't something for a person to take up on a whim and direct themselves. If mixed with pride it can be especially dangerous. But it is the means that we know of to reach St. Paul's exhortation to "pray unceasingly" ... which he really meant "unceasingly". With practice (and by the grace of God), the heart prays continually on its own (even during sleep). But that requires a deep devotion and willingness to completely surrender to God, as no compromise with the world will be possible at the same time.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Thank you for your contribution. :) And I agree the concern can be valid especially in some particular points. But maybe understanding will help ...

I was (unfortunately) taught Eastern practices too many years ago. In what I was taught, there was a focus word (or sound) that was used repetitively, but the purpose of the repetition in that case was to desensitize the mind to the input (that's one reason why it's usually a sound without the meaning of any actual word) and to STOP any kind of mental focus on meaning.

By contrast, if a Christian practices a sort of mindfulness prayer like you mention, the whole point should be to focus on the meaning of the words.

Now, I will comment on the typical Orthodox practice. We have such a prayer commonly used called the Jesus Prayer. It is (in the common form) "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner".

Monastics sometimes use a shorter form, but ... monks are experienced in praying many hours a day and have continual spiritual oversight.

A few points. The prayer is somewhat longer, and one is meant to focus deeply on everything it says when one is praying. So there is much depth and richness to consider in those few words, and the mind is led to do the opposite of repeating "ooohhhmmmm" or some such.

Also, this is generally done under spiritual guidance. Christian elders through the ages have warned of the dangers of undertaking it improperly. So we KNOW this. And typically, permission will be given only for about 33 repetitions (one for each year of Jesus' life) to a beginner. Depending on how slowly one says the prayer, this usually averages around 3-5 minutes of repetition.

So no, a new person would NEVER be told to focus on just two words for two hours in our tradition. But you are also talking about one person's experience ... if someone has been practicing for years and depending on their own level of progress ... well, it's essentially pointless (and maybe dangerous) to compare people or for one person to take up another's practice without their background.

By the way, this has been a practice in Christianity since the very early times. It is not something tossed about lightly because it isn't something for a person to take up on a whim and direct themselves. If mixed with pride it can be especially dangerous. But it is the means that we know of to reach St. Paul's exhortation to "pray unceasingly" ... which he really meant "unceasingly". With practice (and by the grace of God), the heart prays continually on its own (even during sleep). But that requires a deep devotion and willingness to completely surrender to God, as no compromise with the world will be possible at the same time.
I must respectfully disagree. We have a completely different approach on the scriptural meaning of "meditate". I simply see it as thinking day and night about the Lord and His Word basically what is called "walking in the Holy Spirit".
On another quick note, St Theresa while immersing herself in repetitive meditation caused her to have ecstatic moments as well as levitation. These are also signs of Easter mysticism as I experienced this myself. Scares me.
 
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Athanasias

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I must respectfully disagree. We have a completely different approach on the scriptural meaning of "meditate". I simply see it as thinking day and night about the Lord and His Word basically what is called "walking in the Holy Spirit".
On another quick note, St Theresa while immersing herself in repetitive meditation caused her to have ecstatic moments as well as levitation. These are also signs of Easter mysticism as I experienced this myself. Scares me.
There are positive and negative gifts. Christian of deep faith in Christ and Saints and Mystics for 2000 years have experienced ecstasies, levitations, and other gifts of God. Satan also mocks these gifts and gives his own ecstacies, levitations to individuals and they come out in Eastern pagan practices and meditations(ask any former satanist or new ager). One is of God the other of the demon. Its is very hard to distinguish sometimes by looking. Remember they said Jesus cast out satan by satan. They misunderstood his power. If they come from God there is peace in the soul and an increase of holiness. If they come from the devil there is not peace. The devil can make a person feel good and excited but the one thing he cannot give is peace.

The Priest that is talking about this is a Exorcist so he has experience with the demons and with the power of God and the saints. He is also a Catholic scholar. One of the most powerful meditations and prayers for a Christian is the rosary(which is a mediation on the mysteries of the life of Jesus and Mary).
 
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I must respectfully disagree. We have a completely different approach on the scriptural meaning of "meditate". I simply see it as thinking day and night about the Lord and His Word basically what is called "walking in the Holy Spirit".
On another quick note, St Theresa while immersing herself in repetitive meditation caused her to have ecstatic moments as well as levitation. These are also signs of Easter mysticism as I experienced this myself. Scares me.

Well if we are only disagreeing (on the first point) on word definitions, that's certainly fine. It just has potentially broader meanings for us, so in order to discuss we just have to be sure of what we mean. :)

Actually since you said "thinking about the Lord and His word" ... that actually includes our (Orthodox) two primary definitions of meditation, so we aren't actually disagreeing there. And it's a wonderful practice. Very wonderful. :)

We too (as Orthodox) are greatly concerned about "ecstatic states" within Catholic spirituality. It's an area where we diverge from them.

And it interestingly ties back to Pentecostal practices, which maybe I shouldn't get into here, but it involves our understanding of the current practice of modern "speaking in tongues" and also goes back to the same practice in non-Christians in history who experienced ecstatic states. It's surprising how different aspects can be related. Or maybe not since we are all humans. Since I did mention it, I should at least say that in our estimation, there can be both positive effects (allowing the heart to open to prayer) as well as negative effects (related to the ecstatic state) within Pentecostal practices, as otherwise I might seem to be fully endorsing or fully condemning, and I don't want to do either.

Thank you for the discussion. To be honest, I'm always encouraged by the things various ones of us agree on, and I do understand the concerns you've mentioned. They can't be ignored. It's just that within a wider experience and context, we recognize them too.

God be with you.
 
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There are positive and negative gifts. Christian of deep faith in Christ and Saints and Mystics for 2000 years have experienced ecstasies, levitations, and other gifts of God. Satan also mocks these gifts and gives his own ecstacies, levitations to individuals and they come out in Eastern pagan practices and meditations(ask any former satanist or new ager). One is of God the other of the demon. Its is very hard to distinguish sometimes by looking. Remember they said Jesus cast out satan by satan. They misunderstood his power. If they come from God there is peace in the soul and an increase of holiness. If they come from the devil there is not peace. The devil can make a person feel good and excited but the one thing he cannot give is peace.

The Priest that is talking about this is a Exorcist so he has experience with the demons and with the power of God and the saints. He is also a Catholic scholar. One of the most powerful meditations and prayers for a Christian is the rosary(which is a mediation on the mysteries of the life of Jesus and Mary).
You make some very good points concerning how Satan copies the gifts from God. This has been something people of God have had to deal with for many centuries (millennia!) ... I started to say Christians, but it was essentially the same for Moses and pharoah's magicians. At any rate, that is certainly a major tactic of the enemy!
 
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