Dispensationalism Refuted

keras said:

Well; Ebed, you are consistent in your beliefs. Opposing anything I post is an old habit of yours!

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This is because you consistently fail to hold context to many of the passages you cite Keras.

keras said:

Realize this: God does have a secret, a mystery that He has kept from our general knowledge.

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No Keras, that's a typical method used when scripture doesn't support one's view. What God doesn't reveal is His perogative...it's not a secret!

keras said:

He chose a people group to be His witness's to the world, but they failed so He scattered them around the world.
Their exile is plainly stated to be for a set period and then God intends to regather them into His holy Land, in a greater second Exodus. Isaiah 11:11, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8 and many other Bible passages that plainly describe a restoration, redemption and God's forgiveness to the same people as He originally chose.

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This is what I mean by failing to hold context Keras. If you realized the state of Israel and Judah in those passages, you would know they don't apply as you're applying them.

keras said:

Your belief denies these scriptures and denies that God is capable of knowing who and where those people are today.

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Once again you make a wrong assertion. I NEVER deny that God is omniscient! Therefore, to deny God knows anything is to deny His omniscience. What I deny is you forcing your prophetic view on scripture, which is what you do in much of your prophetic views.

keras said:

For sure, many non-Israelites who have become Christian, will join them, but in order for God's promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled; the majority will be actual descendants of Jacob.

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Here, you're close but fail again to realize Israel broke the covenant! God had NO obligation to keep it...and He didn't. This is why we have a new covenant. God's covenant with Abraham is being fulfilled. His covenant with Israel is done away in the new covenant. Much more can be said...but my challenge to you is simply that you read your references allowing them to say what they say...and not take them out of context. For example, if Isaiah 11 was not fulfilled, why does Jesus come to His own in the land of Israel?

ebedmelech said:

QUOTE="keras, post: 73951726, member: 324545"]He chose a people group to be His witness's to the world, but they failed so He scattered them around the world.
Their exile is plainly stated to be for a set period and then God intends to regather them into His holy Land, in a greater second Exodus. Isaiah 11:11, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Zechariah 8:1-8 and many other Bible passages that plainly describe a restoration, redemption and God's forgiveness to the same people as He originally chose.

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This is what I mean by failing to hold context Keras. If you realized the state of Israel and Judah in those passages, you would know they don't apply as you're applying them.[/QUOTE Ebed]

What I said about the people God chose does not just apply to the Jews. In fact only a few, just a remnant of the Jews will become citizens of the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land.
It is the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations, the people who have embraced Christianity; you and me, who are destined to be the people God wants in His holy Land. His sheep; Ezekiel 34:11-16, His faithful ones, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

keras said:

This is what I mean by failing to hold context Keras. If you realized the state of Israel and Judah in those passages, you would know they don't apply as you're applying them.[/QUOTE Ebed]

What I said about the people God chose does not just apply to the Jews. In fact only a few, just a remnant of the Jews will become citizens of the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land.
It is the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations, the people who have embraced Christianity; you and me, who are destined to be the people God wants in His holy Land. His sheep; Ezekiel 34:11-16, His faithful ones, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26

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I know that Keras. That's not the issue. You're applying the passage improperly. Question: What do you understand the books of Ezra and Nehemiah to be about?

ebedmelech said:

I know that Keras. That's not the issue. You're applying the passage improperly. Question: What do you understand the books of Ezra and Nehemiah to be about?

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Past history. But we can learn from what happened then, as Paul says: What happened to ancient Israel is symbolic and is recorded as a warning for us Christians, upon whom the end of the age has come. 1 Corinthians 10:11

Improperly applied? Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10 and Romans 9:24-27 are plainly worded scripture. They all apply to us in the end times. Who else?

keras said:

Past history. But we can learn from what happened then, as Paul says: What happened to ancient Israel is symbolic and is recorded as a warning for us Christians, upon whom the end of the age has come. 1 Corinthians 10:11

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Don't get it twisted Keras. Paul cites what he is referring to in the opening of the passage. Specifically the rebellion of Israel after the exodus from Egypt. This is what I mean in saying you force your view on scripture. You gave a prime example!

keras said:

Improperly applied? Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10 and Romans 9:24-27 are plainly worded scripture. They all apply to us in the end times. Who else?

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Yes...you improperly apply this...read verse 13 Keras. It's later in Ezekiel 34:23-41 that the passage speaks messianic to Israel. All you have to do is let the passage speak to you and rightly divide it. As the Holy Spirit to help you!

Isaiah 35:1-10...Indeed is prophetic and speaks of us dwelling with God. NOTHING of lost tribes!

Romans 9:24-27 is clearly stating Israel is made up of Jews and Gentiles...again, NOTHING of lost tribes!

Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel, namely the ten Northern tribes. Matthew 15:24
He didn't save the Jews, they rejected Him.
But His mission did not fail, the Apostles went to the non Jewish people, called by them as Gentiles, but who are the actual descendants of Jacob, scattered around the world, just as we Christians are today.
It really isn't hard to figure out God's amazing Plan, to exile the Israelites, then present the Gospel of Jesus to them, which they have embraced, so God will soon bring them back to His Land so we can fulfil our destiny.
The Bible is full of this story; that you and many can't comprehend it is because of beliefs in false theories and doctrines.

keras said:

Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel, namely the ten Northern tribes. Matthew 15:24
He didn't save the Jews, they rejected Him.
But His mission did not fail, the Apostles went to the non Jewish people, called by them as Gentiles, but who are the actual descendants of Jacob, scattered around the world, just as we Christians are today.
It really isn't hard to figure out God's amazing Plan, to exile the Israelites, then present the Gospel of Jesus to them, which they have embraced, so God will soon bring them back to His Land so we can fulfil our destiny.

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You simply don't comprehend this correctly Keras. Israel is ONE HOUSE when Jesus comes as messiah to them. They are lost not because of the Assyrian exile. They are lost SPIRITUALLY Keras! Do you notice that in the gospels tribes of Israel are not even a topic? That's because as Jeremiah 31:31 says, God has made them ONE HOUSE through the restoration we read in Ezra and Nehemiah. This is what prepared the way for Christ the Messiah to come on the scene. Israel is no longer divided into Judah and Israel as had happened because of Solomon's spiritual failures followed by Rehaboam's poor judgement which led Jeraboam to lead the 10 tribes from Israel, in accordance with God's judgement upon Soloman's failures,which God pronounced His judgement at 1 Kings 11:1-13.

When Jesus starts His ministry, He is constantly at odds with those the people looked to, to know God's will, namely the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees who had added so much to God's laws they led the people away from God, not to God. That's why the people are the lost sheep of Israel..it has nothing to do with lost tribes whatsoever. The Son of Man came to "seek and to save that which was lost" Keras!

keras said:

The Bible is full of this story; that you and many can't comprehend it is because of beliefs in false theories and doctrines.

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No Keras! To think this way is to deny Jeremiah 31:31. Jesus did say He came to the lost House (or sheep), of Israel...BUT...you're so lost in thinking there are "lost tribes" you don't understand the application is to the spiritually lost...thus you're the one who aren't comprehending this correctly! You're lost looking for lost tribes that don't even matter Keras!

ebedmelech said:

You simply don't comprehend this correctly Keras.

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Sorry, Ebed, it is your comprehension that fails.
If you want to think that the Jews are all of Israel, then you do make Jesus' mission a failure.
That the Jews represent just 2 tribes, is what they admit themselves. They know the other 10 tribes have not yet joined with them yet. It is just the confused Christians who think they have and the Jews benefit from the huge support from them.
A simple reading of Ezekiel 37, makes it clear they have not yet joined.

But I won't be arguing about this with you again, we will all soon know the truth of God's secret; how He scattered His people around the world and how they embraced Christianity and became Sons of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

keras said:

But I won't be arguing about this with you again,

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Nor will I take this any further with you Keras. Your view foreign to scripture and you just provided Ezekiel 37 as the passage that proves it. Just wow!

keras said:

It really isn't hard to figure out God's amazing Plan, to exile the Israelites, then present the Gospel of Jesus to them, which they have embraced, so God will soon bring them back to His Land so we can fulfil our destiny.

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The house of Israel have not embraced the Gospel of Jesus.

Douggg said:

The house of Israel have not embraced the Gospel of Jesus.

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So you know who the House of Israel is today?
Please give proofs of them, as having received the blessings prophesied by Jacob and Moses and are, as several verses say: as many as the sands of the sea.

keras said:

So you know who the House of Israel is today?
Please give proofs of them, as having received the blessings prophesied by Jacob and Moses and are, as several verses say: as many as the sands of the sea.

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I don't know each individual, just as no-one knows who each individual Christian is.

Generally speaking though, the house of Israel are them who's religion is Judaism, or them of the Jewish tradition.

In Judaism, a person is a Jew who's mother is a Jew. The tribal affiliation goes by the father. This is based upon in the exodus they were told to group themselves according to their fathers - i.e. what particular tribe - while in the wilderness.

What is the house of Israel is not - it is not the church. You are not of the house of Israel.

What you should be claiming instead is being of the house of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord from heaven, a new creation in Christ.

I can never understand why some Christians want to think they are Jews and Israel. And then turn around and say, neither is mandatory for salvation. It is a depressing line of thought , just like believing there is no rapture to heaven. The blessed hope, with the resurrection.

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Douggg said:

Generally speaking though, the house of Israel are them who's religion is Judaism, or them of the Jewish tradition.

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This false belief is simply impossible, for the many reasons already stated.
But people like you who are fixated on a 'rapture to heaven', look upon the Jews, like they are great and holy, whereas they are actually worse than the other nations, especially as they do have the scriptures, but basically don't keep them.

We Christians are the Israel of God and if you reject that, you contradict scripture, as that is what we are; literally the Overcomers for God, His Victorious ones.

keras said:

We Christians are the Israel of God and if you reject that, you contradict scripture, as that is what we are; literally the Overcomers for God, His Victorious ones.

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Read Revelation. The seven candlesticks are the seven churches. Revelation 1:20.

They are not called the Israel of God.

keras said:

But people like you who are fixated on a 'rapture to heaven', look upon the Jews, like they are great and holy, whereas they are actually worse than the other nations, especially as they do have the scriptures, but basically don't keep them.

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Then why are you are wanting to be a Jew?

I have never understood why Christians want to degrade themselves from being new creations in Christ to instead label themselves as spiritual Jews.

Instead of identifying yourself as Israel, you should be making a distinction between yourself and Israel.

Unbelieving Jews and Israel go through the great tribulation. Them in Christ will be raptured out of the world to heaven before that happens - well, that is them who believe it.

Douggg said:

It is a depressing line of thought , just like believing there is no rapture to heaven. The blessed hope, with the resurrection.

Matthew 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

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Nice presentation. Of course, there was a lack of response to these gems of truth.

Douggg said:

They are not called the Israel of God.

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You are simply denying the meaning of the Hebrew word; 'Israel'.
Israel means: 'one who Overcomes for God', which is what Jacob was and we Christians are. Paul confirms it in Galatians 6:14-16

Douggg said:

Then why are you are wanting to be a Jew?

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An accusation made from ignorance and to denigrate me.

Douggg said:

Unbelieving Jews and Israel go through the great tribulation. Them in Christ will be raptured out of the world to heaven before that happens - well, that is them who believe it.

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You display a great lack of knowledge of what the Bible prophets actually say.
The Jewish State of Israel will be no more after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:29

'Rapture to heaven"? Where, when, why? Unless you provide scriptures for these, you are just a speculator and a pusher of false theories.
The shockingly bad idea of only those who believe the 'rapture to heaven' theory, will participate in it, is actually the serious sin of judging your fellow Christians. James 4:12

Choose Wisely said:

Nice presentation. Of course, there was a lack of response to these gems of truth.

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Gems of paste and glass, our treasures are those of faith and trust in the saving power of Jesus, THROUGH all that must happen until He Returns.

keras said:

You are simply denying the meaning of the Hebrew word; 'Israel'.
Israel means: 'one who Overcomes for God', which is what Jacob was and we Christians are. Paul confirms it in Galatians 6:14-16

An accusation made from ignorance and to denigrate me.

You display a great lack of knowledge of what the Bible prophets actually say.
The Jewish State of Israel will be no more after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:29

'Rapture to heaven"? Where, when, why? Unless you provide scriptures for these, you are just a speculator and a pusher of false theories.
The shockingly bad idea of only those who believe the 'rapture to heaven' theory, will participate in it, is actually the serious sin of judging your fellow Christians. James 4:12

Gems of paste and glass, our treasures are those of faith and trust in the saving power of Jesus, THROUGH all that must happen until He Returns.

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Using Galatians 6 as the gauntlet for Dispensationalism or Covenant Supersession isn’t really a factual claim as the Kai’s render it three possible ways.

The hard dispensational rendering requires the Kai to become the word “Even”. So we’ll throw that one out.

But the Dispensational meaning where Kai becomes “and” And is placed to differentiate the BOC from Israel or the Supersession meaning where the BOC is called Israel both fit context within the book of Galatians.

It is mere opinion to demand the verse falls either way.

Jerusalem Above, as Paul references In Galatians 4 is about the closest a Supersession system can get to citing a New Jerusalem where the BOC and Israel are one...

But this is a Heavenly Jerusalem and to recognize it, a Supersession system is again forced to recognize Jerusalem of this earth that is “In Slavery”.

This isn’t a proof that the Type (Israel) is the (Anti Type) the BOC.

Paul painstakingly separates the three groups in Romans 9-11

1) Israel in Unbelief (Cutoff)

2) Israel in Belief (Part Of BOC where there is Jew nor Gentile)

3) Gentiles in Belief (Part Of BOC where there is no Jew nor Gentile)

This is an enormously proof-able Exegesis that requires zero interpolation to surmise.

Grip Docility said:

Using Galatians 6 as the gauntlet for Dispensationalism or Covenant Supersession isn’t really a factual claim as the Kai’s render it three possible ways.

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I don't quote Galatians 6:14-16 for either of those beliefs.
In that passage, Paul teaches how we Christians are a new person in Christ and all who follow in this Way, peace and mercy be upon them; the Israel of God.

Your perspective is from one who must have a physical Israel, namely the Jewish State of Israel, on earth while you go to heaven in a 'rapture'.
This theory is far removed from God's actual Plan for His people in the end times.

The Israel we know today is prophesied many times in the Bible to face the Lord's wrath for their sins and only a remnant will survive. It will be the true Israel of God, who will receive the Blessings promised to His faithful people and to whom the surviving Jews will acknowledge as His beloved people. Revelation 3:9

ebedmelech said:

This view is so bad because in Acts 15 James quotes Amos 9:11-12 at Acts 15:13-18! According to James there are no lost tribes.

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You know not of what you speak.

keras said:

'Rapture to heaven"? Where, when, why? Unless you provide scriptures for these, you are just a speculator and a pusher of false theories.

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John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So you don't think Jesus is in the third heaven where God's throne is?

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Where are you going to be when this earth and everything in it is burnt up?

2Peter2:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

keras said:

The Jewish State of Israel will be no more after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:29

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What's the capital of Israel ?

Zechariah 14;16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.