LDS Why did Joseph Smith lie about teachings in the Book of Mormon

Peter1000 · May 17, 2019

USincognito said:
Standard Mormon apologia. The problem is not that we haven't yet found evidence for those things, but that all the evidence we find contradicts those things.

What evidence has been found to contradict these things? And, the evidence found thus far is from only 8% of the total universe of possible area to find evidence. It is standard Mormon apologia, but it just happens to also be a factual reality. Let's get to the end of the diggings and see what evidence is found, before you make your determination. You may have to modify your belief.

This is more apologia. List three and we'll discuss them.

1) people did not write on gold plates.
2) ancient people did not have the technology to sail to the Americas, the only way that the Americas was populated was over the Bering Strait
3) people did not use stone boxes
4) the Indians did not know how to make cement

There is zero evidence that any of the structures we have found are derived from ancient Hebrew or Egyptian buildings.

Except that when you ask the question: What county has pyramids, 100% of the answers will be Egypt. Not one will answer Mesoamerica, or southern United States. But there are way more pyramids in Mesoamerica and southern U.S.

Which pyramids are older? The Egyptian. Which pyramids are larger? The Great Pyramid of Cholula, also known as Tlachihualtepetl in Cholula Mexicol.

So for you to say there is zero evidence that any of the structures that we have found in Mesoamerica or southern U.S. are derived from ancient Egyptian buildings is an absolutely misleading statement.
You should study up on the pyramids, unless you think they are not structures or buildings? Let me know how that study ends.

Peter1000 · May 17, 2019

RichardY said:
@Ironhold
In Islam you are a slave to Allah's word in the Quran, if you leave you lose your soul.(Are chained.)

How is it different in Mormonism.

Through a glass darkly, do we see.

How is it different in mainstream Christianity?

RichardY · May 17, 2019

@Peter1000 Mainstream Christianity is Monotheist. Although it has many different theological and philosophical backings.

Moromonism is Polytheist, or Transtheist. It is in essence ~~it is~~ pluralistic.

Ultimate reality is God, with many different aspects. Holopantheism. (weak Panentheism).

Although Strong Panentheism has it's appeals, paradox or vice. Without which there could be no, Good and Evil.

Edit: typo.

Christian Apologist · May 17, 2019

Peter1000 said:
How is it different in mainstream Christianity?

The difference is over whelming

Peter1000 · May 17, 2019

Ironhold said:
If we were to start posting links showing the actual discoveries that critics of the church try to pretend never happened, would anyone actually bother reading them?

Christian Apologist said:
Would like to know where you got your factious numbers ?

The Truth about Mormonism: The misinformation and hyperbole of the Mormon leaders pertaining to the Book Of Mormon

I read an article years ago that stated there were around 30+ statements in the BOM that critics howled and scoffed at when the book was published. However, over the years, 20+ or so have been shown to be true. (they now scoff that JS got lucky) So there are 10+ or so that have still not been discovered yet, but there is still a lot of time and a lot of digging to do in Mesoamerica and the U.S. before the verdict can be declared. Here is a partial list:

1) BOM people used cement?
2) BOM people used stone boxes?
3) BOM people used swords?
4) BOM people used plates of gold to write religious information
5) BOM people had major cities
6) BOM people used armor
7) BOM people sailed here from the middle east
8) BOM people were warlike
9) BOM people sacrificed humans
10)BOM people built great walls around their cities
11)BOM people built great defensive apparatus around their cities
12)BOM people raised grain
13)BOM people built cement highways
14)BOM people believed in Jesus Christ
15)BOM people at one time had horses
16)BOM people at one time had elephants
17)BOM people used weights and measures instead of coin money
18)BOM military was organized into captains for X soldiers and higher-up captains for Y soldiers
19)BOM people came from Jerusalem
20)BOM people were a high civilization with the ability to read and write extensively

It is an interesting study, and there is a lot to still be discovered. Brigham Young said that eventually there will be so much evidence that it will be hard not to accept that the BOM is a true book. Of course, a spiritual confirmation from the Holy Spirit is essential to any truth, and in this case is the most important element of knowing that the BOM is true. But the hard, hold-in-your-hand evidence is not bad either.

Peter1000 · May 17, 2019

Christian Apologist said:
The difference is over whelming

View attachment 256661

Again, you are not responding to how different Christianity is to the Muslim religion in respect to: if you leave, you lose your soul. So here is my question again: If a person leaves Christianity and joins the Muslim religion, do they lose their soul?

Christian Apologist · May 17, 2019

Peter1000 said:
I read an article years ago that stated there were around 30+ statements in the BOM that critics howled and scoffed at when the book was published. However, over the years, 20+ or so have been shown to be true. (they now scoff that JS got lucky) So there are 10+ or so that have still not been discovered yet, but there is still a lot of time and a lot of digging to do in Mesoamerica and the U.S. before the verdict can be declared. Here is a partial list:

It is an interesting study, and there is a lot to still be discovered. Brigham Young said that eventually there will be so much evidence that it will be hard not to accept that the BOM is a true book. Of course, a spiritual confirmation from the Holy Spirit is essential to any truth, and in this case is the most important element of knowing that the BOM is true. But the hard, hold-in-your-hand evidence is not bad either.

What's interesting is how the Book of Mormon completely contradicts Joseph Smith's teaching on the person and nature of God

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

Peter1000 · May 17, 2019

RichardY said:
@Peter1000 Mainstream Christianity is Monotheist. Although it has many different theological and philosophical backings.

Moromonism is Polytheist, or Transtheist. It is in essence it is pluralistic.

Ultimate reality is God, with many different aspects. Holopantheism. (weak Panentheism).

Although Strong Panentheism has it's appeals, paradox or vice. With which there could be no, Good and Evil.

The question is not how is Christianity different from Mormonism, it is: If you are a Christian and you leave Christianity and join the Muslim religion, do you lose your soul? What do you think?

drstevej · May 17, 2019

Peter1000 said:
The question is not how is Christianity different from Mormonism, it is: If you are a Christian and you leave Christianity and join the Muslim religion, do you lose your soul? What do you think?

This is the thread topic:
Why did Joseph Smith lie about teachings in the Book of Mormon

Peter1000 · May 17, 2019

Christian Apologist said:
What's interesting is how the Book of Mormon completely contradicts Joseph Smith's teaching on the person and nature of God

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

View attachment 256664

Whats more interesting is how you just sidestepped by post. You asked for a list of things that JS said in the BOM in 1830 that litterally got him killed in 1844. The BOM was the height of scholarly ridiculousness in the 1830's and raised the ire of all the "so called" educated class.
Only now, that ire has turned to "well JS just had dumb luck", because most of what he said in the BOM that was controversial in 1830 is now standard knowledge.

Thank you JS.

Now please respond to this, if you can.

Peter1000 · May 17, 2019

drstevej said:
This is the thread topic:
Why did Joseph Smith lie about teachings in the Book of Mormon

You should have directed this to RichardY. He asked the question in post 19.

RichardY · May 17, 2019

@Peter1000

With Christianity to follow Christ's example is optional. You do it, because it it the truth of salvation.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I think the word "that" instead of "the" would be more appropriate. Translations, grammar and interpretation vary tremendously.

-------------------

With induction you can go back and forth all day. Some may offer evidence one way, another something different. If the 90% of Christians think that just believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is enough, that he atoned for all sin. It is convenient to belief that. Like the story of Lazarus in Hell. They may have their comfort now.

Calvin_1985 · May 17, 2019

Ironhold said:
1. Once upon a time, critics of the church mocked the prospect that the gold plates could have existed. They further boldly proclaimed that if they did exist, the plates would be too heavy for any one person to carry.

Tumbaga - Wikipedia

It's now established fact that a gold / copper alloy known as "Tumbaga" was in use in pre-Columbian Central America, and that its uses included religious items.

And as an alloy of gold, it's much lighter. I've seen estimates have the plates as low as 90 pounds, which is less than the weight of a US infantryman's standard combat gear.

2. Once upon a time, critics of the church proclaimed that swords didn't exist in Central America before Columbus.

Macuahuitl - Wikipedia

It's now established fact that in Central America, many peoples had weapons made by using tree sap to affix sharpened obsidian to wood. One version of this weapon, the one in the main pic on the article, is akin to a European broadsword and the early conquistadors spoke of its power in battle.

Back when Discovery Networks maintained their own message forums, the "Mythbusters" fan site - which I was on - kept getting spammed by people wanting to see this tested.

3. Once upon a time, critics of the church laughed at the prospect of people in Central America wearing armor in battle.

Aztec warfare - Wikipedia

The Aztecs had a type of padded armor (over which they'd wear tunics), a type of carved wooden shield, and a type of carved wooden helmet.

It's basic stuff, but it would have been more than enough to deal with hurled rocks or blunt weaponry.

That's three things archaeology has declared - beyond dispute - that Central America had even though critics of the church swear they don't exist.

I honestly don't see How All of those things you posted as proof for Mormonism proves Joseph Smith because those items are items that Native Americans of North, Central, and South America had for various things.

Maria Billingsley · May 17, 2019

Christian Apologist said:
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

So if that’s the case why can’t we find these teachings in the Book of Mormon ?

1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)

2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)

3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)

4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)

5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)

6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)

7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)

8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)

9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)

10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)

11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)

12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)

13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)

14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)

15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)

16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)

17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)

18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)

19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)

20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)

21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

22. Jesus was Married and Practiced polygamy (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210).

(Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82).

(Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259).

23. No eternal hell

LDS Apostle John Widtsoe declared, "In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (E. & R., p. 216). Yet, the B. of M. says, "The devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell and behold others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell" (II Nephi 28:21-22). Thus, the B. of M. explains where Mormonism got its doctrine of no hell!

The B. of M. also says, "If ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:35).

24. Animal sacrifice after Jesus' blood was shed

RESTORATION OF BLOOD SACRIFICES. We are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam's transgression. 44 Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored. 45

The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.

3 Nephi 9:19 Jesus was supposed to have said: "And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings."

25. Atonement happened in Garden of Gethsemane

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not view the atonement of Christ in the biblical and historical Christian manner. Instead of the atonement occurring on the cross, Mormonism teaches that the atonement occurred primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus shed His blood. Please consider the following quotes from a BYU professor and the Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie.

•BYU professor Robert J. Matthews, who on page 282 of his book, A Bible! A Bible!, wrote, "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood-more so than on the cross."

•Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, stated, "Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane," (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 774,

1 Nephi 11:33

And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

26. Eternal Progression

27. Maintaining genealogical records

28. Mormons hold keys to the kingdom

29 . Eternal Families

30 . creation from matter and Ex Nihilo wrong

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

31. Exaltation

32. Everyone will be saved thru Grace just not exalted

32. God is not omniscient

God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

33. Garden of Eden in Missouri

34. Continuing Revelation

35. Mormon Plan of salvation

36. The ROCK is revelation rather than Jesus

Helaman 5:12

12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

Why write so much on Joseph Smith? We all know he is a false prophet.

Alithis · May 17, 2019

Christian Apologist said:
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

So if that’s the case why can’t we find these teachings in the Book of Mormon ?

1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)

2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)

3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)

4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)

5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)

6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)

7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)

8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)

9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)

10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)

11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)

12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)

13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)

14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)

15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)

16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)

17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)

18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)

19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)

20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)

21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

22. Jesus was Married and Practiced polygamy (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210).

(Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82).

(Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259).

23. No eternal hell

LDS Apostle John Widtsoe declared, "In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (E. & R., p. 216). Yet, the B. of M. says, "The devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell and behold others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell" (II Nephi 28:21-22). Thus, the B. of M. explains where Mormonism got its doctrine of no hell!

The B. of M. also says, "If ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:35).

24. Animal sacrifice after Jesus' blood was shed

RESTORATION OF BLOOD SACRIFICES. We are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam's transgression. 44 Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored. 45

The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.

3 Nephi 9:19 Jesus was supposed to have said: "And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings."

25. Atonement happened in Garden of Gethsemane

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not view the atonement of Christ in the biblical and historical Christian manner. Instead of the atonement occurring on the cross, Mormonism teaches that the atonement occurred primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus shed His blood. Please consider the following quotes from a BYU professor and the Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie.

•BYU professor Robert J. Matthews, who on page 282 of his book, A Bible! A Bible!, wrote, "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood-more so than on the cross."

•Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, stated, "Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane," (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 774,

1 Nephi 11:33

And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

26. Eternal Progression

27. Maintaining genealogical records

28. Mormons hold keys to the kingdom

29 . Eternal Families

30 . creation from matter and Ex Nihilo wrong

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

31. Exaltation

32. Everyone will be saved thru Grace just not exalted

32. God is not omniscient

God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

33. Garden of Eden in Missouri

34. Continuing Revelation

35. Mormon Plan of salvation

36. The ROCK is revelation rather than Jesus

Helaman 5:12

12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

Well its obvious whose father smiths was..
The father of lies

RichardY · May 17, 2019

@Maria Billingsley
Are you not entertained?

I suppose that's a rather cold statement.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather than that light, because their deeds were evil.

Maria Billingsley · May 17, 2019

RichardY said:
@Maria Billingsley
Are you not entertained?

I suppose that's a rather cold statement.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light came into the world, and men loved darkness rather than that light, because their deeds were evil.

No not really. I have done a lot of research on the Mormon's and at the end of the day it boils down to a false prophet.

YJM · May 17, 2019

Christian Apologist said:
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

So if that’s the case why can’t we find these teachings in the Book of Mormon ?

1. The plurality of Gods (Mormon Doctrine pp. 576, 577)

2. The baptism for the dead done in holy temples (Mormon Doctrine pp. 72,73)

3. Celestial marriage which no unworthy member or outsider can attend (Mormon Doctrine pp. 117, 118)

4. Polygamy needed to become a God (Journal of Discourse, Vol. II p. 269)

5. Blacks were cursed with a dark skin (Mormon Doctrine p. 109)

6. You can become a God if you are worthy; celestial marriage required (Mormon Doctrine p. 118)

7. We were all pre-existent spirits (Mormon Doctrine p. 589)

8. God has a body of flesh and bones (Mormon Doctrine p. 289)

9. We have a Heavenly Mother as well as a Heavenly Father (Mormon Doctrine p. 516)

10. There are three levels of heaven. To go to the highest kingdom, you must be a Mormon. Honorable persons go to the Terrestrial kingdom. The dishonest, liars, sorcerers, adulterers and whoremongers go to the Telestial kingdom. (Mormon Doctrine pp. 420, 421)

11. God and his wife achieved a celestial marriage (Celestial Marriage Manual p. 1)

12. Heavenly Father died just like Jesus (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 346)

13. God was once just like us and progressed to godhood (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 345)

14. God has a father and His Father has a Father, etc. (Mormon Doctrine p. 322)

15. Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers (Mormon Doctrine p. 192)

16. Jesus and Lucifer each had a plan to people the earth. Jesus' plan was chosen and caused Lucifer to rebel and he and the angels that followed him were cast out of heaven. (Mormon Doctrine p. 193)

17. God lives near a star called Kolob (Mormon Doctrine p. 428)

18. Temple endowments are so sacred that you must be worthy to enter (Mormon Doctrine pp. 619, 620)

19. Jesus was not able to keep his church together (History of the Church Vol. 6 pp. 408, 409)

20. In the future, you will need Joseph Smith's consent in order to enter the celestial kingdom (Journal of Discourse Vol. 7 p.289)

21. Not everything you'll need to know concerning salvation will be recorded in the Bible but there will be additional scriptures (Mormon Doctrine p. 83)"

22. Jesus was Married and Practiced polygamy (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.210).

(Journal of Discourses, vol.2, p.82).

(Journal of Discourses, vol.4, p.259).

23. No eternal hell

LDS Apostle John Widtsoe declared, "In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation" (E. & R., p. 216). Yet, the B. of M. says, "The devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell and behold others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell" (II Nephi 28:21-22). Thus, the B. of M. explains where Mormonism got its doctrine of no hell!

The B. of M. also says, "If ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:35).

24. Animal sacrifice after Jesus' blood was shed

RESTORATION OF BLOOD SACRIFICES. We are living in the dispensation of the fulness of times into which all things are to be gathered, and all things are to be restored since the beginning. Even this earth is to be restored to the condition which prevailed before Adam's transgression. 44 Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored. 45

The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character.

3 Nephi 9:19 Jesus was supposed to have said: "And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings."

25. Atonement happened in Garden of Gethsemane

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints does not view the atonement of Christ in the biblical and historical Christian manner. Instead of the atonement occurring on the cross, Mormonism teaches that the atonement occurred primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane when Jesus shed His blood. Please consider the following quotes from a BYU professor and the Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie.

•BYU professor Robert J. Matthews, who on page 282 of his book, A Bible! A Bible!, wrote, "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood-more so than on the cross."

•Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, stated, "Where and under what circumstances was the atoning sacrifice of the Son of God made? Was it on the Cross of Calvary or in the Garden of Gethsemane? It is to the Cross of Christ that most Christians look when centering their attention upon the infinite and eternal atonement. And certainly the sacrifice of our Lord was completed when he was lifted up by men; also, that part of his life and suffering is more dramatic and, perhaps, more soul stirring. But in reality the pain and suffering, the triumph and grandeur, of the atonement took place primarily in Gethsemane," (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, vol. 1, p. 774,

1 Nephi 11:33

And I, Nephi, saw that he was lifted up upon the cross and slain for the sins of the world.

26. Eternal Progression

27. Maintaining genealogical records

28. Mormons hold keys to the kingdom

29 . Eternal Families

30 . creation from matter and Ex Nihilo wrong

Jacob 4:9 For behold, by the power of his a word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the dearth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

31. Exaltation

32. Everyone will be saved thru Grace just not exalted

32. God is not omniscient

God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

33. Garden of Eden in Missouri

34. Continuing Revelation

35. Mormon Plan of salvation

36. The ROCK is revelation rather than Jesus

Helaman 5:12

12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

Because he was a false prophet and inspired by Satan? Could it be more clear?

Sola1517 · May 18, 2019

Peter1000 said:
You haven't done your homework either. Study up

Why don't you tell me where to start?

And if you send me to any Mormon website I will consider this conversation over, give me secular sources that confirm Mormon archaeology.

Ironhold · May 18, 2019

Sola1517 said:
Why don't you tell me where to start?

And if you send me to any Mormon website I will consider this conversation over, give me secular sources that confirm Mormon archaeology.

If you go back to post #20 -> LDS - Why did Joseph Smith lie about teachings in the Book of Mormon -> you'll see that I posted Wikipedia articles concerning three specific topics.

That's right: on those specific topics, the historical evidence is so firmly settled that even the edit trolls on the site can't contest it.

It is settled that not only did metal-working exist in Pre-Columbian America, it was advanced enough that the peoples of Central America were able to make a gold / copper alloy known as "Tumbaga" which was often used to create religious materials.

It is settled that various Central American peoples made weapons out of sharpened obsidian, including a category of weapons known as the "macuahuitl" that consisted of rows of obsidian being anchored into wood; one version of the macuahuitl was indeed comparable to a European broadsword in size, shape, and use, and even the conquistadors testified to its lethal effectiveness. Thus, what we know as "swords" existed in Pre-Columbian days even without the use of metal.

It is settled that some Central American peoples used non-metallic body armor even before Columbus. This armor consisted of padded clothing hardened by brine, wooden shields (which were also quite common in the old world), and carved helmets.

Even to this day there are critics of the church who swear that these things don't exist and the BoM is "wrong" for mentioning them, but everything from archaeological finds to undeniable historical record testify of their existence.

LDS Why did Joseph Smith lie about teachings in the Book of Mormon

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