Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

parousia70

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Quite the contrary. It’s an example of refusing to compromise text, to listen to what God is telling us.
Not really... because you have to ignore the literal meaning of the text, which would be it's primary application to the original receivers, and superimpose an elastic, indirect meaning simply to suit your futurist bias.

Your futurist bias will not allow you to accept the plain meaning and direct, original application at face value.
 
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Grip Docility

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Not really... because you have to ignore the literal meaning of the text, which would be it's primary application to the original receivers, and superimpose an elastic, indirect meaning simply to suit your futurist bias.

You futurist bias will not allow you to accept the plain meaning and direct, original application at face value.

You will forgive me, but haven’t we strung this out to how perspective changes understanding?

I’m confident we’ve all given both sides pretty solidly.
 
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parousia70

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You will forgive me, but haven’t we strung this out to how perspective changes understanding?

I’m confident we’ve all given both side pretty solidly.

Kinda... though from my perspective you've left some very pertinent questions of mine go unanswered. Questions that, if you were able to answer, would clear a whole lot up.
Your position seems to rest on very fluid foundation, that seems to change with the winds... such as your contention that near means far unless it means near, but it can only mean near if it fits your theology.

You tried admirably to solidify the foundation when you attempted to make the distinction that near means literally near when it's NOT in the context of Jesus' Return, but when it is in the context f Jesus' return, near means the exact opposite, namely far away. (Still not sure where scripture teaches you this overall concept, but we can get to that later..)

Yet when asked to explain if near means near or far in Matthew 24:33, which is clearly in the context of His return, you went silent.

Care to Answer that now?

33 So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near—at the doors!

In Matt 24:33, does near mean near as it relates to men, or as it relates to God?

Which concept was Jesus looking to convey to His disciples here in this specific passage in regards to His return? Nearness to men or Nearness to God, which could be thousands of years? ...and how would the disciples be able to tell the difference?
 
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parousia70

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James quotes Jesus' own words from Matt 24:33 in James 5:8-9

Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near—at the doors!

Jesus was clear.
His coming would NOT be "near" & "at the door" UNTIL certain signs were seen.

James, writing some decades later under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, claims the following:
James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

We have only 2 choices.

1) James was wrong
2) James saw the "all these things" Jesus spelled out in Matt 24 come to pass, and was correct in his proclamation.

My money is on #2
 
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Grip Docility

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James quotes Jesus' own words from Matt 24:33 in James 5:8-9

Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near—at the doors!

Jesus was clear.
His coming would NOT be "near" & "at the door" UNTIL certain signs were seen.

James, writing some decades later under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, claims the following:
James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

We have only 2 choices.

1) James was wrong
2) James saw the "all these things" Jesus spelled out in Matt 24 come to pass, and was correct in his proclamation.

My money is on #2

James was to the Diaspora... as Peter was...

My money is that Peter and James agreed on 2 Peter 3

;)
 
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Grip Docility

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James quotes Jesus' own words from Matt 24:33 in James 5:8-9

Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know it is near—at the doors!

Jesus was clear.
His coming would NOT be "near" & "at the door" UNTIL certain signs were seen.

James, writing some decades later under the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, claims the following:
James 5:8-9
8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

We have only 2 choices.

1) James was wrong
2) James saw the "all these things" Jesus spelled out in Matt 24 come to pass, and was correct in his proclamation.

My money is on #2

2 Peter 3 ;)

You can’t pick and choose.

Peter made it abundantly clear. James and Peter were both to the Diaspora... thus they both agreed on 2 Peter 3.

Insinuation debunked.
 
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parousia70

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2 Peter 3 ;)
You can’t pick and choose.

Ok, since we can't pick and choose, you are saying Jesus did NOT mean "near" in the literal, human sense in Matthew 24:33?

He meant near in the 2 Peter 3 way, as it relates to God, which could be thousands of years?

Or, is Matthew 24:33 the exception to the "you can't pick and choose" rule?
 
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mkgal1

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Hmmm... what of the same people He’s speaking to?

Funny how some of God’s words get used to support one idea, but thrown out to contest others.
Could you maybe rephrase this first paragraph. I'm not understanding what you mean.
 
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mkgal1

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Grip Docility said:
Hmmm... what of the same people He’s speaking to?
mkgal said:
Could you maybe rephrase this first question? I'm not understanding what you mean.
Let thread history reveal the intent behind the statement.
I tried that. The sentence is incoherent, is the trouble.
 
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Grip Docility

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Ah hah! I knew you'd play the double fulfillment card sooner or later!
You pretty much have to, to get your theology to work.

Where does this scripture teach what you claim?

Isaac... Jesus...

Type... Anti Type

Not double fulfillment.
 
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Grip Docility

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I tried that. The sentence is incoherent, is the trouble.

Isaiah 51 to Isaiah forward speaks to a specific people and then is fulfilled in Christ... but was still spoken to those people with Typification based Prophecy.

Type / Anti Type
 
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Grip Docility

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In Matthew 24:33, near means...?

It means that you are a fellow Tenacious Christian... that enjoys speaking about Scriptural points with fellow believers.

It means we have shot at this bird from every possible angle.

It means, I’ve really enjoyed all of your input and challenges at each turn.

It means... We long for the day when we can be In His Presence, whether that’s at Death... (Preterist And Futurist View)... or at His second coming... (Possibly Preterist And Futurist view)

All blessings in Jesus Christ to you Parousia70.
 
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eleos1954

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This ^

After all, Messianic scriptures were expected to have been fulfilled in one shot, by the Jewish Leaders, in Jesus’ day.

Instead of dividing scripture properly and seeing things occur in phases, they lumped it all together and expected a conquering Messiah.

This doesn’t erase the fact that the disciples asked this...

So when they had come together, they asked Him, “Lord, are You restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”

Jesus literally responds this...

He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or periods that the Father has set by His own authority.

There, we have Jesus nodding to National Israel based Apostles that there will be a time their question will come to fruition!

Then, Jesus follows with a, “but, for now” “before that time”, sort of statement...

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Acts 1:6-8 - Bible Gateway passage: Acts 1:6-8 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

The last statement is clearly about the coming time of the Gentiles, which Paul and Jesus confirm will have a close... (Romans 11:25 ; Luke 21:24)

Though this is as PLAIN as day, what do we have? People lumping all Prophecy together, ignoring Scriptural timeline and becoming Eisegetic in their teachings and understandings.

Just like Israel, part 1, the Gentiles are all saying that it’s all about them and there is no other group God will look after!

Anyhow, Well said!

After all, we have this text to remember...


He said, “Do you know why I’ve come to you? I must return at once to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I leave, the prince of Greece will come. No one has the courage to support me against them except Michael, your prince. However, I will tell you what is recorded in the book of truth.
Daniel 10:20-21 - Bible Gateway passage: Daniel 10:20-21 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

This is pretty important because we are told Israel has an appointed Arch Angel that fights for it. This is to Daniel and National Israel!

Makes sense, when we later read this...

Revelation 12:7-10 and later, this (Revelation 19:17)

Both those verses are bound to Israel, which salvation was ultimately provided to the Gentile BOC, through.

There’s even a 12 X 12 number of Jewish Tribes listed in Revelation.

Current western Logic... (If it disagrees with our theology, let’s spiritualize it)


Romans 2

28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

Romans 9

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”a 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

Galatians 3

Sons Through Faith in Christ

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Israel is spiritual, all who are in Christ are Gods Israel, we are all the same. (Abraham's seed according to the promise)

Believing Jews are grafted back in.

Romans 11

24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

During the millennium the saved of all ages, including faithful Jews who lived before the Cross and believing Christians who have lived since then, are all in the heavenly kingdom. Revelation 7:15 speaks of them: "They are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple." The temple of God is in heaven, not on this earth Revelation 11:19; 15:5. Not until the end of the millennium does the holy city, New Jerusalem, descend from heaven to this earth compare Revelation 21:2 with Revelation 20:7-9. During the millennium the saved of all ages, including those who have passed through the end-time tribulation see Daniel 12:1; Revelation. 7:14, are occupying thrones in the heavenly temple judging lost human beings and angels compare Revelation 20:4 with 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3 .

The idea that the literal nation Israel will be completely restored at the end of history, that during the millennium the Old Testament promises to Israel will be literally fulfilled is an unbiblical teaching. Because the Jews rejected Christ, they lost their chosen nation status, lost the promise that the land of Palestine would be theirs forever, and forfeited their privilege of being the teachers of the Gospel to an unbelieving world. Our Lord bestowed upon His Church in all the world these covenant promises. The land will, indeed, belong to His people, but it will not be limited to Palestine. It will be first the heavenly Canaan during the millennium, followed by the earth made new at the end of the 1,000 years. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" Matthew. 5:5
 
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Grip Docility

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Romans 2

28A man is not a Jew because he is one outwardly, nor is circumcision only outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew because he is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise does not come from men, but from God.

Romans 9

6It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”a 8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

Galatians 3

Sons Through Faith in Christ

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Israel is spiritual, all who are in Christ are Gods Israel, we are all the same. (Abraham's seed according to the promise)

Believing Jews are grafted back in.

Romans 11

24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

During the millennium the saved of all ages, including faithful Jews who lived before the Cross and believing Christians who have lived since then, are all in the heavenly kingdom. Revelation 7:15 speaks of them: "They are before the throne of God, and worship him day and night within his temple." The temple of God is in heaven, not on this earth Revelation 11:19; 15:5. Not until the end of the millennium does the holy city, New Jerusalem, descend from heaven to this earth compare Revelation 21:2 with Revelation 20:7-9. During the millennium the saved of all ages, including those who have passed through the end-time tribulation see Daniel 12:1; Revelation. 7:14, are occupying thrones in the heavenly temple judging lost human beings and angels compare Revelation 20:4 with 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3 .

The idea that the literal nation Israel will be completely restored at the end of history, that during the millennium the Old Testament promises to Israel will be literally fulfilled is an unbiblical teaching. Because the Jews rejected Christ, they lost their chosen nation status, lost the promise that the land of Palestine would be theirs forever, and forfeited their privilege of being the teachers of the Gospel to an unbelieving world. Our Lord bestowed upon His Church in all the world these covenant promises. The land will, indeed, belong to His people, but it will not be limited to Palestine. It will be first the heavenly Canaan during the millennium, followed by the earth made new at the end of the 1,000 years. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth" Matthew. 5:5

There is Jerusalem Above (According to Paul)
But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Galatians 4:26 - Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:26 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

There is Jerusalem Below (According to Paul)

Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
Galatians 4:25 - Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:25 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

As for Romans 11 in context...

Romans 9:1-6 opens up clear as day, as does Romans 10:1-4 and Romans 11:1-10

Full context?

I ask, then, have they stumbled in order to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring! Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them. For if their rejection brings reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Therefore, consider God’s kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen but God’s kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from your native wild olive and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these—the natural branches—be grafted into their own olive tree? So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob. And this will be My covenant with them when I take away their sins. Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs, since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has ever first given to Him, and has to be repaid? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:11-36 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11:11-36 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Romans 11 context is clear. It can’t be bent, broken or twisted.

The Bible teaches God’s promises depend on God, not man.

According to Acts 1, where does Jesus ascend from and how do the Angels say He will return?
 
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mister rogers

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Again, what EVIDENCE do you have that TODAY's Multi-ethnic, SECULAR Democratic nation-state Israel QUALIFIES BIBLICALLY as the "return" of the Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy?
But could physical Israel simply refer to the lineage (Jacob) and not it's governing structure (whether theocracy or democracy, etc.)?

You seem to have omitted any in that reply.

"well, it must be a miracle of God since those multi-ethnic, Democratic secularists call themselves Israel and forcibly took over similar geography" is pretty weak "biblical proof" of the “return of the Hebrew theocracy”.

Got anything more concrete?
 
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mister rogers

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I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?
Another thought for this: Does believing Paul to mean a future mass conversion of ethnic Jews in Romans 11:25-32 and/or that Ezekiel 36-37:14 has been unfolding, necessitate a premillenial view?
 
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