The Works of the Law

Soyeong · May 16, 2019

HTacianas said:
Paul made it clear in his letter to the Colossians what he meant by "works of the law":

Col 2:20 - Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations

Col 2:21 - “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,”

It is clear what he means. He is perfectly consistent in all of his letters. We are not justified by adhering to laws of ritual purity.

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would not have referred to those teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commandments of God in accordance with what Christ taught as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He described these elemental spirits of the world in more detail later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

In verse 22, he referred to verse 21 as being according to human precepts and teachings and then went on say that they were promoting self-mad religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so he was not speaking about God's Law, ceremonial or otherwise, but about pagan teachings. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul directly contrasted works of the law, which were a law that was of works, with God's Law, which he said that our faith upholds, so it is the law of faith. So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by pagans because they were obeying God, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

The phrase "works of the law" has no definite article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as the Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences which were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become saved. This phrase is also used in the same way in Qumran Text 4QMMT.

HTacianas · May 16, 2019

Soyeong said:
Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would not have referred to those teaching obedience to the holy, righteous, and good commandments of God in accordance with what Christ taught as taking people captive by philosophy and empty deceit according to human tradition and not according to Christ. He described these elemental spirits of the world in more detail later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

In verse 22, he referred to verse 21 as being according to human precepts and teachings and then went on say that they were promoting self-mad religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, so he was not speaking about God's Law, ceremonial or otherwise, but about pagan teachings. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul directly contrasted works of the law, which were a law that was of works, with God's Law, which he said that our faith upholds, so it is the law of faith. So the Colossians were keeping God's holy days in obedience to God's commands in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged by pagans because they were obeying God, and Paul was encouraging them not to let any man judge them and keep them from obeying God.

The phrase "works of the law" has no definite article in the Greek, so it is literally translated as "works of law", which means that it does not refer to a definitive set of laws, such as the Law of Moses, but rather Paul used it as a catch-all phrase to refer to a large body of Jewish oral laws, traditions, rulings, and fences which were being taught that people needed to obey in order to become saved. This phrase is also used in the same way in Qumran Text 4QMMT.

You now have to go back and explain whose regulations prohibited "touching, tasting, and handling". Each of those are prohibitions of the Levitical laws. They have never been part of Christianity.

Soyeong · May 16, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
But Gentiles could, in a misguided attempt to please God, seek to obey the Law of Moses, in the context of Christian faith. Galatians deals with this.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His followers to repent and return to obedience to His Law, and even Christ began his ministry with that message, so Galatians should not be interpreted as Paul warning us against doing that and saying that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. Paul was a servant of God, not His enemy, so he should not be interpret as speaking against following what God has commanded as though it were somehow a negative thing for followers of God to follow God. So the problem that Paul was addressing in Galatians was not that people were teaching Gentiles to follow God's Law, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become saved.

Romans 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

This verse directly contrasts a law of works with a a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, but while Paul said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's Law, so God's Law the law of faith, and our faith should uphold it. Likewise, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's Law, so it is of faith. So you should be careful not to mistake something that was only spoken against obeying man-made laws as being against obeying God Law.

Soyeong · May 16, 2019

HTacianas said:
You now have to go back and explain whose regulations prohibited "touching, tasting, and handling". Each of those are prohibitions of the Levitical laws. They have never been part of Christianity.

While it is true that God also gave laws in regard to what we should eat or touch, Paul was a servant of God and not His enemy, so we should be careful not to take something that was only spoken against following man-made laws as being against following God as though it were somehow a negative thing for followers of God to follow God. Again, in Colossians 2:22, it specifically describes verse 21 as being according to human precepts and traditions, so it should not be interpreted as speaking against following God. In Romans 3:31, Paul said that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's Law, but rather our faith upholds it, so our faith should also uphold God's Law, and we should not interpret Paul as seeking to do the opposite.

However, when God has commanded something and you nevertheless still think that Paul spoke against obeying God, then the bottom line is that we must obey God rather than man, so you should be quicker to disregard what you think Paul said than to disregard what God has commanded. Paul did not have more authority than God, so he had no authority to countermand Him or to tell anyone not to obey any of His Laws, nor did he do that, nor should we follow him instead of God even if he had tried to do that. However, it does not need to come down to that, because the reality is that Paul was a servant of God who never spoke against anyone obeying what He has commanded.

In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions about what we should eat and touch, so following those instructions is about testifying to the holiness of our God and bringing glory to His name.

Danthemailman · May 16, 2019

bcbsr said:
The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

I’ve heard certain people teach that we are saved by “these” works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not “those” works (works of the law) in order to get around certain passages of scripture, such as Romans 4:5,6; Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..)

However, that argument is problematic. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of faith/work of obedience,” yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now which good works could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18)

Paul clearly stated that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). He did not say saved through faith and works. In verse 10, Paul went on to say that we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Elsewhere, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Paul also said that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9). Paul NEVER said that we are saved by faith and works.

Athanasius377 · May 16, 2019

Gracia Singh said:
But again, Sir, Abrose clearly writes about works of the Law. And a recap of the Christian's relationship to the Law of Moses hundreds of years after wouldn't be unusual. Baptist pastors are still explaining this difference to congregations 2,019 years later, so clearly this is a topic which has been explained and ironed out often.

Even today, on CF, we can find Gentile Christians who believe that God wants them / asks them to keep kosher, rest on Saturdays, celebrate Yom Kippur and Shavuot, etc.

You are speaking of the ceremonial law that are not required to be kept by gentiles. That's not what Ambrose is speaking here. Let's put ceremonial law in place of law in the quote I gave and see if that works:

. . . Now the world becomes guilty before God by the Ceremonial law, in that all are made amenable to its prescripts, but no man is justified by its works. And since by the Ceremonial law comes the knowledge of sin, but not the remission of guilt, the Ceremonial law, which has made all sinners, would seem to have been injurious.

11. But when the Lord Jesus came, He forgave all men that sin which none could escape, and blotted out the handwriting against us by the shedding of His own Blood.* This then is the Apostle’s meaning; sin abounded by the Ceremonial law, but grace abounded by Jesus;* for after that the whole world became guilty, He took away the sin of the whole world, as John bore witness, saying: Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.* Wherefore let no man glory in works, for by his works no man shall be justified, for he that is just hath a free gift, for he is justified by the Bath. It is faith then which delivers by the blood of Christ, for Blessed is the man to whom sin is remitted, and pardon granted.*

Kenny'sID · May 16, 2019

bcbsr said:
For example, there are a number of examples of such in this thread based what people have posted. To those who aren't "salvation by works" Christians it's rather obvious.

Show me even one poster that depends solely on works for salvation.

Faith and works....look it up, it's biblical.

Guojing · May 16, 2019

Some churches preach faith = salvation
Other churches preach faith + Works = Salvation.

The other churches will tend to lie in between the 2. They will say faith = salvation but true faith must have works following, otherwise your faith is not true saving faith.

I always felt this argument is very circular. If A implies B, and A also implies C, does it also means you need A and C to get B? A is faith, B is salvation, C is works.

Yet, they will insist that its only A that implies B. It sounds very circular to me

Kenny'sID · May 17, 2019

Guojing said:
Some churches preach faith = salvation
Other churches preach faith + Works = Salvation.

The other churches will tend to lie in between the 2. They will say faith = salvation but true faith must have works following, otherwise your faith is not true saving faith.

I always felt this argument is very circular. If A implies B, and A also implies C, does it also means you need A and C to get B? A is faith, B is salvation, C is works.

Yet, they will insist that its only A that implies B. It sounds very circular to me

I hope the following is at least somewhat in line as as a reply to you, but if not, it needs to be said anyway.

I agree, it can sound that way, at least until we read scripture like the Sheep/Goats parable where people "think" they are on their way to heaven because they only "said" they had faith, while they were shown they did not, and were really on their way to hell just like many these days.

Some OSASr's claim faith, and that their works will follow, but even if works don't follow (and I'm positive many are into OSAS because they just don't want to do those works/act right overall, and they will not follow) faith will save them, while Jesus is clearly saying, "NO! claim what you want, (as in they did the easy stuff to make themselves appear to have faith) but in the end, you have no fruit, you didn't do as you should have, proving you don't have faith, now run along to hell.

Then there will be those that will say "They were never saved to begin with" and I assume they really mean , and if not, please correct me, but fact is, just like many these days, they though they were saved but they never put their faith to work, and even claimed they didn't have to. And yet others were saved to begin with, but they slacked off, and lost it.

Next they resort to, "we can never lose salvation" as one of their last few desperate measures to win the argument, but scripture shows time and time again, clearly, we can lose salvation, and one good way to do that is to be a slacker when it comes to giving to others when there is nothing immediate in it for us. Then they will even argue the very clear scripture that says we can lose salvation. It never ends, well, actually is does, and they often go away after the following occurs.

We come to expect the exact same arguments, but the end of the argument comes when they are questioned, and faith only people tell on themselves by very often not answering (if they do answer certain questions it's often with something very bizarre) in that they don't answer because they can see clearly their answer will expose the truth, and actually answering and exposing that truth will make OSAS/faith only fall flat of it's face, so they don't.

So all the reasoning it took to end in a choice not to answer, shows they knew the truth. I've seen that play out so often here, I have no doubt at all my reasoning on that is correct.

Guojing · May 17, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
I hope the following is at least somewhat in line as as a reply to you, but if not, it needs to be said anyway.

I agree, it can sound that way, at least until we read scripture like the Sheep/Goats parable where people "think" they are on their way to heaven because they only "said" they had faith, while they were shown they did not, and were really on their way to hell just like many these days.

Some OSASr's claim faith, and that their works will follow, but even if works don't follow (and I'm positive many are into OSAS because they just don't want to do those works/act right overall, and they will not follow) faith will save them, while Jesus is clearly saying, "NO! claim what you want, (as in they did the easy stuff to make themselves appear to have faith) but in the end, you have no fruit, you didn't do as you should have, proving you don't have faith, now run along to hell.

Then there will be those that will say "They were never saved to begin with" and I assume they really mean , and if not, please correct me, but fact is, just like many these days, they though they were saved but they never put their faith to work, and even claimed they didn't have to. And yet others were saved to begin with, but they slacked off, and lost it.

Next they resort to, "we can never lose salvation" as one of their last few desperate measures to win the argument, but scripture shows time and time again, clearly, we can lose salvation, and one good way to do that is to be a slacker when it comes to giving to others when there is nothing immediate in it for us. Then they will even argue the very clear scripture that says we can lose salvation. It never ends, well, actually is does, and they often go away after the following occurs.

We come to expect the exact same arguments, but the end of the argument comes when they are questioned, and faith only people tell on themselves by very often not answering (if they do answer certain questions it's often with something very bizarre) in that they don't answer because they can see clearly their answer will expose the truth, and actually answering and exposing that truth will make OSAS/faith only fall flat of it's face, so they don't.

So all the reasoning it took to end in a choice not to answer, shows they knew the truth. I've seen that play out so often here, I have no doubt at all my reasoning on that is correct.

So you belong to the Faith + Works = Salvation kind of thinking?

bcbsr · May 17, 2019

Guojing said:
Some churches preach faith = salvation
Other churches preach faith + Works = Salvation.

The other churches will tend to lie in between the 2. They will say faith = salvation but true faith must have works following, otherwise your faith is not true saving faith.

I always felt this argument is very circular. If A implies B, and A also implies C, does it also means you need A and C to get B? A is faith, B is salvation, C is works.

Yet, they will insist that its only A that implies B. It sounds very circular to me

Salvation is by trusting in Christ rather than trusting that one's work. "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

Upon coming to faith in Christ (rather than faith in works) a person is saved. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9 It's finalized and the person is eternally secure as if he had already passed from death to life.. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Faith in works Christians view salvation as not occurring is this life, but rather than after they die God weight their works in the balance to see if they measured up and are found worthy of eternal life based upon their performance. The Bible calls that concept "Justification by the law" or Justification by the works of the law".

"No one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Rom 3:20-24

Those who put their faith in their works to save them are disqualified from being saved. Paul wrote in Romans 10:1-5 "Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18) As I pointed out, "these things" which Paul refers to are the same kinds of things that faith-in-works Christians, like "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev 19:18), being in the very list of items of "these things".

Circular reasoning would apply to a subset of faith in works Christians who say that you're saved by faith alone, but you have to do works to maintain your salvation status, in which case, logically, you're not actually saved until after you die and your works weighed in the balance. They have no rational explanation for the fact that verses like Eph 2:8 say "have been saved", using a past tense, nor the fact that Jesus speaks of such a person have already past from death to life, or verses like 1John 5:11,12 among others which speaks of a person already having eternal life.

A person puts their faith in whatever they see salvation being contingent upon. Those who view salvation being contingent upon their performance, they put their faith in their performance to save them. Those who put their faith in Christ to save them can be confident, secure in the fact that it is not dependent upon them but rather in Christ.

Those who claim to have both faith in Christ and faith in works have some misconstrued idea that Christ will assist them to be saved by their works, but as their salvation is conditioned upon their works they put their faith in themselves and the works they decided to do in order to be saved.

Works are an effect and not a cause of a person's salvation. This in contrast to the Catholic Canon law that says that works are not an effect (in fact says anathema to anyone like myself who claims they are), but rather they are a cause. They have the same mindset as the Israelites who tried to be saved by complying with God's commands.

Norbert L · May 17, 2019

bcbsr said:
The Works of the Law

Typically "Salvation by Works" Christians' spin on the verses where Paul speaks about salvation by faith apart from works is that they interpret "works" to only mean certain works - namely ceremonial works under the Law of Moses, but that living up to works such as not sinning, living up to the 10 commandments, all the moral laws are all conditions for salvation.

But notice what laws Paul references when he speaks of the righteousness of the law in contrast to the righteousness which is by faith.

Romans 10:4-6 Christ is the fulfillment{or, completion, or end} of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes about the righteousness of the law,"The one who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5) But the righteousness which is of faith says this ..."

The righteousness of the law involves doing the very things that "Faith-in-Works" Christians insist a person must do to be saved. For if we go back to the context of Lev 18:5 which Paul references we find such things as not committing sexual immorality, be holy, respect your parents, observe the Sabbath, do not make idols, do not steal, do not lie, do not swear falsely, do not pervert justice, do not slander, do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. To name a few.

Thus Paul is saying that making salvation out to be contingent upon such things as obeying the ten commands, loving your neighbor as yourself, and the like is contrary to the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice also how Paul speaks of the works of the law in contrast to faith as two different things.

Rom 9:31,32 Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.

Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Have you read this article about the historical context during the time Paul wrote these letters?

The Dead Sea Scrolls: Paul and the Works of the Law

Basically what works of the law meant to Paul and his Christian audience does not necessarily mean what we think it means today. The Bible was written for us, it was not written to us.

Kenny'sID · May 17, 2019

Guojing said:
So you belong to the Faith + Works = Salvation kind of thinking?

Faith is works, or it's not just "saying" I have faith. But however you chose to put it, yes...you?

Kenny'sID · May 17, 2019

bcbsr said:
Works are an effect and not a cause of a person's salvation.

Some here are saying even if works aren't an effect they are still saved because nothing is required but faith. So, since you to say you are saved by faith only, do you agree works are not a must?

bcbsr · May 17, 2019

Norbert L said:
Have you read this article about the historical context during the time Paul wrote these letters?

The Dead Sea Scrolls: Paul and the Works of the Law

Basically what works of the law meant to Paul and his Christian audience does not necessarily mean what we think it means today. The Bible was written for us, it was not written to us.

That's the Catholics opinion. If you were to interpret Paul in light of what Paul actually said, rather than interpreting Paul in light of Catholic dogma, you will find the Catholic dogma doesn't hold up.

The article you mentioned speaks of the Catholic opinion concerning the phrase "works of the law" that it only applies to ceremonial aspects of the Law of Moses. I've already disproven that point in this thread. Interesting how faith-in-works Christians have yet to speak to the proofs I gave.

How does Paul define "works of the law"? He uses it in the context of Lev 18:5 when he says in Galatians 3:10-12, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5) and again he references Lev 18:5 in Romans 10 "Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."" (Lev 18:5)

So Paul is saying if people view salvation as contingent up "theses things", they oppose the gospel Paul preaches. What are these things referring to in Leviticus. Lev 1:5 is followed by a long list, which includes "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself." Lev 19:18 Sounds like a "moral law" to me, and in fact the list of "these things" is almost exclusively "moral laws".

Therefore the faith in works position of Catholicism and other such sects as hold to the same is the very position that Paul was opposing.

Danthemailman · May 17, 2019

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

bcbsr · May 17, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Faith is works

No, faith is an attitude. Works are things that you do. Attitudes are like "intention", "faith", "Hope", "trust". They're a person's disposition. Paul doesn't classify those as "works". Consider Rom 4:4,5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

If faith is works, as you say, then you end up with "However, to the man who does not work but works God who justifies the wicked, his work is credited as righteousness."

I guess that's how faith-in-works Christians read the Bible.

bcbsr · May 17, 2019

Kenny'sID said:
Some here are saying even if works aren't an effect they are still saved because nothing is required but faith. So, since you to say you are saved by faith only, do you agree works are not a must?

A "must" for what? A "must" in order to be saved? Or do you mean a "must" to identify those who have already been saved by faith apart from works?

Kenny'sID · May 17, 2019

bcbsr said:
No, faith is an attitude. Works are things that you do. Attitudes are like "intention", "faith", "Hope", "trust". They're a person's disposition. Paul doesn't classify those as "works". Consider Rom 4:4,5 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but believes God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

If faith is works, as you say, then you end up with "However, to the man who does not work but works God who justifies the wicked, his work is credited as righteousness."

I guess that's how faith-in-works Christians read the Bible.

Disagree...simply.

Kenny'sID · May 17, 2019

bcbsr said:
A "must" for what? A "must" in order to be saved? Or do you mean a "must" to identify those who have already been saved by faith apart from works?

I used the term saved right in that sentence, so in context, "saved". Here is the question again, in case there is still confusion...what say you?

Kenny'sID said:
So, since you to say you are saved by faith only, do you agree works are not a must?

A "must" in order to be saved.

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