Alabama's Restrictive Abortion Law: Rape and Incest Discussion

Davidnic said:

Of course. Roe has allowed the death of millions of Innocents. So if someone wants to restrict abortion and knows the law will be challenged, you design it to survive by taking out the precedent.

That's politics.

Click to expand...

A big challenge for both the State of Alabama and the plantiffs (ACLU) and Planned Parenthood) is the way judges ruled abortion is legal until the start of the third trimester in 1973.

ChristianForCats said:

No comaprison. Abraham Lincoln ended slavery, not the SCOTUS.

Click to expand...

No the shedding of American blood did that.

redleghunter said:

No the shedding of American blood did that.

Click to expand...

Guess who commanded all of that innocent blood to be shed?
The man who reunited America.

ChristianForCats said:

Guess who commanded all of that innocent blood to be shed?
The man who reunited America.

Click to expand...

US Grant.

I am definitely pro-life. I had a son that was born in 2019 that was born with a rare terminal illness that we did not know about until after he was born. Had we have known that he had a terminal disease, would we have had an abortion?... Absolutely not! Even with a terminal illness, he touched more lives and had such profound impact on others that God was glorified through his brokenness. ANY child that is conceived, regardless of the circumstances, has value that in my opinion is more valuable that 9 months of misery of a mother carrying a child from rape or incest. As Christians, our job is to be there to support the mother who was victimized and help her to cope. Being pro-life, you also have to be pro adoption. I am in fact, the impact that our son had on our lives has led us to adopt and we are currently in the process. Once a child has been born, then put it up for adoption. The birth mother never has to see it again. Regardless a life is a life trying to put the mother over the child is still saying that one life is more important than another. I saw a meme one time that really struck home with me.. it was of someone asking God why there was no cure for cancer and other diseases and God's reply to the asker was..."you aborted them" God can always bring good things from tragic situations. Furthermore, when the mother that was raped or has an incestuous conception, makes the decision to abort the child, she is in essence elevating herself to the status of god because she is taking the life/death of the child into her own hands.

ChristianForCats said:

A big challenge for both the State of Alabama and the plantiffs (ACLU) and Planned Parenthood) is the way judges ruled abortion is legal until the start of the third trimester in 1973.

Click to expand...

Except last week they showed that stare decisis is not going to necessarily mean much.

redleghunter said:

Yes and the child is never to suffer the sentence of the father.

Click to expand...

Most of the arguments for abortion mislocate the locus of the problem and problematise being pregnant. The real locus are things like poverty, criminal acts etc. Those are the issues that need addressed.

Robert6671 said:

Yeah your talking alright and If I was a woman who was raped and found myself pregnant I would tell the governor and every Christian who thinks they have the right to enforce there religious moral beliefs onto me to stick it and go to a state were its legal. You see restrictive abortion laws do not stop abortions, one of two things happens, the woman goes to a different state or country, or if she can not afford it she goes to a back alley butcher

Click to expand...

If you were raped, you would get the morning after pill as soon as possible and therefore not get pregnant. I looked it up and it is within the first 3 days. After 5 it may not be as effective. But why wouldn't that be the first thing you do after being taken to the hospital and checked over. There is absolutely no reason that a rape victim would not get the morning after pill.
Sin will always exist. Having abortion legal is an affront to God who is the author and creator of every life. The bible says that He knit the child in the womb, and that He knew us BEFORE He formed us in the womb. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
Also, we cannot make things legal for the sole reason that people will try and harm themselves illegally. In 2019 there is just no reason that a person cannot prevent pregnancy.

If something is legal, that means it is safe and not harmful. Slavery was legal and was very profitable for those who were making the money. Slaves were their property and people were very angry about people telling them what to do with their property. If you don't like slavery, well then don't own one. Do you think people should still have the choice to own slaves? Mothers are temporary caregivers. They are not the owners of the life inside them. You may not think it is fair, but your rights end when it harms another life. So just as slavery was defeated, so abortion needs to be defeated. People are not property.

Curious to know if everyone here believes that each person has a soul. The soul is the part of us that is eternal.

When does God give someone their soul ? Is there at any point they do not have a soul ?

My point is that the unborn future adult in the womb has a soul. God gave him or her that soul.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. I fear the Lord and trust that even though His ways may seem impossible, that He is Lord of all and that I can trust Him.

dms1972 said:

Most of the arguments for abortion mislocate the locus of the problem and problematise being pregnant. The real locus are things like poverty, criminal acts etc. Those are the issues that need addressed.

Click to expand...

These problems can ALL occur after the child is born as well. The father could turn out to be the most horrendous and violent of all men. They could become homeless, have zero money...many possibilities.

Davidnic said:

US kept the underpinnings of British common law and jurisprudence which included fetal rights since 1751. You have to go to the 1970s until that wasn't the case.

Click to expand...

And British Common Law allowed an abortion until the time of quickening, about the first trimester

Servant of Yeshua said:

If you were raped, you would get the morning after pill as soon as possible and therefore not get pregnant. I looked it up and it is within the first 3 days. After 5 it may not be as effective. But why wouldn't that be the first thing you do after being taken to the hospital and checked over. There is absolutely no reason that a rape victim would not get the morning after pill.
Sin will always exist. Having abortion legal is an affront to God who is the author and creator of every life. The bible says that He knit the child in the womb, and that He knew us BEFORE He formed us in the womb. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.
Also, we cannot make things legal for the sole reason that people will try and harm themselves illegally. In 2019 there is just no reason that a person cannot prevent pregnancy.

If something is legal, that means it is safe and not harmful. Slavery was legal and was very profitable for those who were making the money. Slaves were their property and people were very angry about people telling them what to do with their property. If you don't like slavery, well then don't own one. Do you think people should still have the choice to own slaves? Mothers are temporary caregivers. They are not the owners of the life inside them. You may not think it is fair, but your rights end when it harms another life. So just as slavery was defeated, so abortion needs to be defeated. People are not property.

Click to expand...

Actually according to the bible there is nothing wrong with slavery....the old testament has laws on it and the new one speaks about it as if it is a normal way of life. The old testament has know problem with mass genocide of entire races of people men woman and CHILDREN!!!! Oh an the bible does not see the fetus as a living human being.

Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

Exodus 21:22
According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

So the bible does not see a fetus as a human being. YOU!!! and other Christians do.

You want to argue scripture with me I can go all day long...restrictive abortion laws are based on personal beliefs not the bible.

Archivist said:

And British Common Law allowed an abortion until the time of quickening, about the first trimester

Click to expand...

Yep I'm not holding it up is a perfect law or model. Just that in the context of where the discussion was in the thread... Fetal rights did historically exist in the United States, contrary to the assertion that was made.

That was an answer to the assertion that historically in American law the fetus did not have the right to not be killed.

It's actually part of the pretty fascinating and sometimes convoluted structure of things often related to inheritance rights.

But the claim was that people needed a history lesson if they thought the fetus ever had rights in the United States. Where up until the late 60s early 70s it wasn't even really questioned that the fetus had rights.

Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

Exodus 21:22
According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

So the bible does not see a fetus as a human being.

Robert6671 said:

Exodus 21:22
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

The bible orders the death penalty for murder of a human being, but not for the expulsion of a fetus.

Exodus 21:22
According to the bible, life begins at birth--when a baby draws its first breath. The bible defines life as "breath" in several significant passages, including the story of Adam's creation in Genesis 2:7, when God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Jewish law traditionally considers that personhood begins at birth.

So the bible does not see a fetus as a human being.

Click to expand...

And our Jewish friends will tell you that life begins with the first breath.

SPF said:

Your interpretation of Exodus 21 has been addressed ad nauseam, and your opinion is incorrect.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The passage is saying that if the pregnant woman gives birth to a living child and the child does not die, then the man will be punished. But, if the woman gives birth and the child dies as a result, then the man will pay life for life. If you look at the Hebrew you'll find that this is the correct interpretation.

And I have to wonder if people who try to use the story of Adam's creation actually take the time to even read the passage. First off, Adam is a unique, one off creation and is not the standard for how human's come into existence. It is a special circumstance, not a standard.

Secondly, absolutely nowhere in the passage does it say that Adam came to life when HE took his first breath:

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The picture here is that God creates a body. God, Himself, then breathes life into Adam, and then Adam came to life. Meaning, Adam probably came to life before he actually took his first breath if we're actually picturing what this looked like.

I wonder then, if this is your position, are you of the mindset that it would be morally acceptable for a woman to have an abortion at any time during the pregnancy, so long as the child has not yet taken a breath of fresh air?

Click to expand...

No...I have seen a fetus at 12 weeks...that is a human being. But that aside the bible does consider the fetus a living being. Now I do not believe in abortion for convenience. There are condoms and birth control or better yet just do not have sex if you do not want kids. But that is my personal belief I do not have the right to enforce that belief onto another. You want biblical law...prostitutes are to be killed, adultery is punishable by death, slavery is acceptable in the bible and everyone today thinks it is evil...but the bible does not. And you want to argue scripture..which translation do you want to argue. Many Christians pick and chose what parts of the bible they like and ignore the rest. And even Jesus says he did not come to abolish the law so the argument that Jesus's birth life and death and resurrection negated the law does not hold water. The point I am trying to make is in the united states of america church and state are to be separate...and it is freedom of religion not freedom of Christianity. If Christian politicians could get away with it anyone who was a not a christian would second hand citizen because many Christians have the attitude of if your not like me you do not count...its also why Christianity and many religions are losing more followers every year. People tired of the hate and bigotry that always follows with any organized religion. The greatest atrocities in history were cause by religion. What is truly sad is I know so many good Christians and its the jerks that we all here about.

SPF said:

Your interpretation of Exodus 21 has been addressed ad nauseam, and your opinion is incorrect.

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

The passage is saying that if the pregnant woman gives birth to a living child and the child does not die, then the man will be punished. But, if the woman gives birth and the child dies as a result, then the man will pay life for life. If you look at the Hebrew you'll find that this is the correct interpretation.

And I have to wonder if people who try to use the story of Adam's creation actually take the time to even read the passage. First off, Adam is a unique, one off creation and is not the standard for how human's come into existence. It is a special circumstance, not a standard.

Secondly, absolutely nowhere in the passage does it say that Adam came to life when HE took his first breath:

Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The picture here is that God creates a body. God, Himself, then breathes life into Adam, and then Adam came to life. Meaning, Adam probably came to life before he actually took his first breath if we're actually picturing what this looked like.

I wonder then, if this is your position, are you of the mindset that it would be morally acceptable for a woman to have an abortion at any time during the pregnancy, so long as the child has not yet taken a breath of fresh air?

Click to expand...

But the thread is about the Alabama abortion law. The US is not a Christian nation, so it really doesn’t matter what the Bible does or does not say on the matter.

I believe abortion is wrong. If a mother is not able to take care of the child after giving birth to him or her adoption may be an option, though personally I think it would be important to be prayerful and cautious in choosing where to place a child for adoption.

I don't see how it makes sense for a mother to not want a child due to their gender or potential disability or illness of the child. I believe it is God who created a child's gender and allowed the possibility of potential disability of a child (I think also think it is possible a child may be born with or acquire disability even if genetic testing does not show anything). Also, I believe a child's inherent worth is in no way less because of his or her gender or the presence or absence of disability. Personally I think while they would probably not hope for it, that parents should be emotionally prepared for anything a child may go through, including their child having extremely severe disabilities. I do believe God can heal.

Rape is a tragic and utterly immoral act. I have never been raped, so I can't claim to know the traumatic effects that may result from rape. While rape is a reprehensible and terrible act and nothing can justify rape, I personally do not think that the fact that a child is conceived through rape justifies abortion. While I definitely do not hope for such evil to happen to me, if I conceived a child through someone's rape while I recognise rape is a reprehensible and extremely immoral act I would hope that I find the strength from God to carry the child to term.

If all women were against killing an unborn child, then government laws prohibiting abortion would not be necessary other than to stop others forcing abortions on women.