Honest Exegeting of Romans 9

Grip Docility · May 13, 2019

dqhall said:
Some scholars thought Paul wrote Romans from Corinth before his missionary journey to Jerusalem with alms for the poor Jewish believers there. Christian Jews have been called Messianic Jews in more recent times. These were some of Paul's own people.

Paul knew the Orthodox Jews might make trouble for him. It seems he almost considered compromising and becoming more obedient to their law. In the end he insisted that Jesus is the way to salvation ... not the Torah in its entirety.

Jesus taught murder is wrong. There are laws in the Torah against murder, yet the story of Exodus showed the execution of someone for picking up sticks on Shabaht/Saturday Sabbath as righteousness under their law.

Paul was working for a better master. Remember Jesus taught, "No man can serve two masters."

This is where I’ll compile an Intro... thanks to the excellent suggestion of Dqhall

I’m whipping out my Trusty Holman Christian Standard Bible (Study Bible) for this Introduction to Paul’s Epistle of Romans...

~History of Rome... 269 BC - 80 AD~

269 BC ... The Romans begin minting their own coins

85 BC ... The Romans develop the hypocaust, a central heating system used in large villas and public baths.

27 BC - 14 AD ... Octavian (Augustus). Rome’s first emperor

March 15, 44 BC ... Julius Caesar is assassinated

5 BC ... The Birth of Jesus of Nazareth

14 AD - 37 AD... Tiberius Caesar’s Reign

33 AD... Jesus’ trials, crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension

October 34 AD... Saul’s conversion on the Damascus Road

57 AD... Paul’s letter to the church at Rome written in Corinth

64 AD... Nero blames Christians for the great fire in Rome

70AD... Destruction of Herod’s Temple

70AD - 80AD Roman Coliseum under construction

~Circumstances of Writing~

Paul wrote this letter while he was in Corinth, and on his way to Jerusalem in the Spring of 57 AD to Deliver an Offering from the Gentile Churches to poor Jewish Christians. (Acts 20:3 ; Romans 15:25-29)

~Background~

Rome was the primary destination of this Epistle, but some Manuscripts lack the phrase “in Rome” (Romans 1:7), making a strong case that Paul intended this Epistle to be sent to other churches.

~Message And Purpose~

Paul was addressing the Core Message of Christianity and authoring the Epistle in the presence of horrendous Christian persecution.

Tension between the Jews and the Christians was mounting. Paul was hoping to gain funding for his upcoming Mission to the West... (Romans 15:23-29)

~Biblical Contribution~

To be continued...

jgr · May 14, 2019

Grip Docility said:
IMO, Paul specifies that the promises of God are irrevocable and the context of Romans 11:25-36, which is unmistakable has to do with a future time?

Most certainly; they are irrevocable, and the Scriptures I cited identify those to whom they are irrevocable. That irrevocability began 2,000 years ago when the Deliverer out of Zion arose from the dead, and it will continue into the future until He returns.

Grip Docility said:
And what of this verse? Romans 5:10

Does God grant salvation to His enemies who reject Him?

Grip Docility said:
What of Romans 9:20-21 ?

Does God dishonor the faithful and obedient?
Does God honor the unfaithful and disobedient?

Grip Docility said:
Is this entire book/Epistle of Romans not about God turning the hearts of the Godless?

Does God turn the hearts of the godless who reject Him?

Grip Docility said:
Romans 4:4-5

Romans 4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The faith part of faith and obedience.

Grip Docility · May 14, 2019

jgr said:
Most certainly; they are irrevocable, and the Scriptures I cited identify those to whom they are irrevocable. That irrevocability began 2,000 years ago when the Deliverer out of Zion arose from the dead, and it will continue into the future until He returns.

Does God grant salvation to His enemies who reject Him?

Does God dishonor the faithful and obedient?
Does God honor the unfaithful and disobedient?

Does God turn the hearts of the godless who reject Him?

Romans 4
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The faith part of faith and obedience.

You seemed to miss the hope for the Hopeless part.

Exegete Romans 11 out, verse by verse, in order, grammatically, with full Romans 9, 10 and 11 context and you will see that Paul, who is speaking to Gentiles is talking about Mercy that is a mystery!

jgr · May 14, 2019

Grip Docility said:
You seemed to miss the hope for the Hopeless part.

Exegete Romans 11 out, verse by verse, in order, grammatically, with full Romans 9, 10 and 11 context and you will see that Paul, who is speaking to Gentiles is talking about Mercy that is a mystery!

The hopeless do not find hope until they receive the Source of that hope.

Romans 9-11 is indisputable in conveying that message.

Grip Docility · May 14, 2019

jgr said:
The hopeless do not find hope until they receive the Source of that hope.

Romans 9-11 is indisputable in conveying that message.

And, I agree. But you’re assuming the Enemy Dead, “Love your enemies”, won’t be given an opportunity upon Resurrection.

Do you dispute the dead outside of Christ, will be raised?

We both agree the Dead BOC are already with Christ and resurrection for them means to be given their Promised Resurrection bodies... (Most Likely)... so that leaves the Dead, Outside of Christ.

The Bible is clear they will be risen to Judgment... Not straight condemnation.

Why is this biblical fact so difficult to apply for you? They have a chance to accept Jesus in the future.

Again, Are you waiting for a great Flambee?

You don’t see that the Enemy of the Gospel Jews failed to seek out God’s mercy in their studies?

Grip Docility · May 14, 2019

Delete, repost

jgr · May 14, 2019

Grip Docility said:
And, I agree. But you’re assuming the Enemy Dead, “Love your enemies”, won’t be given an opportunity upon Resurrection.

Do you dispute the dead outside of Christ, will be raised?

We both agree the Dead BOC are already with Christ and resurrection for them means to be given their Promised Resurrection bodies... (Most Likely)... so that leaves the Dead, Outside of Christ.

The Bible is clear they will be risen to Judgment... Not straight condemnation.

Why is this biblical fact so difficult to apply for you? They have a chance to accept Jesus in the future.

Again, Are you waiting for a great Flambee?

You don’t see that the Enemy of the Gospel Jews failed to seek out God’s mercy in their studies?

Judas and Caiaphas will have a chance to accept Jesus in the future?

Grip Docility · May 14, 2019

jgr said:
Judas and Caiaphas will have a chance to accept Jesus in the future?

Matthew 26:24 answers your Judas question

The only specific entities judged at this time are found here... (Jude 1:6 ; Matthew 25:41 and John 16:11)

The rest is unwritten.

For God says... (Romans 9:15) (Matthew 9:13) ... and above all... there is this...

Matthew 20:1-13 <~ Same Pay... came in at different times.

jgr · May 15, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Matthew 26:24 answers your Judas question

The only specific entities judged at this time are found here... (Jude 1:6 ; Matthew 25:41 and John 16:11)

The rest is unwritten.

For God says... (Romans 9:15) (Matthew 9:13) ... and above all... there is this...

Matthew 20:1-13 <~ Same Pay... came in at different times.

Grip Docility said:
Matthew 26:24 answers your Judas question

Caiaphas as the instigator was even more culpable than Judas. Will he get a second chance?
What about all of the Jews who were part of the conspiracy? Will they get a second chance?
What about all of the OT Israelites whom God slew because of rebellion? Will they get a second chance?
What about those without Abraham's DNA? Will they get a second chance?

Grip Docility · May 15, 2019

jgr said:
Caiaphas as the instigator was even more culpable than Judas. Will he get a second chance?

The Only bible verse I know that gives Him some hope, because of it’s wording... (Acts 9:4) Saul had to be physically and audibly confronted by God to “change his mind.” Saul was Blinded, Physically and only given sight back when he was told this... (Acts 9:16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name. 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands onV Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit. 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.)

jgr said:
What about all of the Jews who were part of the conspiracy? Will they get a second chance?

Romans 10:19-21 leads Romans 11

I will say, because they aren’t scripturally found judged yet... the answer is yes. Though, they rejected Him to His Face once, thus, it seems they may do it again.

jgr said:
What about all of the OT Israelites whom God slew because of rebellion? Will they get a second chance?

I believe this is a picture of the close of time. Those that see Jesus physically and are made aware by end time events, Who He is, will either rebel or do this... (Joel 2:12-32)

jgr said:
What about those without Abraham's DNA? Will they get a second chance?

Romans 11:12 most certainly indicates yes.

Final Judgment will be incontestably perfect and without question. In the end, the genuinely wicked and hateful to God, Love and humanity, will be condemned.

The deceived will be given chance to repent, though the deceivers will be held to enormously difficult standards.

Grip Docility · May 16, 2019

Time to spell out a solid overview...

* Paul clearly and methodically spells out 3 groups, with careful precision.

1) Genetic / National Israel that have rejected Christ - Traced through lineage and absence of faith

2) Genetic / National Israel that have accepted Christ- Traced through Lineage and Faith

3) The Body of Gentiles that Have Accepted Christ- Traced through Faith

* Paul specifically reserves the word Israel, for Israel

* Paul connects Believers in Christ to a new Lineage, that is Traced through Isaac

* Paul assures the Gentiles that they have an important place in God’s Love story.

* Paul maintains an intense focus on his Unbelieving Kinsmen.

* Paul exalts God’s mercy and speaks twice of the desire to trade places with the Unbelieving Jews, through Moses and himself.

* Paul reminds us that God is the final authority in all things and that His mercy will be far more Merciful and Accurate than any human could ever speak of.

parousia70 · May 16, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Unless you are a full Preterist, I would suspect that Jesus saying the Covenant He Fulfilled not passing away until heaven and earth pass away, would be a theological challenge to you to obviously retain that the Old And New Covenant don’t blend in the smallest way, yet that the new and old covenant remain of theological purpose until the New Heaven and New Earth are brought forth by God.

If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Honestly, the hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth"

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me

(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's judgments upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase as it was used by Jesus and the writer of Hebrews, we can see that Jesus didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

Full Preterism Not Required.

Grip Docility · May 16, 2019

parousia70 said:
If Honesty is truly valued in this study, we should recognize and affirm that one does not have to be a Full Preterist to understand the passing away of the old covenant "Heaven and Earth" has already taken place for us:

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

Honestly, the hebrew phrase "heavens and earth" is very often symbolic in scripture and has various uses in both the N.T. and O.T. For example, Jesus said we would know "heavens and earth" had passed when the Law of Moses had been removed (Matthew 5:17-19), which was at AD 70. That's why Mark 13:1-31 about the destruction of the Temple also ties in the removal of "heaven and earth" (Mk 13:31) where only Christ's teaching remains after the Temple is gone. The writer of Hebrews confirms this use of "heavens and earth" by saying that the switch over of the Old Covenant system to the New Covenant System was through and by the shaking of "heavens and earth" (Hebrews 12:18-28).

COMMON OLD TESTAMENT USES OF "HEAVEN AND EARTH"

(1) The witness to the Covenant between Jehovah and Israel was "Heaven and Earth"

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:

Leviticus 26:19
And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

Psalms 50:4
He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people.

Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me

(2) Israel's institution as a Nation under Moses and Joshua was the planting of Heavens and Earth

Isaiah 51:15-16
For I am Yahweh your God, who stirs up the sea, so that the waves of it roar: Yahweh of Hosts is his name. I have put my words in your mouth, and have covered you in the shadow of my hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and tell Zion, You are my people.

Deuteronomy 31:28
Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

(3) The "shaking/removal of Heavens and Earth" describes any of Jehovah's judgments upon nations and individuals

Against Ancient Babylon
Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 51:48
Then the heaven and the earth, and all that [is] therein, shall sing for Babylon: for the spoilers shall come unto her from the north, saith the LORD

Against King Saul
Psalms 18:7-10
Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills removed and were shaken, because he was wroth ... He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet. And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

Against Persia during Zerubbabel's Day
Haggai 2:21
Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth

So, getting back to the use of the phrase as it was used by Jesus and the writer of Hebrews, we can see that Jesus didn't mean the physical planet -- rather, it meant the passing away of the Old Covenant World and the planting of the New Covenant Kingdom.

Full Preterism Not Required.

Is that the same Spurgeon that said this?

Calvinism IS the Gospel, and nothing else."

(C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography, Vol. I: The Early Years)

"The longer I live, the clearer does it appear that John Calvin's system is the nearest to perfection."

(The Forgotten Spurgeon,by Iain Murray)

"Among all those who have been born of women, there has not risen a greater than John Calvin."

(C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography, Vol. II: The Full Harvest)

“Not a fan...” - Grip Docility, Post 113, Romans 9 thread

Infact, Calvinism depends on stripping proper use of Israel, as Paul distinguishes, Clearly to support the fallacious doctrine of Predestination... Per Canons of Dort definitions.

Canons of Dort

Preterism is a way of removing Israel from its rightful place in Prophecy, to reprobate National Israel and all of it’s deceived descendants.

Romans 9:1-6 makes it clear they exist.

parousia70 · May 17, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Is that the same Spurgeon that said this?

Calvinism IS the Gospel, and nothing else."
......
(C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography, Vol. II: The Full Harvest)

“Not a fan...” - Grip Docility, Post 113, Romans 9 thread

So What?
All of that is irrelevant to my point.
His comment I posted wholly disproves your contention that Full Preterism is required in order to believe the Heavens and Earth have passed.

Regardless of any of what you believe are his theological faults, He was not a Full preterist, by any measure.

Grip Docility · May 17, 2019

parousia70 said:
So What?
All of that is irrelevant to my point.
His comment I posted wholly disproves your contention that Full Preterism is required in order to believe the Heavens and Earth have passed.

Regardless of any of what you believe are his theological faults, He was not a Full preterist, by any measure.

We agree to disagree.

I genuinely reject Spurgeons writings, because he exalts a sinful man Above God in his theology.

Had he never written that, I might be fine. But, he did.

Honest Exegeting of Romans 9

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