Signs and Wonders, where are they today?

Strong in Him said:

No it's not. I said a) that God can heal today, b) that he healed me from M.E and c) that he that he can work in whatever way he chooses.
My point is that with the resurrection, the whole of Scripture and 2000 years of Christian witness, we should not need signs and wonders to confirm the Gospel or produce faith.

I also believe that God's signs and wonders are all around us; the beauty of creation and the wonder or new physical, and spiritual, life. But he most certainly can, and does, heal today.

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I remember the most awesome miracle I have ever seen. It was ten years ago, a young Chinese man I and others had many discussions with. An ardent atheist he used to rant and rave about how Christianity was not true. He used to rant 'why does the god do this, why does the god do that'. One time I noted that he had dropped 'the god' and was now referring to 'God'. The Holy Spirit was working on him! Then one time at a meeting I saw him on his knees weeping and giving his life to Christ. He's a pastor in China now. The signs are all around us! God is still working today! His ways are not our ways, as high as the heavens are from the earth so high are his purposes from ours, we cannot comprehend what the plans of the Lord are. As you say, the beauty of creation and new spiritual life!

These days I just try to get behind what the Lord is doing here. Too often was I in meetings where people prophesied things that did not come and thereby missing what the Lord was doing.

God Bless

RandyMcI said:

" we should not need signs and wonders to confirm the gospel" was what you wrote? Do you realize that you are over ruling the will of God with these words?

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If that's addressed to me; no I'm not.
Did you read my posts? I said that a) I believe in healing, b) that God can work in any way he chooses and c) the reason I say we shouldn't NEED signs and wonders to confirm the Gospel is that we have the Holy Spirit living in us and the whole of the word of God.
Does faith come by seeing, or by the word of God?

RandyMcI said:

See Mark16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

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That doesn't say that the Lord commands us to perform signs and wonders because no one will be able to believe without them. It is a summary of what did, or would, happen when the disciples went out to preach this new faith based on Jesus to unbelievers. Miracles and wonders were a sign that a) the disciples' words were true, b) God loved people and cared for them c) God was powerful and could heal.

RandyMcI said:

If the Lord feels the need for signs and wonders so as to perform them

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The Lord doesn't NEED signs and wonders. He uses them to get our attention and show his power, love and care. The Lord does not have NEED of anything.

RandyMcI said:

and you decide we should have no such need, who do we believe?

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I said we should have no such need for them BECAUSE we are living after the resurrection, and believe it and have the Holy Spirit living in us - these are the biggest miracles of all. We also have the written word of God, which reveals him to us, and the testimonies of thousands of Christians throughout the ages. If we never saw/received a miracle of healing in our lives, all that should be enough for us.

RandyMcI said:

If the christian world is led to believe that signs and wonders are not necessary or that they have finished then when this devil man with his false miracles appears they will suddenly follow him.

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I never said they weren't necessary nor that they had ceased.

In Scripture, signs and wonders didn't always bring people to faith or cause them to have, or keep, faith.
The plagues of Egypt didn't cause Pharaoh to worship God.
The parting of the Red Sea didn't stop the Israelites from grumbling and complaining that God had left them.
The miracle on Mt Carmel, 1 Kings 18, didn't cause the Israelites to stop worshipping other gods. They were later taken into exile for their unfaithfulness and their sins.
When Jesus performed miracles, some said he did it by the power of the devil, Mark 3:22.
When Jesus fed more than 5000 people with some bread and a couple of fish, the Pharisees asked him for a sign from heaven, John 6:30.
When he raised Lazarus from the dead, they wanted to kill Lazarus, and then Jesus, John 11:45-57.
If signs and wonders themselves always produced long lasting faith, none of these people would have been non believers - the exile wouldn't have happened and the Pharisees would have hailed Jesus as the Messiah.

There are people who do not believe that God healed me from M.E - they dismiss it as "coincidence", "luck" or "being in remission". If this miracle was able, on its own, to produce faith, there should be dozens more Christians now than there were before I testified to my healing.

RandyMcI said:

Did you ask 'why do we NEED to see'? No one said we need to see anything. You brought that whole idea up.

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The title of this thread is, signs and wonders; where are they? And in your first post you said that without the Lord confirming with signs following, what do we have? That suggests, to me, a need to see signs and wonders before people will believe, or that the Lord should always perform signs and wonders when the Gospel is preached.
I'm saying that our faith, and that of new believers, should not need to rest on signs and wonders.

Strong in Him said:

The title of this thread is, signs and wonders; where are they? And in your first post you said that without the Lord confirming with signs following, what do we have? That suggests, to me, a need to see signs and wonders before people will believe, or that the Lord should always perform signs and wonders when the Gospel is preached.
I'm saying that our faith, and that of new believers, should not need to rest on signs and wonders.

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Hello Strong in Him I hope all is well with you.

I was thinking on this issue. The Lord in the gospel talked of the Sign of Jonah, just as Jonah was three days in a huge fish so would Jesus be three days dead them come back to life again. When we preach the gospel, that Jesus died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that he was resurrected on the third day according to the scriptures and that all who believe in his name will too be transformed, or if deceased, resurrected in glory. This is awesome! As to the Historic Evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ I recommend 'Who Moved the Stone' by Frank Morrison.

The resurrection of the dead in my opinion pygmifies many of the 'signs and wonders' some churches often elbow it aside for. The gospel must be central, it contains the greatest sign of all. The empty tomb. It's impossible to separate the gospel from the supernatural because it's based on the most supernatural event in History. The Lord has already confirmed the gospel with the greatest sign ever.

If you were to count the number of threads here on financial miracles, angels, visions, tongues, gifts, revivals etc, then compare if to the amount on the resurrection of Christ I think it would be like 100:1. Have we lost sight of the core and focused instead on the periphery?

God Bless

lismore said:

Hello Strong in Him I hope all is well with you.

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Fine thanks; how are you?

lismore said:

I was thinking on this issue. The Lord in the gospel talked of the Sign of Jonah, just as Jonah was three days in a huge fish so would Jesus be three days dead them come back to life again. When we preach the gospel, that Jesus died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that he was resurrected on the third day according to the scriptures and that all who believe in his name will too be transformed, or if deceased, resurrected in glory. This is awesome! As to the Historic Evidences for the resurrection of Jesus Christ I recommend 'Who Moved the Stone' by Frank Morrison.

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Yes, that's a great book.

lismore said:

The resurrection of the dead in my opinion pygmifies many of the 'signs and wonders' some churches often elbow it aside for. The gospel must be central, it contains the greatest sign of all.

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Absolutely. We are living this side of the resurrection, and Pentecost.
We often talk about signs and wonders - meaning miracles of dramatic healing, words of knowledge etc - when we have the greatest sign and wonder of all; God's Son made flesh, died for us, raised again and now lives IN us.

lismore said:

If you were to count the number of threads here on financial miracles, angels, visions, tongues, gifts, revivals etc, then compare if to the amount on the resurrection of Christ I think it would be like 100:1. Have we lost sight of the core and focused instead on the periphery?

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That's a good point - very likely.
I must admit that sometimes, if someone says "signs and wonders" to me, I think of healing services, John Wimber, people getting out of wheelchairs, being given prophecies and words of knowledge etc.
Some say that we should look for, and expect, these - to the point that if your church doesn't have/do them on a regular basis, it may be in trouble. Others go to the other extreme and say that miracles, tongues and the gifts of the Spirit aren't needed, or around, at all. I don't agree with either extreme. I think it's amazing if they happen, and God can certainly do that, but we shouldn't need to look to, or rely on, them to produce or sustain our faith.
Our Gospel rests on the greatest wonder of all - the resurrection.

lismore said:

God Bless

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God bless you too.

Strong in Him said:

but I do not believe we should need confirmation of his word or displays of his miraculous power today, as they did then.

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As another has pointed out..this is just veiled cessationist thinking.
Im sorry but people today were not alive or there at the time of the book of acts and they Need confirmation of the power(authority) of the Good news of Jesus more today then ever before.
And they get it. Miracles are common place among those that go out and obey the great commission.
Healing is the easiest of the gifts to give.
Really a very simple thing .
Those the believe...they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover..
Very simple.
The Gospel is proven authoritive by signs and wonders which aid in conviction of sin which in turn aids in repentance which results in forgivness of sin and the person responding to God from a clean conscience and henceforth learning to now walk a new life in obedience to God.

Jesus said if you dont believecwhat i say then believe the miricals ...
Paul said to preach with the manifestation of the power..
Without the authority "following" those that believe then its just another theory being suggested
And some go along with the theory and they take on a theorhetic faith that is never an actual practice...
And they inevitably drift away to other theories because though hearing the theory it is not mingeld with faith and is ineffectual.

Because the Good news is the good news about the POWER of God to save and when it is preached without any demonstration of that power it is ireached withput authority...
They wondered at JESUS because he did not preach like the scribes and the Pharisees..but he spoke with Authority... What was the authority they spoke of? It was the plain FACT that he healed the sick and commanded devils and they obeyed him .

Alithis said:

As another has pointed out..this is just veiled cessationist thinking.

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No; cessationist thinking would be "gifts of the Spirit have ceased therefore no one can have them or do signs or wonders".
I haven't said that and I don't believe it.

Alithis said:

Im sorry but people today were not alive or there at the time of the book of acts and they Need confirmation of the power(authority) of the Goid news of Jesus more today then ever before.

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Many people receive confirmation of God's love and power when they respond to the Gospel, are born again, baptised in the Spirit and receive a new heart.
I only received a direct healing miracle in my life 10 years ago - I was born again and a Christian long before that.

Alithis said:

And they get it.

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Some do, some don't.
Many born again Christians have died from illness even though they were prayed for.

Alithis said:

Miricles are common place among those that go out and obey the great commission.

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Maybe in some places; maybe those people have the gifts of healing and miracles or maybe the Lord wants to do something in the unbeliever's life to let them know it is true and he is real. Not a problem.
But I also know many who preach the Good News and make disciples, and there are no signs and wonders - beyond that of a changed life and having God dwelling in them.
Some Christians may never do, or even see, signs and wonders or receive a miraculous healing. This does not invalidate their faith or make the preachers lesser people.

Strong in Him said:

No; cessationist thinking would be "gifts of the Spirit have ceased therefore no one can have them or do signs or wonders".
I haven't said that and I don't believe it.



Many people receive confirmation of God's love and power when they respond to the Gospel, are born again, baptised in the Spirit and receive a new heart.
I only received a direct healing miracle in my life 10 years ago - I was born again and a Christian long before that.



Some do, some don't.
Many born again Christians have died from illness even though they were prayed for.



Maybe in some places; maybe those people have the gifts of healing and miracles or maybe the Lord wants to do something in the unbeliever's life to let them know it is true and he is real. Not a problem.
But I also know many who preach the Good News and make disciples, and there are no signs and wonders - beyond that of a changed life and having God dwelling in them.
Some Christians may never do, or even see, signs and wonders or receive a miraculous healing. This does not invalidate their faith or make the preachers lesser people.

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Im only hearing theory..

Alithis said:

Im only hearing theory..

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So?

The fact is that I became a Christian, was born again, filled with the Spirit and became a child of God without having seen any healing miracles - signs and wonders.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who can say that.

So do we need to see signs and wonders before we have, or come to faith? No. And if you want Scripture to illustrate that point:
2 Corinthians 5:7.
Romans 10:17
John 20:29

If your own, personal, belief is that everyone who preaches the Gospel should be doing signs and wonders, and you're rebuking me for only posting theory, not evidence of practice - that's your belief and up to you.

I understand and believe that the reason so much of the Charismatic movement has faltered is because many Charismatics stopped at the Holy Spirit and the manifestations, and failed to move on to the next, and intended step in the restoration of the church. I believe they balled everything up into the Holy Spirit as if that were the be all and end all of God's plan for the end times. They reached the gifts and ministry gifts, became satisfied there, and did not proceed on. The plan was and is that we recognize the spirit of Christ in us with faith and love to be the better way to manifest and operating the gifts and the ministries. Essentially, in true love chapter form, they coveted the gifts and ministry gifts and were happy with that. But the love chapter says that love is the better way to bring the gifts and ministries into operation.
The Charismatic is and will evolve into the "Agapmatic" (or Agapematic). We should recognize that the object of manifestation is the spirit of Christ in us. That is the goal. That we unify and grow up together into the head which is Christ. The gifts and ministries are just a means to an end. It is not the end.

Didaskalos said:

I understand and believe that the reason so much of the Charismatic movement has faltered is because many Charismatics stopped at the Holy Spirit and the manifestations, and failed to move on to the next, and intended step in the restoration of the church. I believe they balled everything up into the Holy Spirit as if that were the be all and end all of God's plan for the end times. They reached the gifts and ministry gifts, became satisfied there, and did not proceed on. The plan was and is that we recognize the spirit of Christ in us with faith and love to be the better way to manifest and operating the gifts and the ministries. Essentially, in true love chapter form, they coveted the gifts and ministry gifts and were happy with that. But the love chapter says that love is the better way to bring the gifts and ministries into operation.
The Charismatic is and will evolve into the "Agapmatic" (or Agapematic). We should recognize that the object of manifestation is the spirit of Christ in us. That is the goal. That we unify and grow up together into the head which is Christ. The gifts and ministries are just a means to an end. It is not the end.

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For most i think they stopped at tongues...

Alithis said:

For most i think they stopped at tongues...

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Perhaps A.
I think they stopped at coveting the gifts and did not go on to the better way of getting the "best" gifts.
Love

1 Corinthians 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Didaskalos said:

Perhaps A.
I think they stopped at coveting the gifts and did not go on to the better way of getting the "best" gifts.
Love

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I think people are waylaid and distracted by an obsession with owning the gifts and they have completly forgotten that they are all tools to equip for the WORK of the Gospel.no one gets rewarded in heaven for having the attributes(gifts) of the Holy Spirit. But for thier " works of obedience " ,what they Did with the tools God gives us to Do his will....
There will be many tongue speakers weeping and gnashing teeth

Alithis said:

I think people are waylaid and distracted by an obsession with owning the gifts and they have completly forgotten that they are all tools to equip for the WORK of the Gospel.no one gets rewarded in heaven for having the attributes(gifts) of the Holy Spirit. But for thier " works of obedience " ,what they Did with the tools God gives us to Do his will....
There will be many tongue speakers weeping and gnashing teeth

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I think you are correct. Gifts are a means to an end. They are not the goal.

What I have seen and perhaps with hindsight is a mistaken strategy. In the 1980s-90s the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement, instead of energising the local church seemed to create Ghettoisation. Many people, especially younger ones were sucked from various local churches to a Charismatic church labelling the others as 'dead', thereby weakening all those local churches and creating emnity with them. Then the Charismatic church ran a programme of 'doof-doof' type music (as a former member described to me), Christian-lite sermons, personal words (which sometimes turned out to be wrong), dubious pastoral care, until splits came and the Church went pop like a balloon. As a result all churches in the locality weakened.

God Bless

The Charismatic movement had leaders who were jealous of their ministries and meetings.
The Charismatic movement had followers who were more than happy to sit in their pews and do nothing as the leaders did it all.
It is the plan of God that the entire body participate.

Didaskalos said:

The Charismatic movement had leaders who were jealous of their ministries and meetings.
The Charismatic movement had followers who were more than happy to sit in their pews and do nothing as the leaders did it all.
It is the plan of God that the entire body participate.

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Hello Didaskalos. Yes, I agree with your statement. More and more I'm thinking that the Empowerment of the Holy Spirit should be evident in all local churches, Spirit-filled believers in every denomination working for gospel truth. Permeating the local Church, strengthening the local church. Even two or three Spirit filled believers in a place can bring a lot of good, a lot of life. Instead I've seen one monster Charismatic 'ministry' in a place, unstable and destabilizing other churches by sucking people from them by illusion. Sucking them out then sucking them dry. The local church can be an ace mission field, I have encountered persons in every type of church who are not born again. A mission field is there. Spirit-filled believers should be there too. If Spirit filled believers pull out of a church it isn't going to get any better.

God Bless