Was Augustine the one who created "Calvinism", and why?

PloverWing

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I don't think I ever thought of this, nor about this, until reading this post.

Do you think then, or now, or ever, that God's Covenant with His people
is broken or changed or lost
if what was built (not on Scripture) did not last ?
Your post doesn't entirely make sense to me, but maybe this can help clarify what I'm thinking of:

The body of Christian belief and practice has developed over time. We begin with Jesus -- what his followers learned from his teachings and saw in his life, death, and resurrection -- and with the body of writings and teachings that was inherited from Judaism. From there, Jesus' followers reflected on what Jesus' life and death and teachings meant, and the best of their reflections were written down as the New Testament. In subsequent generations, Christians continued to reflect and ask questions, and to encounter new situations that raised new questions; out of all of this, new theology was developed -- the doctrine of the Trinity, theories of the atonement, forms of church government, and so on. This process has continued down the generations. As later generations of theologians look back on earlier ones, sometimes they find important truths in the earlier ideas, and they take those truths and build on them, adding their own insights. Thus, Augustine builds on Paul, and the Reformers on Augustine, and modern Presbyterians on the Reformers. There are other chains of theologians who develop schools of thought in different directions.

You sound like you dislike this process, since you speak of God's covenant being broken or lost. I see the process of theological development as a positive one, in which the church collectively -- stretched across time -- is able to understand God more fully than any one isolated individual could.
 
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Dave L

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Incorrect. In Romans 1 God specifically tells us why the ungodly are without excuse.

I wrote this quite some time ago when dealing with a Calvinist. I submit to you that Paul makes it quite clear that God not only makes His existence known to man, but He makes Himself known to the ungodly in such a manner, that to ignore His witness is so blatant that God holds them accountable for their unbelief.

I must warn any readers of this post that it is rather lengthy. A Calvinist (whom I will simply refer to as MC [Mr. Calvinist), made a statement to me about the Greek word γάρ (English "for"); and the Greek word διότι (English "because") used in Romans 1: 13-21. Herein is my reply ... I will take a few moments to do a brief exegesis of Romans 1:13-21. Now I must admit this is a bit lengthy, but it is necessary.

Looking at Romans 1: 13-21 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans

Before getting into these verses, we must know ahead of time that Paul is going to address his point in reverse order. Meaning, Paul is going to say what is needed for salvation, then progressively work backwards to say why the unrighteousness are without excuse.

Let us begin with verse 13 … 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. Romans Paul wants to let the Romans know that it has been his desire to go to Rome, however, he keeps being led other places. He also states the reason for desiring to go to Rome, “that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles”.

1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. Romans It is interesting that Paul says, “I am debtor”. God has given Paul such wondrous grace that Paul now must share the gospel to all. (to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise) 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. Romans

Paul now gives the introductory sentence, which will serve as the first anchor point of this portion of his letter. That point being the gospel.

1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans

And so we have our first γάρ. (For)

Paul says, (reflecting back on preaching the gospel), the first reason I want to preach the gospel is, that I am not ashamed of it.

He then gives us our second γάρ, (for), the reason I am not ashamed of preaching the gospel is that “it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek”.

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans

Paul now gives the third γάρ.

The reason preaching the gospel “is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek”, is that “therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith”.

Do you see how Paul keeps showing how each point he makes is anchored in his previous statement? Moving right along …

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans

The reason that in the preaching of the gospel “is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith”, is that “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”.

Then we would ask, Why? Why is “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”, “in the preaching of the gospel”?

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans

Now Paul gives us our first διότι (Because).

Now remember, διότι is a much stronger word meaning, on the very account that or inasmuch as. Paul is now saying, that it is precisely on the account of the fact that, “that which may be known of God is manifest in them”.

Now before preceding to the rest of this verse, let’s look at the word “manifest”.

The English “manifest” comes from the Greek “φανερός”; (phaneros), meaning openly known, or apparent. This of course brings us to the kind of “knowledge” that was apparent.

Now MC speaks of the three kinds of knowledge, which I do not dispute. However, what MC appears to not realize is that there are different degrees of personal knowledge. For example; I know several things about President Trump. However, that does not mean I know him personally. Likewise, God says that there are particular things about Him that He has revealed to all of mankind, but that does not mean that all of mankind knows Him personally.

The example text MC supplied for personal knowledge is Genesis 4:1 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. Genesis Is MC really implying that personal knowledge is all about marital intimacy? When the Holy Spirit said by the pen of Mark …

1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. Mark

Does this mean the “devils” had marital intimacy with Jesus? Of course not! Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit did in fact say that “they knew him”, referring to Jesus. (God)

Hence, there are obviously different degrees of personal knowledge. When the Holy Spirit has the Apostle Paul write, “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them”, it is the knowledge that God has showed (or revealed) unto them.

Notice … (Back to Romans 1:19b) “for God hath shewed it unto them” This is now the fifth γάρ, which comes directly after Paul saying, “that which may be known of God is manifest in them”.

Hence, Paul will now give the first of two reasons, (in the same manner he has been doing in the preceding verses), he wrote, “that which may be known of God is manifest in them”.

Again, “for God hath shewed it unto them”. Yes, God hath shewed, (or shown), it to them. Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit now makes a very direct statement … with γάρ number six.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans

The Holy Spirit here gives witness to what this knowledge is. God says, “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen”!

No matter what any unbeliever says, this is what God says!!! But look at the words that follow the first part of the verse … “being understood by the things that are made”.

This means that God has chosen to use the physically visible things of creation, to bring all of mankind an understanding of the invisible things of God, “even his eternal power and Godhead”! And what is the legal result of having this knowledge? “so that they are without excuse”.

Through the creation, God shows all of mankind His existence, and power. Each day no matter where we look at the creation, we see the continuing power of God as we read about in God's Word.

1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians

But the Holy Spirit isn’t done yet. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans

We now have the second διότι.

God says what you have just read is on the very account that “when they knew God, they glorified him not as God”. God has given every man the witness of creation, which reveals to us that the Almighty God has not only created the universe; but also by His power sustains it. The creation shows us that the Creator is so powerful that He is absolutely worthy of our worship.

But look what God says next … “neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened”. The next few verses are very important to see how God deals with the very people just mentioned.

1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans

The preceding verses are what the unbelievers do after rejecting the knowledge of God. Then God tells us what He does because of their rejection.

1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Romans

We now see the English “Wherefore”, which comes from the Greek διό, meaning ' for which cause’.

What we see prior to the “therefore” is the 'cause' of what follows the “therefore”.

Hence, it is the rejection of God by the unbelievers that cause God to “gave [give] them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves”

This means that the unbelievers aren’t unbelievers because God Predestinated them to unbelief; rather, it shows that God gave them up BECAUSE of their rejection of the knowledge He revealed to them clearly.

Does this mean man is good, in, and of himself? No. However, it also means that man is not “totally depraved” in such that he cannot see that which this Scripture plainly shows God reveals to man in such a way that it is clearly seen by man; that being the awesome God, “even his eternal power and Godhead”! In other words … so much for “Total Depravity”.

Imagine if you would that a person is situated in a position that trees are on his every side. It is a known fact that the man's eyesight is fine. But when he looks around, he denies seeing any trees. If he sees acknowledges the trees, he would then have to admit he is in a forest; which he desperately doesn't want to do.

The witness is there, and he knows it is there, but refuses to acknowledge it's there. He calls the person providing the witness a liar, just so he can pretend he doesn't see the evidence. God presents so much witness of Himself, that to NOT believe Him is to say you can't see what He says you can.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

- Albert Einstein
 
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Dave L

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If a man works a Gold mine his whole life and decides to give me his fortune, my decision to accept the gift is not a part of the work he has done at the Gold mine.

The same is true of Christ's work at Calvary.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

.
Your starting point is off. It is more like this; The man decides to give you his fortune but you are locked up and cannot receive it. So he spends it on lawyers who set you free so you can spend live on the rest. (Actually, Paul says we are dead, and Christ must first raise us from the dead so we can believe in a biblical sense).
 
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Dave L

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I just saw this and can't really believe what I'm reading.

God is not subject to any law?
You mean we're serving a despot?

God is LOVE
God is MERCY
God is JUST
God is HOLY

It doesn't say God has love...
GOD IS LOVE.
And all the other descriptions I posted.

Did you read 2 Timothy 2:13?
God REMAINS FAITHFUL to HIMSELF.
God cannot deny Himself.

God cannot break any of His laws
because HE IS those laws.

Can God be unjust? unloving? unmerciful? unholy?

If you've answered YES to any of the above it means we cannot TRUST GOD.

Think of the implications.
If God obeys a law, there must be another god he must answer to. God acts according to his nature. But he is not bound by the laws he gives to sinners.
 
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Dave L

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The Holy Spirit inspired Peter to write ..

1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. 1 Peter

How can God BE HOLY if He does the very actions He stated are in violation of Who He IS?

Do you not understand that His description of who He is, is objective, and NOT subjective?
If the law was for adulterers and kidnappers, how does that affect God?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Incorrect. In Romans 1 God specifically tells us why the ungodly are without excuse.

I wrote this quite some time ago when dealing with a Calvinist. I submit to you that Paul makes it quite clear that God not only makes His existence known to man, but He makes Himself known to the ungodly in such a manner, that to ignore His witness is so blatant that God holds them accountable for their unbelief.

I must warn any readers of this post that it is rather lengthy. A Calvinist (whom I will simply refer to as MC [Mr. Calvinist), made a statement to me about the Greek word γάρ (English "for"); and the Greek word διότι (English "because") used in Romans 1: 13-21. Herein is my reply ... I will take a few moments to do a brief exegesis of Romans 1:13-21. Now I must admit this is a bit lengthy, but it is necessary.

Looking at Romans 1: 13-21 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans

Before getting into these verses, we must know ahead of time that Paul is going to address his point in reverse order. Meaning, Paul is going to say what is needed for salvation, then progressively work backwards to say why the unrighteousness are without excuse.

Let us begin with verse 13 … 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. Romans Paul wants to let the Romans know that it has been his desire to go to Rome, however, he keeps being led other places. He also states the reason for desiring to go to Rome, “that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles”.

1:14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise. Romans It is interesting that Paul says, “I am debtor”. God has given Paul such wondrous grace that Paul now must share the gospel to all. (to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise) 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. Romans

Paul now gives the introductory sentence, which will serve as the first anchor point of this portion of his letter. That point being the gospel.

1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Romans

And so we have our first γάρ. (For)

Paul says, (reflecting back on preaching the gospel), the first reason I want to preach the gospel is, that I am not ashamed of it.

He then gives us our second γάρ, (for), the reason I am not ashamed of preaching the gospel is that “it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek”.

1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans

Paul now gives the third γάρ.

The reason preaching the gospel “is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek”, is that “therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith”.

Do you see how Paul keeps showing how each point he makes is anchored in his previous statement? Moving right along …

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Romans

The reason that in the preaching of the gospel “is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith”, is that “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”.

Then we would ask, Why? Why is “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”, “in the preaching of the gospel”?

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Romans

Now Paul gives us our first διότι (Because).

Now remember, διότι is a much stronger word meaning, on the very account that or inasmuch as. Paul is now saying, that it is precisely on the account of the fact that, “that which may be known of God is manifest in them”.

Now before preceding to the rest of this verse, let’s look at the word “manifest”.

The English “manifest” comes from the Greek “φανερός”; (phaneros), meaning openly known, or apparent. This of course brings us to the kind of “knowledge” that was apparent.

Now MC speaks of the three kinds of knowledge, which I do not dispute. However, what MC appears to not realize is that there are different degrees of personal knowledge. For example; I know several things about President Trump. However, that does not mean I know him personally. Likewise, God says that there are particular things about Him that He has revealed to all of mankind, but that does not mean that all of mankind knows Him personally.

The example text MC supplied for personal knowledge is Genesis 4:1 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. Genesis Is MC really implying that personal knowledge is all about marital intimacy? When the Holy Spirit said by the pen of Mark …

1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him. Mark

Does this mean the “devils” had marital intimacy with Jesus? Of course not! Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit did in fact say that “they knew him”, referring to Jesus. (God)

Hence, there are obviously different degrees of personal knowledge. When the Holy Spirit has the Apostle Paul write, “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them”, it is the knowledge that God has showed (or revealed) unto them.

Notice … (Back to Romans 1:19b) “for God hath shewed it unto them” This is now the fifth γάρ, which comes directly after Paul saying, “that which may be known of God is manifest in them”.

Hence, Paul will now give the first of two reasons, (in the same manner he has been doing in the preceding verses), he wrote, “that which may be known of God is manifest in them”.

Again, “for God hath shewed it unto them”. Yes, God hath shewed, (or shown), it to them. Paul by inspiration of the Holy Spirit now makes a very direct statement … with γάρ number six.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Romans

The Holy Spirit here gives witness to what this knowledge is. God says, “the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen”!

No matter what any unbeliever says, this is what God says!!! But look at the words that follow the first part of the verse … “being understood by the things that are made”.

This means that God has chosen to use the physically visible things of creation, to bring all of mankind an understanding of the invisible things of God, “even his eternal power and Godhead”! And what is the legal result of having this knowledge? “so that they are without excuse”.

Through the creation, God shows all of mankind His existence, and power. Each day no matter where we look at the creation, we see the continuing power of God as we read about in God's Word.

1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians

But the Holy Spirit isn’t done yet. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Romans

We now have the second διότι.

God says what you have just read is on the very account that “when they knew God, they glorified him not as God”. God has given every man the witness of creation, which reveals to us that the Almighty God has not only created the universe; but also by His power sustains it. The creation shows us that the Creator is so powerful that He is absolutely worthy of our worship.

But look what God says next … “neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened”. The next few verses are very important to see how God deals with the very people just mentioned.

1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans

The preceding verses are what the unbelievers do after rejecting the knowledge of God. Then God tells us what He does because of their rejection.

1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Romans

We now see the English “Wherefore”, which comes from the Greek διό, meaning ' for which cause’.

What we see prior to the “therefore” is the 'cause' of what follows the “therefore”.

Hence, it is the rejection of God by the unbelievers that cause God to “gave [give] them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves”

This means that the unbelievers aren’t unbelievers because God Predestinated them to unbelief; rather, it shows that God gave them up BECAUSE of their rejection of the knowledge He revealed to them clearly.

Does this mean man is good, in, and of himself? No. However, it also means that man is not “totally depraved” in such that he cannot see that which this Scripture plainly shows God reveals to man in such a way that it is clearly seen by man; that being the awesome God, “even his eternal power and Godhead”! In other words … so much for “Total Depravity”.

Imagine if you would that a person is situated in a position that trees are on his every side. It is a known fact that the man's eyesight is fine. But when he looks around, he denies seeing any trees. If he sees acknowledges the trees, he would then have to admit he is in a forest; which he desperately doesn't want to do.

The witness is there, and he knows it is there, but refuses to acknowledge it's there. He calls the person providing the witness a liar, just so he can pretend he doesn't see the evidence. God presents so much witness of Himself, that to NOT believe Him is to say you can't see what He says you can.
Excellent exegesis!
How does anyone argue with this?

I don't even really understand why it's necessary to know the precise difference between Because and For.

It's only necessary to bring this type of grammar up when someone does NOT want to easily understand what the biblical writer is saying.

Romans 1:19-20 is one of the easiest verses to show that we have the free will to "see" God and know Him, IF we want to.
 
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GodsGrace101

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If God obeys a law, there must be another god he must answer to. God acts according to his nature. But he is not bound by the laws he gives to sinners.
I'm not sure what you mean.
If you mean that He's not BOUND by His own laws....
however, He MUST follow them BECAUSE OF HIS NATURE...then I agree.

It just sounds a little bit like you're saying that not only is He not bound by His laws...but He COULD EVEN break them if He so desired.

It's this desire to break them that I wouldn't agree with. (as you said, because of His very nature).
 
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GodsGrace101

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"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

- Albert Einstein
I read the other member's post and it's very good.
He understands it very well, just went into the subject matter with a lot of detail.
 
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Dave L

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I read the other member's post and it's very good.
He understands it very well, just went into the subject matter with a lot of detail.
He doesn't understand his position or he would abandon it.
 
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Dave L

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I'm not sure what you mean.
If you mean that He's not BOUND by His own laws....
however, He MUST follow them BECAUSE OF HIS NATURE...then I agree.

It just sounds a little bit like you're saying that not only is He not bound by His laws...but He COULD EVEN break them if He so desired.

It's this desire to break them that I wouldn't agree with. (as you said, because of His very nature).
God does not have a free will. His will is bound to his nature. But he is not subject to the laws he writes for his creation. His creation can sin, but God cannot sin.
 
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Dave L

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Excellent exegesis!
How does anyone argue with this?

I don't even really understand why it's necessary to know the precise difference between Because and For.

It's only necessary to bring this type of grammar up when someone does NOT want to easily understand what the biblical writer is saying.

Romans 1:19-20 is one of the easiest verses to show that we have the free will to "see" God and know Him, IF we want to.
"without excuse" only means they deserve their punishment. It does not mean they can stop sinning. That is by grace alone.
 
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Your starting point is off. It is more like this; The man decides to give you his fortune but you are locked up and cannot receive it. So he spends it on lawyers who set you free so you can spend live on the rest. (Actually, Paul says we are dead, and Christ must first raise us from the dead so we can believe in a biblical sense).
Total Depravity is a problem.
All Christians believe that a person is born lost and in need of salvation...
But the person is not dead...he can move and think and reason. I agree that he is depraved and far from God....but not so depraved as to not be able to hear the word of God.

Faith come by hearing
and hearing the World of God.
Romans 10:17

Where does the N.T. say that God gives us the ability to hear? It says that we HEAR and THEN comes faith.

By this hearing a person can either open their heart to God or close it. It's their choice.

Free will is all over the bible. True libertarian free will. Adam did not lose it...he lost only the preternatural gifts.

God draws all men to Himself, as in Romans 1:19-20,,,He reveals Himself. It's up to us to respond.
 
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GodsGrace101

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He doesn't understand his position or he would abandon it.
Why would he abandon it?
I agree with it.
Romans 1:19-20 very clearly states that God revealed Himself to man from the very beginning,,,before anything was even in writing,,,and that so being man has responsibility and free will to answer to that revelation.

Why else would Romans state these facts?
To prove what?
 
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Dave L

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Total Depravity is a problem.
All Christians believe that a person is born lost and in need of salvation...
But the person is not dead...he can move and think and reason. I agree that he is depraved and far from God....but not so depraved as to not be able to hear the word of God.

Faith come by hearing
and hearing the World of God.
Romans 10:17

Where does the N.T. say that God gives us the ability to hear? It says that we HEAR and THEN comes faith.

By this hearing a person can either open their heart to God or close it. It's their choice.

Free will is all over the bible. True libertarian free will. Adam did not lose it...he lost only the preternatural gifts.

God draws all men to Himself, as in Romans 1:19-20,,,He reveals Himself. It's up to us to respond.
Here's the problem. A kid picks up a coin and puts it in his pocket. He freely chooses to do so. And so we think, if he can do that, he can accept Christ just as easily and save himself.

But this is not how salvation works. We cannot discern the true Christ unless first born again. So any Christ we accept will be a false Christ. And if we hear about the true Christ, he will be repugnant to our senses and we will hate and reject him.
 
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Dave L

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Why would he abandon it?
I agree with it.
Romans 1:19-20 very clearly states that God revealed Himself to man from the very beginning,,,before anything was even in writing,,,and that so being man has responsibility and free will to answer to that revelation.

Why else would Romans state these facts?
To prove what?
It = works salvation.
 
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GodsGrace101

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God does not have a free will. His will is bound to his nature. But he is not subject to the laws he writes for his creation. His creation can sin, but God cannot sin.
OK.
I agree.
God does not have a free wil because He will never choose evil so this limits His free will.

Satan also does not have a free will because he will never do good so this limits his free will.

Only man has free will because he could choose whether to obey God or satan...he is able to make a free will choice of a moral nature.

God cannot sin.
Agreed.
 
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Dave L

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OK.
I agree.
God does not have a free wil because He will never choose evil so this limits His free will.

Satan also does not have a free will because he will never do good so this limits his free will.

Only man has free will because he could choose whether to obey God or satan...he is able to make a free will choice of a moral nature.

God cannot sin.
Agreed.
Man chooses according to his fallen nature = sin. Unless given a new nature he is not free to choose righteousness.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Here's the problem. A kid picks up a coin and puts it in his pocket. He freely chooses to do so. And so we think, if he can do that, he can accept Christ just as easily and save himself.

But this is not how salvation works. We cannot discern the true Christ unless first born again. So any Christ we accept will be a false Christ. And if we hear about the true Christ, he will be repugnant to our senses and we will hate and reject him.
You used to hate God?

Lunch.
Later.
 
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