Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Grip Docility

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That's apocalyptic language. When I have more time, I will post earlier examples.

I look forward to your post.

There will be a reckoning. It is written. It will come.

Mercy will be at its heart, but the wicked will come to their fate.

There will be an apocalypse.
 
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mkgal1

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Parousia70 already shared examples of apocalyptic writing from the Old Testament...here:

Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16).

....and to look at 2 Samuel (as one example) more closely:

2 Samuel 22:1,8-16 ~
2 Samuel 22
David’s thanksgiving psalm
22 David spoke the words of this song to the Lord after the Lord delivered him from the power of all his enemies and from Saul.

The earth rocked and shook;
the sky’s foundations trembled
and reeled because of God’s anger.
9 Smoke went up from God’s nostrils;
out of his mouth came a devouring fire;
flaming coals blazed out in front of him!
10 God parted the skies and came down;
thick darkness was beneath his feet.
11 God mounted the heavenly creatures and flew;
he was seen on the wind’s wings.
12 God made darkness his covering;
water gathered in dense clouds!
13 Coals of fire blazed out of the brightness before him.
14 The Lord thundered from heaven;
the Most High made his voice heard.
15 God shot arrows, scattering the enemy;
he sent the lightning and whipped them into confusion.
16 The seabeds were exposed;
the earth’s foundations were laid bare at the Lord’s rebuke,
at the angry blast of air coming from his nostrils.

The earth rocked and shook;
the sky’s foundations trembled
and reeled because of God’s anger.
9 Smoke went up from God’s nostrils;
out of his mouth came a devouring fire;
flaming coals blazed out in front of him!
10 God parted the skies and came down;
thick darkness was beneath his feet.
11 God mounted the heavenly creatures and flew;
he was seen on the wind’s wings.
12 God made darkness his covering;
water gathered in dense clouds!
13 Coals of fire blazed out of the brightness before him.
14 The Lord thundered from heaven;
the Most High made his voice heard.
15 God shot arrows, scattering the enemy;
he sent the lightning and whipped them into confusion.
16 The seabeds were exposed;
the earth’s foundations were laid bare at the Lord’s rebuke,
at the angry blast of air coming from his nostrils.
 
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parousia70

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The world isn't ending (as per the Scripture that Parousia70 already shared). God loves His creation and is redeeming ALL to Himself.

It's the Temple age/the Levitical priesthood that was ending, when Jesus spoke. Jesus took the place of the High Priest. That religious system is what ended - that's what's known as "Heaven and earth", where humanity intersected with God (in the Temple).

Exactly.
The Heavens and earth that would pass away were not the material cosmos, (for God plainly states elsewhere those would exist forever) rather, they were the very same "Heavens and Earth" God Planted in the wilderness Here:
Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”

Notice the subject of the time context (the "when") - it's "YOU" (those standing there).

It's worded like this:

Matthew 24:33-34 ~ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that He e is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

....."all these things" are tied together - not separated by thousands of years and separate generations.

Indeed.
We have no scriptural instruction to remove the disciples whom Jesus was directly addressing from the "you" in the passage.

And notice He didn't say "if you see all these things" he said "WHEN you see all these things"
 
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Grip Docility

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Parousia70 already shared examples of apocalyptic writing from the Old Testament...here:



....and to look at it more closely:

2 Samuel 22:1,8-16 ~
2 Samuel 22
David’s thanksgiving psalm
22 David spoke the words of this song to the Lord after the Lord delivered him from the power of all his enemies and from Saul.

The earth rocked and shook;
the sky’s foundations trembled
and reeled because of God’s anger.
9 Smoke went up from God’s nostrils;
out of his mouth came a devouring fire;
flaming coals blazed out in front of him!
10 God parted the skies and came down;
thick darkness was beneath his feet.
11 God mounted the heavenly creatures and flew;
he was seen on the wind’s wings.
12 God made darkness his covering;
water gathered in dense clouds!
13 Coals of fire blazed out of the brightness before him.
14 The Lord thundered from heaven;
the Most High made his voice heard.
15 God shot arrows, scattering the enemy;
he sent the lightning and whipped them into confusion.
16 The seabeds were exposed;
the earth’s foundations were laid bare at the Lord’s rebuke,
at the angry blast of air coming from his nostrils.

The earth rocked and shook;
the sky’s foundations trembled
and reeled because of God’s anger.
9 Smoke went up from God’s nostrils;
out of his mouth came a devouring fire;
flaming coals blazed out in front of him!
10 God parted the skies and came down;
thick darkness was beneath his feet.
11 God mounted the heavenly creatures and flew;
he was seen on the wind’s wings.
12 God made darkness his covering;
water gathered in dense clouds!
13 Coals of fire blazed out of the brightness before him.
14 The Lord thundered from heaven;
the Most High made his voice heard.
15 God shot arrows, scattering the enemy;
he sent the lightning and whipped them into confusion.
16 The seabeds were exposed;
the earth’s foundations were laid bare at the Lord’s rebuke,
at the angry blast of air coming from his nostrils.

That binds to Psalms and correlate with the return “from the Clouds”, which correlates to Acts 1, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and many other places.

This has been my contention with the doctrine of Preterism.

It’s trying to fit square pegs into round holes.
 
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Grip Docility

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Exactly.
The Heavens and earth that would pass away were not the material cosmos, (for God plainly states elsewhere they would exist forever) rather, they were the very same "Heavens and Earth" God Planted in the wilderness Here:
Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”



Indeed.
We have no scriptural instruction to remove the disciples whom Jesus was directly addressing from the "you" in the passage.

And notice He didn't say "if you see all these things" he said "WHEN you see all these things"

The entire bible tells a unified story of a Coming, literal Apocalypse.

It is not correct to erase passages of scripture because they haven’t happened yet, by ignoring their unified implications.

The Jewish Sanhedrin did that very thing, to their own destruction of power.
 
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parousia70

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Parousia70 already shared examples of apocalyptic writing from the Old Testament...

Check out Ezekiel 5...
Ezekiel 5:9 states that the Babylonian conquest of Israel (sixth-century BC) would be the greatest judgment God would ever bring upon a nation, past or future.

What gives? Just how many "ever was nor ever shall be" events are there, and how can they all be the greatest that "ever was nor ever shall be"??
 
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parousia70

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The entire bible tells a unified story of a Coming, literal Apocalypse.

It is not correct to erase passages of scripture because they haven’t happened yet, by ignoring their unified implications.

The Jewish Sanhedrin did that very thing, to their own destruction of power.

Did you read David's depiction of His battlefield Defeat of Saul in 2 Samuel 22?

Would you say that Cloud coming of God in Judgement that David describes in vivid literal detail, literally, visibly happened the way David described?
 
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parousia70

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I look forward to your post.

The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)

[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
 
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parousia70

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Grip Docility

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Did you read David's depiction of His battlefield Defeat of Saul in 2 Samuel 22?

Would you say that Cloud coming of God in Judgement that David describes in vivid literal detail, literally, visibly happened the way David described?

That’s also a prophecy that ties in to the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

By ignoring Prophetic context, you’re missing how God uses current events to foretell future events in scripture.

It has happened many times already... that God does this.

Theologians can’t just sweep Future Prophecy Under the rug to make current theology seem neat, clean and all tidy to fit in Commentaries that explain it all away.
 
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Grip Docility

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This A perfect example of superimposing ones bias upon the text.

Quite the contrary. It’s an example of refusing to compromise text, to listen to what God is telling us.
 
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claninja

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While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?

Paul believed the end of the ages was upon them
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Peter believed the end was at hand
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

John believed it was the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

James believed the coming of the Lord was at hand. Additionally, notice the present tense of "standing" at the door. James states the judge is standing at the door. The only way he would know that is if he was seeing all the signs as listed in the olivet discourse.
James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

That's 4 witnesses that believe the end of the age was upon them. Why would they all believe that? because Jesus told them.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
 
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Grip Docility

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Paul believed the end of the ages was upon them
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Peter believed the end was at hand
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray

John believed it was the last hour
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour

James believed the coming of the Lord was at hand. Additionally, notice the present tense of "standing" at the door. James states the judge is standing at the door. The only way he would know that is if he was seeing all the signs as listed in the olivet discourse.
James 5:8-9 You too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.

That's 4 witnesses that believe the end of the age was upon them. Why would they all believe that? because Jesus told them.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

Yet we have 2 Peter 3 and are assured that there is a reason. Near is used for a reason, as well.

You’re still missing what is being said and why. The end times haven’t happened yet. He’s at the door, not through the door.

Matthew 24 has been discussed from both perspectives.

Again, for the umpteenth time...

Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance. But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.
2 Peter 3:8-10 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Peter 3:8-10 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

It’s plain as Day!
 
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mkgal1

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The Heavens and earth that would pass away were not the material cosmos, (for God plainly states elsewhere those would exist forever) rather, they were the very same "Heavens and Earth" God Planted in the wilderness Here:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’ ”
:oldthumbsup:
 
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Tayla

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I have recently taken the more amillenial view (I prefer the term postmillenial, however that has a different meaning to many these days). But I still have difficulty believing the return of the Jews to their historic land this past century has no prophetic significance. Thoughts?
I am amillennial. I think the return of the Jews to Israel is merely because they have the historical and cultural association. I don't believe there is any prophetic significance.

When Christ does finally return just before the white throne judgment followed by the new heavens and new earth, I believe he will touch down on the Mt. of Olives. Enemies may try to oppose him, but I doubt there will be enough time for a final war and etc. He will not do any nation building on this earth, so his touching down there is not significant.
 
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claninja

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Yet we have 2 Peter 3 and are assured that there is a reason.

2 Peter 3 addresses that God is outside of time. It does not address why God doesn't actually mean near when he communicates nearness through human language to humans.

2 Peter 3 does not address why Daniel is told to seal up the vision for the time is for many days from now and John is told not to seal up the vision for the time is near.

If the angel told both Daniel and John the time is near, then you would have a point.


Additionally, your interpretation contradicts the multiple passages about the nearness (literal meaning, not polar opposite you have appointed to it) in Peter's generation

1 Peter 4:5 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God

1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is about to be revealed:

You’re still missing what is being said and why. The end times haven’t happened yet.

Maybe you can address the following then:

Why does Peter say the end is at hand (1 peter 4:7)? Why does Paul say the end of the ages is upon us (1 Corinthians 10:11)? Why does John it is the last hour (1 John 2:18)? Why James say the coming of the Lord is at hand and the judge is standing at the door (James 5:8-9)?


He’s at the door, not through the door.

It doesn't say he is "through the door" when they see all these things. It says "at" the door when they see all these things

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door.
 
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claninja

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Was the flood a “Metaphorical” event? I say no.

You say?

No, the flood was not a metaphorical event.

Interesting enough Peter states scoffers deliberately over look that the heavens and earth existed a long time ago, and that the world of THAT time perished by flood.

2 Peter 3:5-6 But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through whicha the world of that time perished in the flood

He contrasts the heavens and earth that perished a long time ago, with the heavens and earth that now exist. Notice, Peter doesn't say it is the heavens and earth that existed long ago that are reserved for fire.

2 Peter 3:7 And by that same word, the heavens and earth that now exist. are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
 
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parousia70

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That’s also a prophecy that ties in to the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

Ah hah! I knew you'd play the double fulfillment card sooner or later!
You pretty much have to, to get your theology to work.

Where does this scripture teach what you claim?
 
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