Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

mkgal1

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We each have opinions and can go back and forth for a long period of time... but sincerely... I need to unplug for a bit. The back and forth gets tedious.

You have studied hard to back your interpretation and I respect that.

I just don’t want good old back and forth banter to be anything other than that. It gets exhausting to stay locked in back and forth.

Call it what you will, but I’m chilling out.

Our salvation remains intact, so no worries here.

All blessings in Christ, to you.
I respect and understand that. Instead of just resorting to "back and forth banter" and having a quick answer for what's posted, I'd honestly appreciate it if you could read what's been posted and contemplate it. It takes a while to look at things differently.
 
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jgr

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The disciples Died by persecution, all accept for John, who was boiled in oil and managed to be exiled alive to the Isle of Patmos. Not sure what you’re insinuating here.

Paul went back to Jerusalem after that warning with other disciples, according to your “implication”.... along you’re reasoning, did Paul ignore Jesus?

Galatians 1:18-20

The disciples lived by heeding a warning which you claim was never intended for them, and acting upon it. Just think; they should have stayed in Jerusalem and been annihilated. They could have taken the fast lane to heaven.

They were therefore very disobedient.

God must have been very displeased with their disobedience.
 
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St. Helens

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MOD HAT ON
Thread deeply pruned due to users addressing the poster instead of the post.
Please avoid using 'you and your' when replying as much as possible.

MOD HAT OFF
 
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mkgal1

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The context of “This Generation” is grammatically encapsulated within Future context, immediately dismantling the ability to bind the context to the Generation being spoken to.

Confusion gone.
I've never seen a case where "this" meant something in the future. I'm not sure what grammar you're referring to. Futurist grammar, I guess.

Think of it this way (ha!....I already used the word, "this"). If I held up a glass of water and said, "This glass of water......" would you ignore the glass in my hand and believe I'm referring to one in the future?

I'm genuinely gobsmacked that people have come up with explanations like this (that they've convinced themselves of ).
 
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claninja

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A day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day.

2 Peter 3 has you your answer... I didn’t write it.

Daniel is told to the seal up the vision of the ram, goat, and 2,300 evenings and mornings because it refers to "many days from now".

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

However, John is told NOT to seal up the words of the prophecy for "the time is near".

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.


There are typically 2 interpretations of Daniel 8: 1.) it's about Greece and Persia leading up to Antiochus Epiphanes desecrating the temple OR 2.) it's about the end times antichrist.

If option 1 is correct, then the "but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now" from Daniel 8 means about 350-400 years (from the time of the Babylonian exile until Antiochus ephiphanes). This would mean that Revelation's "do not seal up the words for the time is near" should logically be less than 350-400 years in order to be consistent with the time frame given by the angel.

If option 2 is correct, then the "but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now" from Daniel 8 means about +2,500 years (from the time of the Babylonian exile to the end times antichrist). According to futurists this would mean Revelation's "do not seal up the words for the time is near" means +2,000 years (from the time revelation was written until the 2nd coming). However, when we reach the spand of +2,000 years, to say that 2,500 years is "many days from now" and 2,000 years is "near" doesn't make any logical sense and isn't consistent interpretation.





 
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parousia70

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The disciples Died by persecution, all except for John, who was boiled in oil and managed to be exiled alive to the Isle of Patmos. Not sure what you’re insinuating here.

Jesus warned the Disciples:
"when you see Jerusalem Surrounded By Armies, know that its desolation is near, then let those in Judea flee to the mountains"

That is what then happened... the Followers of Christ indeed Saw with their own eyes this very prophetic utterance of Jesus come to pass in their generation. Jerusalem was surrounded by armies, they then fled Judea to the safety of Pella as they were instructed by their master to do.

Were they wrong to heed that warning because, as you claim, that warning was not FOR them but was rather for a generation 2000+ years removed from theirs?

Paul went back to Jerusalem after that warning, with other disciples, according to your “implication”.... along your reasoning, did Paul ignore Jesus?

Galatians 1:18-20

Paul went back to Jerusalem AFTER he saw it surrounded by armies in 66 AD?

There was no admonishment to flee Jerusalem BEFORE they saw armies surrounding it, was there?.
 
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parousia70

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According to futurists this would mean Revelation's "do not seal up the words for the time is near" means +2,000 years (from the time revelation was written until the 2nd coming). However, when we reach the spand of +2,000 years, to say that 2,500 years is "many days from now" and 2,000 years is "near" doesn't make any logical sense and isn't consistent interpretation.

Ding Ding Ding!

in no way shape or form, logic or reason, can one maintain that, to God, 2000 years is NEAR but 2500 years is FAR AWAY...
 
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Grip Docility

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I've never seen a case where "this" meant something in the future. I'm not sure what grammar you're referring to. Futurist grammar, I guess.

Think of it this way (ha!....I already used the word, "this"). If I held up a glass of water and said, "This glass of water......" would you ignore the glass in my hand and believe I'm referring to one in the future?

I'm genuinely gobsmacked that people have come up with explanations like this (that they've convinced themselves of ).

Entire tense of Jesus speech... (Future Tense)

Matthew 24:32-36 <~ Second Coming of Christ encapsulated.

For the temple destruction to be cited in the beginning of the paragraph, there is no doubt that Jesus is prophesying.

But, to then lump that one part of all that He says, in future prophecy context, to that one event, when Jesus goes on to many other matters that concern His second coming to the point where “This Generation”, must apply to those He is speaking with, when He is clearly talking about “This Generation”, those who will be alive for His Corporeal Return... is just unnecessary and boldly in ignorance to the context that Jesus is speaking.

Frankly, I’m gobsmacked that anyone can deny that “This” is a fact.

Example... (pretend prophecy made in the 1800’s to make a point)

(People will discover how to make Atom bombs. Japan will be bombed.

Wars will break out and all sorts of terrible things will happen. All the earth will be wiped out.

When all nations assemble against Israel, “This Generation will not pass”, until the world is ended and all things are revealed.
)

It’s that simple!
 
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parousia70

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Wars will break out and all sorts of terrible things will happen. All the earth will be wiped out.

When all nations assemble against Israel, “This Generation will not pass”, until the world is ended and all things are revealed.
)
Rather, Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
 
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jgr

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Entire tense of Jesus speech... (Future Tense)

Matthew 24:32-36 <~ Second Coming of Christ encapsulated.

For the temple destruction to be cited in the beginning of the paragraph, there is no doubt that Jesus is prophesying.

But, to then lump that one part of all that He says, in future prophecy context, to that one event, when Jesus goes on to many other matters that concern His second coming to the point where “This Generation”, must apply to those He is speaking with, when He is clearly talking about “This Generation”, those who will be alive for His Corporeal Return... is just unnecessary and boldly in ignorance to the context that Jesus is speaking.

Frankly, I’m gobsmacked that anyone can deny that “This” is a fact.

Example... (pretend prophecy made in the 1800’s to make a point)

(People will discover how to make Atom bombs. Japan will be bombed.

Wars will break out and all sorts of terrible things will happen. All the earth will be wiped out.

When all nations assemble against Israel, “This Generation will not pass”, until the world is ended and all things are revealed.
)

It’s that simple!

For all those not afflicted by terminal futuritis, here is a plethora of historical evidence that Jesus was speaking to and of His disciples, and the generation at that time.
 
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Grip Docility

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@Grip Docility - you forgot to respond to this part:


The early church survived by fleeing to the mountains of Pella (as Jesus had instructed them to do).


Matthew 24:16 ~ ......then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14 ~ And when you see the abomination of the desolation, standing where it should not (the one reading, let him understand), then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains

Luke 21:21-24 ~ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Pella-Odeion-Church-300x200.jpg


Pella: A Window on Survival ------> Link to article:https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...rchaeology-places/pella-a-window-on-survival/


Church Timeline/Apostolic Era:

That's mighty convenient.

the only reason it appears circular is because of your unwillingness to demonstrate any consistency in your interpretation of the word.

Can you?
Which is it?
Is "near" in Matt 24:33 Near to God, but far away to men, because, as you claim, it is in relation to his return?

Or is near in Matt 24:33 actually Near in relation to men, even though it applies to His return?

As I believe I've posted a few times - this understanding is very new to me (and I definitely am far behind when it comes to modern politics and geography). When I look up maps of "Judea", I only see ancient maps - nothing modern. Can you show me? Even if it's there - it's still not any proof that it exists because of fulfilled prophecy.

But you side-stepped the question that jgr asked - about the followers of Jesus fleeing to the mountains based on His instruction. Do you believe they were wrong to follow His instruction? Did they misunderstand Him in believing those words were for them?

Okay,

For the umpteenth time, I believe Jesus specifically Prophesied the 70 AD Temple destruction in (part) of Matthew 24.

I have never disagreed with that at any place in thread history, or elsewhere. Infact, I see it as a result of the breaking off of the Enemy of the Gospel Jews.

However, Jesus is answering the disciples about a two part question and speaks in near future tense as well as far future tense while blending together answers to their two part questions.

This is as clear as I can communicate this.
 
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parousia70

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Okay,
For the umpteenth time, I believe Jesus specifically Prophesied the 70 AD Temple destruction in (part) of Matthew 24.

The disciples asked Him to tell them "WHEN" the temple would be destroyed.

As far as you can tell, did He ever give them an answer to that question?
 
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Grip Docility

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The disciples asked Him to tell them "WHEN" the temple would be destroyed.

As far as you can tell, did He ever give them an answer to that question?

Actually, Jesus said this...

As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. Then He replied to them, “Don’t you see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!
Matthew 24:1-2 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24:1-2 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

To which the Disciples asked a two parter, either assuming the two were related, or felt impressed to ask, two separate questions, in response to Jesus’ shocking words that He had just spoke.

While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?
Matthew 24:3 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24:3 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Two parts to their question, to which Jesus then begins to answer, in only the way God could, in a way that holds supreme future tense, along with a clear drift into the far future, as well as the near future.

This is the most honest reading of this passage, without bias.
 
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Grip Docility

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Ding Ding Ding!

in no way shape or form, logic or reason, can one maintain that, to God, 2000 years is NEAR but 2500 years is FAR AWAY...

Peter knew you would say this and wrote 2 Peter 3, to answer your concern that Jesus seems to be taking a long time, and he answers the “Why” as well.
 
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Grip Docility

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Rather, Scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are unending and perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

This is ignoring Revelation 19, Revelation 20 and Revelation 21.

I don’t even have to stress this inference.

There will be a literal burning away of this earth, to make way for a New Heaven and New Earth.

To surmise otherwise is simply throwing clear passages that span from Gen - Rev out the door.

It is Obtuse to say all the earth has been wiped out, or that All nations of the entire globe have assembled Against Jerusalem, yet.

Rome wasn’t comprised of the Nations that Psalms foretells will assemble against Israel.

It’s that simple.

Jesus is addressing Eschatology in respects to Jerusalem as the clock of Prophecy and spans millennia in His answer.

No Theologian to this day has covered so much in a few paragraphs...

Jesus as the supreme Theologian for the win!
 
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mkgal1

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Entire tense of Jesus speech... (Future Tense)

Matthew 24:32-36 <~ Second Coming of Christ encapsulated.

For the temple destruction to be cited in the beginning of the paragraph, there is no doubt that Jesus is prophesying.

But, to then lump that one part of all that He says, in future prophecy context, to that one event, when Jesus goes on to many other matters that concern His second coming to the point where “This Generation”, must apply to those He is speaking with, when He is clearly talking about “This Generation”, those who will be alive for His Corporeal Return... is just unnecessary and boldly in ignorance to the context that Jesus is speaking.
Your're imposing that belief and all the other presumptions you believe that are related to that onto the text, though (and that's why you're coming to that conclusion).

This is what the heading looks like in most versions of Matthew 24. The first paragraph is the summary of the chapter to follow. There is not a break in the topic:


Matthew 24
The temple’s fate
24 Now Jesus left the temple and was going away. His disciples came to point out to him the temple buildings. 2 He responded, “Do you see all these things? I assure that no stone will be left on another. Everything will be demolished.”​

Look at verse 33 (the preceding verse to the verse that uses "this generation"). It says:

33 In the same way, when you see all these things


Jesus is addressing the disciples that were standing right there with Him - they are the "YOU" that will SEE "all these things" He is describing.

 
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Grip Docility

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Your're imposing that belief and all the other presumptions you believe that are related to that onto the text, though (and that's why you're coming to that conclusion).

This is what the heading looks like in most versions of Matthew 24. The first paragraph is the summary of the chapter to follow. There is not a break in the topic:


Matthew 24
The temple’s fate
24 Now Jesus left the temple and was going away. His disciples came to point out to him the temple buildings. 2 He responded, “Do you see all these things? I assure that no stone will be left on another. Everything will be demolished.”​
Look at verse 33 (the preceding verse to the verse that uses "this generation"). It says:

33 In the same way, when you see all these things
Jesus is addressing the disciples that were standing right there with Him - they are the "YOU" that will SEE "all these things" He is describing.

Actually, Jesus said this...

As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. Then He replied to them, “Don’t you see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!
Matthew 24:1-2 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24:1-2 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

To which the Disciples asked a two parter, either assuming the two were related, or felt impressed to ask, two separate questions, in response to Jesus’ shocking words that He had just spoke.

While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?
Matthew 24:3 - Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24:3 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Two parts to their question, to which Jesus then begins to answer, in only the way God could, in a way that holds supreme future tense, along with a clear drift into the far future, as well as the near future.

This is the most honest reading of this passage, without bias.

I’m not removing context, and I’m addressing the two questions of the Disciples that Jesus Answers in pieces and parts that span prophecy near and Prophecy far.

It isn’t I that am reading into the text.
 
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mkgal1

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When all nations assemble against Israel, “This Generation will not pass”, until the world is ended and all things are revealed.)

It’s that simple!
The world isn't ending (as per the Scripture that Parousia70 already shared). God loves His creation and is redeeming ALL to Himself.

It's the Temple age/the Levitical priesthood that was ending, when Jesus spoke. Jesus took the place of the High Priest. That religious system is what ended - that's what's known as "Heaven and earth", where humanity intersected with God (in the Temple).

Notice the subject of the time context (the "when") - it's "YOU" (those standing there).

It's worded like this:

Matthew 24:33-34 ~ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that He e is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

....."all these things" are tied together - not separated by thousands of years and separate generations.
 
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Grip Docility

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The world isn't ending (as per the Scripture that Parousia70 already shared). God loves His creation and is redeeming ALL to Himself.

It's the Temple age/the Levitical priesthood that was ending. Jesus took the place of the High Priest.

Notice the subject of the time context (the "when") - it's "YOU" (those standing there).

It's worded like this:

Matthew 24:33-34 ~ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that He e is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

....."all these things" are tied together - not separated by thousands of years and separate generations.

This Gehenna Hole is hurtling towards an end that only Jesus can save us from, Physically.

The idea posited is ignoring all of scripture.

It’s the people that come to repentance that Jesus is all about. This world will burn.

It is a promise. Not a flood, but a fire.
 
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mkgal1

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There will be a literal burning away of this earth, to make way for a New Heaven and New Earth.
That's apocalyptic language. When I have more time, I will post earlier examples.
 
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