Sola Scriptura, the Pail of Orthodoxy and the living God

frogoon234

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What is the pail of orthodoxy? A google search turns up a video and this forum thread.

There are other churches within the Pail of Orthodoxy.

In general United Methodist, I guess a certain Medieval church, Reformed/Presbyterian, Lutheran, Anglican, Seventh Day Adventist, the list goes ..................

Its a concept i learned from my Dad. I guess i assumed it was common term.
 
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Athanasius377

Out of the deep I called unto thee O Lord
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"Reformed":

"Contemplate therefore the Bread and Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for though sense suggests this to thee, let faith stablish thee. Judge not the matter from taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that thou hast been vouchsafed the Body and Blood of Christ.

-"Catechetical Lectures [22 (Mystagogic 4), 6]"

"`I have received of the Lord that which I also delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, etc. [1 Cor. 11:23]'. This teaching of the Blessed Paul is alone sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, which when ye are vouchsafed, ye are of (the same body) [Eph 3:6] and blood with Christ. For he has just distinctly said, (That our Lord Jesus Christ the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He brake it, and said, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood.) [1 Cor. 2:23-25] Since then He Himself has declared and said of the Bread, (This is My Body), who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has affirmed and said, (This is My Blood), who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?

-"Catechetical Lectures [22 (Mystagogic 4), 1]

"After this you hear the singing which invites you with a divine melody to the Communion of the Holy Mysteries, and which says, 'Taste and see that the Lord is good.' Do not trust to the judgement of the bodily palate - no, but to unwavering faith. For they who are urged to taste do not taste of bread and wine, but to the antitype, of the Body and Blood of Christ."

-"Mystagogic Catecheses 5 23, 20 ca. 350 A.D
Here is the entire lecture. YOu will notice that Cyril teaches a spiritual presence not a physical one which is why I said it is closer to the Reformed view of the Real Presence.

. Even of itself the teaching of the Blessed Paul is sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, of which having been deemed worthy, ye are become of the same body and blood with Christ. For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He brake it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, lie said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?

2. He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood? When called to a bodily marriage, He miraculously wrought that wonderful work; and on the children of the bride-chamber, shall He not much rather be acknowledged to have bestowed the fruition of His Body and Blood?

3. Wherefore with full assurance let us partake as of the Body and Blood of Christ: for in the figure of Bread is given to thee His Body, and in the figure of Wine His Blood; that thou by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, mayest be made of the same body and the same blood with Him. For thus we come to bear Christ in us, because His Body and Blood are distributed through our members; thus it is that, according to the blessed Peter, we became partakers of the divine nature.

4. Christ on a certain occasion discoursing with the Jews said, Except ye eat My flesh and drink My blood, ye have no life in you. They not having heard His saying in a spiritual sense were offended, and went back, supposing that He was inviting them to eat flesh.

5. In the Old Testament also there was shew-bread; but this, as it belonged to the Old Testament, has come to an end; but in the New Testament there is Bread of heaven, and a Cup of salvation, sanctifying soul and body; for as the Bread corresponds to our body, so is the Word appropriate to our soul.

6. Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to thee, yet let faith establish thee. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouch-safed to thee.

7. Also the blessed David shall advise thee the meaning of this, saying, Thou hast prepared a table before me in the presence of them that afflict me. What he says, is to this effect: Before Thy coming, the evil spirits prepared a table for men, polluted and defiled and full of devilish influence; but since Thy coming. O Lord, Thou hast prepared a table before me. When the man says to God, Thou hast prepared before me a table, what other does he indicate but that mystical and spiritual Table, which God hath prepared for us over against, that is, contrary and in opposition to the evil spirits? And very truly; for that had communion with devils, but this, with God. Thou hast anointed my head with oil. With oil He anointed thine head upon thy forehead, for the seal which thou hast of God; that thou mayest be made the engraving of the signet, Holiness unto God. And thy cup intoxicateth me, as very strong. Thou seest that cup here spoken of, which Jesus took in His hands, and gave thanks, and said, This is My blood, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

8. Therefore Solomon also, hinting at this grace, says in Ecclesiastes, Come hither, eat thy bread with joy (that is, the spiritual bread; Come hither, he calls with the call to salvation and blessing), and drink thy wine with a merry heart (that is, the spiritual wine); and let oil be poured out upon thy head (thou sees he alludes even to the mystic Chrism); and let thy garments be always white, for the Lord is well pleased with thy works; for before thou camest to Baptism, thy works were vanity of vanities. But now, having put off thy old garments, and put on those which are spiritually white, thou must be continually robed in white: of course we mean not this, that thou art always to wear white raiment; but thou must be clad in the garments that are truly white and shining and spiritual, that thou mayest say with the blessed Esaias, My soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with a garment of salvation, and put a robe of gladness around me.

9. Having learnt these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, “strengthen thou thine heart,” by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.” And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, mayest thou reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord, and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:—To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen.



Cyril of Jerusalem. (1894). Five. In P. Schaff & H. Wace (Eds.), R. W. Church & E. H. Gifford (Trans.), S. Cyril of Jerusalem, S. Gregory Nazianzen (Vol. 7, pp. 151–152). New York: Christian Literature Company.
 
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Athanasius377

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"Reformed":

"Contemplate therefore the Bread and Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord's declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for though sense suggests this to thee, let faith stablish thee. Judge not the matter from taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that thou hast been vouchsafed the Body and Blood of Christ.

-"Catechetical Lectures [22 (Mystagogic 4), 6]"

"`I have received of the Lord that which I also delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, etc. [1 Cor. 11:23]'. This teaching of the Blessed Paul is alone sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, which when ye are vouchsafed, ye are of (the same body) [Eph 3:6] and blood with Christ. For he has just distinctly said, (That our Lord Jesus Christ the same night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He brake it, and said, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, Take, drink, this is My Blood.) [1 Cor. 2:23-25] Since then He Himself has declared and said of the Bread, (This is My Body), who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has affirmed and said, (This is My Blood), who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?

-"Catechetical Lectures [22 (Mystagogic 4), 1]

"After this you hear the singing which invites you with a divine melody to the Communion of the Holy Mysteries, and which says, 'Taste and see that the Lord is good.' Do not trust to the judgement of the bodily palate - no, but to unwavering faith. For they who are urged to taste do not taste of bread and wine, but to the antitype, of the Body and Blood of Christ."

-"Mystagogic Catecheses 5 23, 20 ca. 350 A.D

This Section is dealing with putting away defilement and an explanation of the liturgy buta not a systematic explanation of the the eucharist like lecture 22 was. But that's Jurgens for you.

1. By the loving-kindness of God ye have heard sufficiently at our former meetings concerning Baptism, and Chrism, and partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ; and now it is necessary to pass on to what is next in order, meaning to-day to set the crown on the spiritual building of your edification.

2. Ye have seen then the Deacon who gives to the Priest water to wash, and to the Presbyters who stand round God’s altar. He gave it not at all because of bodily defilement; it is not that; for we did not enter the Church at first with defiled bodies. But the washing of hands is a symbol that ye ought to be pure from all sinful and unlawful deeds; for since the hands are a symbol of action, by washing them, it is evident, we represent the purity and blamelessness of our conduct. Didst thou not hear the blessed David opening this very mystery, and saying, I will wash my hands in innocency, and so will compass Thine Altar, O Lord? The washing therefore of hands is a symbol of immunity from sin.

3. Then the Deacon cries aloud, “Receive ye one another; and let us kiss one another.” Think not that this kiss is of the same character with those given in public by common friends. It is not such: but this kiss blends souls one with another, and courts entire forgiveness for them. The kiss therefore is the sign that our souls are mingled together, and banish all remembrance of wrongs. For this cause Christ said, If thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, leave there thy gift upon the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. The kiss therefore is reconciliation, and for this reason holy: as the blessed Paul somewhere cried, saying, Greet ye one another with a holy kiss; and Peter, with a kiss of charity.

4. After this the Priest cries aloud, “Lift up your hearts.” For truly ought we in that most awful hour to have our heart on high with God, and not below, thinking of earth and earthly things. In effect therefore the Priest bids all in that hour to dismiss all cares of this life, or household anxieties, and to have their heart in heaven with the merciful God. Then ye answer, “We lift them up unto the Lord:” assenting to it, by your avowal. But let no one come here, who could say with his mouth, “We lift up our hearts unto the Lord,” but in his thoughts have his mind concerned with the cares of this life At all times, rather, God should be in our memory but if this is impossible by reason of human infirmity, in that hour above all this should be our earnest endeavour.

5. Then the Priest says, “Let us give thanks unto the Lord.” For verily we are bound to give thanks, that He called us, unworthy as we were, to so great grace; that He reconciled us when we were His foes; that He vouch-safed to us the Spirit of adoption. Then ye say, “It is meet and right:” for in giving thanks we do a meet thing and a right; but He did not right, but more than right, in doing us good, and counting us meet for such great benefits.

6. After this, we make mention of heaven, and earth, and sea; of sun and moon; of stars and all the creation, rational and irrational, visible and invisible; of Angels, Archangels, Virtues, Dominions, Principalities, Powers, Thrones; of the Cherubim with many faces: in effect repeating that call of David’s Magnify the Lord with me. We make mention also of the Seraphim, whom Esaias in the Holy Spirit saw standing around the throne of God, and with two of their wings veiling their face, and with twain their feet, while with twain they did fly, crying Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of Sabaoth. For the reason of our reciting this confession of God, delivered down to us from the Seraphim, is this, that so we may be partakers with the hosts of the world above in their Hymn of praise.

7. Then having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual Hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the Bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is surely sanctified and changed.

8. Then, after the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless service, is completed, over that sacrifice of propitiation we entreat God for the common peace of the Churches, for the welfare of the world; for kings; for soldiers and allies; for the sick; for the afflicted; and, in a word, for all who stand in need of succour we all pray and offer this sacrifice.

9. Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.

10. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him offence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.

11. Then, after these things, we say that Prayer which the Saviour delivered to His own disciples, with a pure conscience entitling God our Father, and saying, Our Father, which art in heaven. O most surpassing loving-kindness of God! On them who revolted from Him and were in the very extreme at misery has. He bestowed such a complete forgiveness of evil deeds, and so great participation of grace, as that they should even call Him Father. Our Father, which art in heaven, and they also are a heaven who bear the image of the heavenly, in whom is God, dwelling and walking in them.

12. Hollowed be Thy Name. The Name of God is in its nature holy, whether we say so or not; but since it is sometimes profaned among sinners, according to the words, Through you My Name is continually blasphemed among the Gentiles, we pray that in us God’s Name may be hollowed; not that it comes to be holy from not being holy, but because it becomes holy in us, when we are made holy, and do things worthy of holiness.

13. Thy kingdom come. A pure soul can say with boldness, Thy kingdom come; for he who has heard Paul saying, Let not therefore sin reign in your mortal body, and has cleansed himself in deed, and thought, and word, will say to God, Thy kingdom come.

14. Thy will be done as in heaven so on earth. God’s divine and blessed Angels do the will of God, as David said in the Psalm, Bless the Lord, all ye Angels of His, mighty in strength, that do His pleasure. So then in effect thou meanest this by thy prayer, “as in the Angels Thy will is done, so likewise be it done on earth in me, O Lord.”

15. Give us this day our substantial bread. This common bread is not substantial bread, but this Holy Bread is substantial, that is, appointed for the substance of the soul. For this Bread goeth not into the belly and is cast out into the draught, but is distributed into thy whole system for the benefit of body and soul. But by this day, he means, “each day,” as also Paul said, While it is called to-day.

16. And forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors. For we have many sins. For we offend both in word and in thought, and very many things we do worthy of condemnation; and if we say that we have no sin, we lie, as John says. And we make a covenant with God, entreating Him to forgive us our sins, as we also forgive our neighbours their debts. Considering then what we receive and in return for what, let us not put off nor delay to forgive one another. The offences committed against us are slight and trivial, and easily settled; but those which we have committed against God are great, and need such mercy as His only is. Take heed therefore, lest for the slight and trivial sins against thee thou shut out for thyself forgiveness from God for thy very grievous sins.

17. And lead us not into temptation, O Lord. Is this then what the Lord teaches us to pray, that we may not be tempted at all? How then is it said elsewhere, “a man untempted, is a man unproved;” and again, My brethren, count it all joy when ye fail into divers temptations? But does perchance the entering into temptation mean the being overwhelmed by the temptation? For temptation is, as it were, like a winter torrent difficult to cross. Those therefore who are not overwhelmed in temptations, pass through, shewing themselves excellent swimmers, and not being swept away by them at all; while those who are not such, enter into them and are overwhelmed. As for example, Judas having entered into the temptation of the love of money, swam not through it, but was overwhelmed and was strangled both in body and spirit. Peter entered into the temptation of the denial; but having entered, he was not overwhelmed by it, but manfully swam through it, and was delivered from the temptation. Listen again, in another place, to a company of unscathed saints, giving thanks for deliverance from temptation, Thou, O God hast prayed us; Thou hast tried us by, fire like as silver is tried. Thou broughtest us into the net; Thou layedst afflictions upon our loins. Thou hast caused men to ride over our heads; we went through fire and water; and thou broughtest us out into a place of rest. Thou seest them speaking boldly in regard to their having passed through and not been pierced. But Thou broughtest us out into a place of rest; now their coming into a place of rest is their being delivered from temptation.

18. But deliver us from the evil. If Lead us not into temptation implied the not being tempted at all, He would not have said, But deliver us from the evil. Now evil is our adversary the devil, from whom we pray to be delivered. Then after completing the prayer thou sayest, Amen; by this Amen, which means “So be it,” setting thy seal to the petitions of the divinely-taught prayer.

19. After this the Priest says, “Holy things to holy men.” Holy are the gifts presented, having received the visitation of the Holy Ghost; holy are ye also, having been deemed worthy of the Holy Ghost; the holy things therefore correspond to the holy persons. Then ye say, “One is Holy, One is the Lord, Jesus Christ.” For One is truly holy, by nature holy; we too are holy, but not by nature, only by participation, and discipline, and prayer.

20. After this ye hear the chanter inviting you with a sacred melody to the communion of the Holy Mysteries, and saying, O taste and see that the Lord is good. Trust not the judgment to thy bodily palate; no, but to faith unfaltering; for they who taste are bidden to taste, not bread and wine, but the anti-typical Body and Blood of Christ.

21. In approaching therefore, come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers spread; but make thy left hand a throne for the fight, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, Amen. So then after having carefully hollowed thine eyes by the touch of the Holy Body, partake of it; giving heed lest thou lose any portion thereof; for whatever thou losest, is evidently a loss to thee as it were from one of thine own members. For tell me, if any one gave thee grains of gold, wouldest thou not hold them with all carefulness, being on thy guard against losing any of them, and suffering loss? Wilt thou not then much more carefully keep watch, that not a crumb fall from thee of what is more precious than gold and precious stones?

22. Then after thou hast partaken of the Body of Christ, draw near also to the Cup of His Blood; not stretching forth thine hands, but bending, and saying with an air of worship and reverence, Amen, hallow thyself by partaking also of the Blood of Christ. And while the moisture is still upon thy lips, touch it with thine hands, and hallow thine eyes and brow and the other organs of sense. Then wait for the prayer, and give thanks unto God, who hath accounted thee worthy of so great mysteries.

23. Hold fast these traditions undefiled and, keep yourselves free from offence. Sever not yourselves from the Communion; deprive not yourselves, through the pollution of sins, of these Holy and Spiritual Mysteries. And the God of peace sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit, and soul, and body be preserved entire without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:—To whom be glory and honour and might, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and world without end. Amen.



Cyril of Jerusalem. (1894). Five. In P. Schaff & H. Wace (Eds.), R. W. Church & E. H. Gifford (Trans.), S. Cyril of Jerusalem, S. Gregory Nazianzen (Vol. 7, pp. 153–157). New York: Christian Literature Company.
 
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Athanasius377

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The quote you are using above is off point. He isn't saying that the Eucharist is not the flesh and blood of Christ, but only that the Jews thought he meant to eat his physical body at that time. Cyril taught, just as all the Church Fathers unanimously taught, that the brrad and wine become the body and blood of Christ when blessed. From the Catechism of Cyril:

7. Then having sanctified ourselves by these spiritual Hymns, we beseech the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the Bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is surely sanctified and changed.

8. Then, after the spiritual sacrifice, the bloodless service, is completed, over that sacrifice of propitiation we entreat God for the common peace of the Churches, for the welfare of the world ; for kings; for soldiers and allies; for the sick; for the afflicted; and, in a word, for all who stand in need of succour we all pray and offer this sacrifice.

CHURCH FATHERS: Catechetical Lecture 23 (Cyril of Jerusalem)
Like I posted with David, that lecture is about putting away defilement and an explanation of the liturgy. It mentions the eucharist but is not the main thrust. The lecture I quoted from is an explanation of the Eucharist, meaning my quote was relevant. Not so unanimous after all.


. Even of itself the teaching of the Blessed Paul is sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, of which having been deemed worthy, ye are become of the same body and blood with Christ. For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He brake it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, lie said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?

2. He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood? When called to a bodily marriage, He miraculously wrought that wonderful work; and on the children of the bride-chamber, shall He not much rather be acknowledged to have bestowed the fruition of His Body and Blood?

3. Wherefore with full assurance let us partake as of the Body and Blood of Christ: for in the figure of Bread is given to thee His Body, and in the figure of Wine His Blood; that thou by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, mayest be made of the same body and the same blood with Him. For thus we come to bear Christ in us, because His Body and Blood are distributed through our members; thus it is that, according to the blessed Peter, we became partakers of the divine nature.

4. Christ on a certain occasion discoursing with the Jews said, Except ye eat My flesh and drink My blood, ye have no life in you. They not having heard His saying in a spiritual sense were offended, and went back, supposing that He was inviting them to eat flesh.

5. In the Old Testament also there was shew-bread; but this, as it belonged to the Old Testament, has come to an end; but in the New Testament there is Bread of heaven, and a Cup of salvation, sanctifying soul and body; for as the Bread corresponds to our body, so is the Word appropriate to our soul.

6. Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to thee, yet let faith establish thee. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouch-safed to thee.

7. Also the blessed David shall advise thee the meaning of this, saying, Thou hast prepared a table before me in the presence of them that afflict me. What he says, is to this effect: Before Thy coming, the evil spirits prepared a table for men, polluted and defiled and full of devilish influence; but since Thy coming. O Lord, Thou hast prepared a table before me. When the man says to God, Thou hast prepared before me a table, what other does he indicate but that mystical and spiritual Table, which God hath prepared for us over against, that is, contrary and in opposition to the evil spirits? And very truly; for that had communion with devils, but this, with God. Thou hast anointed my head with oil. With oil He anointed thine head upon thy forehead, for the seal which thou hast of God; that thou mayest be made the engraving of the signet, Holiness unto God. And thy cup intoxicateth me, as very strong. Thou seest that cup here spoken of, which Jesus took in His hands, and gave thanks, and said, This is My blood, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

8. Therefore Solomon also, hinting at this grace, says in Ecclesiastes, Come hither, eat thy bread with joy(that is, the spiritual bread; Come hither, he calls with the call to salvation and blessing), and drink thy wine with a merry heart (that is, the spiritual wine); and let oil be poured out upon thy head (thou sees he alludes even to the mystic Chrism); and let thy garments be always white, for the Lord is well pleased with thy works; for before thou camest to Baptism, thy works were vanity of vanities. But now, having put off thy old garments, and put on those which are spiritually white, thou must be continually robed in white: of course we mean not this, that thou art always to wear white raiment; but thou must be clad in the garments that are truly white and shining and spiritual, that thou mayest say with the blessed Esaias, My soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with a garment of salvation, and put a robe of gladness around me.

9. Having learnt these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, “strengthen thou thine heart,” by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.” And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, mayest thou reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord, and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:—To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen.




Cyril of Jerusalem. (1894). Five. In P. Schaff & H. Wace (Eds.), R. W. Church & E. H. Gifford (Trans.), S. Cyril of Jerusalem, S. Gregory Nazianzen (Vol. 7, pp. 151–152). New York: Christian Literature Company.
 
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Athanasius377

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Yes, it is. We eat from the Lamb of God who is a substitute for us, no one but Gnostics believed that the Body and Blood of Jesus were present in the Eucharist until 1500, even Luther believed in it.
I believe it too but to say the early church was unanimous in its belief on the eucharist is simply to ignore history itself.

24. If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, “and drink His blood, ye have no life in you.” This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us.

Augustine of Hippo. (1887). On Christian Doctrine. In P. Schaff (Ed.), J. F. Shaw (Trans.), St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine (Vol. 2, p. 563). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
 
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HTacianas

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Like I posted with David, that lecture is about putting away defilement and an explanation of the liturgy. It mentions the eucharist but is not the main thrust. The lecture I quoted from is an explanation of the Eucharist, meaning my quote was relevant. Not so unanimous after all.


. Even of itself the teaching of the Blessed Paul is sufficient to give you a full assurance concerning those Divine Mysteries, of which having been deemed worthy, ye are become of the same body and blood with Christ. For you have just heard him say distinctly, That our Lord Jesus Christ in the night in which He was betrayed, took bread, and when He had given thanks He brake it, and gave to His disciples, saying, Take, eat, this is My Body: and having taken the cup and given thanks, lie said, Take, drink, this is My Blood. Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?

2. He once in Cana of Galilee, turned the water into wine, akin to blood, and is it incredible that He should have turned wine into blood? When called to a bodily marriage, He miraculously wrought that wonderful work; and on the children of the bride-chamber, shall He not much rather be acknowledged to have bestowed the fruition of His Body and Blood?

3. Wherefore with full assurance let us partake as of the Body and Blood of Christ: for in the figure of Bread is given to thee His Body, and in the figure of Wine His Blood; that thou by partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, mayest be made of the same body and the same blood with Him. For thus we come to bear Christ in us, because His Body and Blood are distributed through our members; thus it is that, according to the blessed Peter, we became partakers of the divine nature.

4. Christ on a certain occasion discoursing with the Jews said, Except ye eat My flesh and drink My blood, ye have no life in you. They not having heard His saying in a spiritual sense were offended, and went back, supposing that He was inviting them to eat flesh.

5. In the Old Testament also there was shew-bread; but this, as it belonged to the Old Testament, has come to an end; but in the New Testament there is Bread of heaven, and a Cup of salvation, sanctifying soul and body; for as the Bread corresponds to our body, so is the Word appropriate to our soul.

6. Consider therefore the Bread and the Wine not as bare elements, for they are, according to the Lord’s declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ; for even though sense suggests this to thee, yet let faith establish thee. Judge not the matter from the taste, but from faith be fully assured without misgiving, that the Body and Blood of Christ have been vouch-safed to thee.

7. Also the blessed David shall advise thee the meaning of this, saying, Thou hast prepared a table before me in the presence of them that afflict me. What he says, is to this effect: Before Thy coming, the evil spirits prepared a table for men, polluted and defiled and full of devilish influence; but since Thy coming. O Lord, Thou hast prepared a table before me. When the man says to God, Thou hast prepared before me a table, what other does he indicate but that mystical and spiritual Table, which God hath prepared for us over against, that is, contrary and in opposition to the evil spirits? And very truly; for that had communion with devils, but this, with God. Thou hast anointed my head with oil. With oil He anointed thine head upon thy forehead, for the seal which thou hast of God; that thou mayest be made the engraving of the signet, Holiness unto God. And thy cup intoxicateth me, as very strong. Thou seest that cup here spoken of, which Jesus took in His hands, and gave thanks, and said, This is My blood, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

8. Therefore Solomon also, hinting at this grace, says in Ecclesiastes, Come hither, eat thy bread with joy(that is, the spiritual bread; Come hither, he calls with the call to salvation and blessing), and drink thy wine with a merry heart (that is, the spiritual wine); and let oil be poured out upon thy head (thou sees he alludes even to the mystic Chrism); and let thy garments be always white, for the Lord is well pleased with thy works; for before thou camest to Baptism, thy works were vanity of vanities. But now, having put off thy old garments, and put on those which are spiritually white, thou must be continually robed in white: of course we mean not this, that thou art always to wear white raiment; but thou must be clad in the garments that are truly white and shining and spiritual, that thou mayest say with the blessed Esaias, My soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with a garment of salvation, and put a robe of gladness around me.

9. Having learnt these things, and been fully assured that the seeming bread is not bread, though sensible to taste, but the Body of Christ; and that the seeming wine is not wine, though the taste will have it so, but the Blood of Christ; and that of this David sung of old, saying, And bread strengtheneth man’s heart, to make his face to shine with oil, “strengthen thou thine heart,” by partaking thereof as spiritual, and “make the face of thy soul to shine.” And so having it unveiled with a pure conscience, mayest thou reflect as a mirror the glory of the Lord, and proceed from glory to glory, in Christ Jesus our Lord:—To whom be honour, and might, and glory, for ever and ever. Amen.




Cyril of Jerusalem. (1894). Five. In P. Schaff & H. Wace (Eds.), R. W. Church & E. H. Gifford (Trans.), S. Cyril of Jerusalem, S. Gregory Nazianzen (Vol. 7, pp. 151–152). New York: Christian Literature Company.

You posted above:

Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?

You are disproving your own argument.
 
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Athanasius377

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You posted above:

Since then He Himself declared and said of the Bread, This is My Body, who shall dare to doubt any longer? And since He has Himself affirmed and said, This is My Blood, who shall ever hesitate, saying, that it is not His blood?

You are disproving your own argument.
Try reading the whole post again not just the parts you like. His teaching is nuanced and spans the entire lecture which is why I posted it because I know its not in Jurgens. Try following the entire argument and you will see he believes in a spiritual presence and not a corporal presence. So I haven't disproven anything I have written before.

And for the third person in the first thousand years that doesn't believe what you believe about the Eucharist.

Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: “Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood;” describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,—of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood.

Clement of Alexandria. (1885). The Instructor. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) (Vol. 2, p. 219). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.
 
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HTacianas

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Try reading the whole post again not just the parts you like. His teaching is nuanced and spans the entire lecture which is why I posted it because I know its not in Jurgens. Try following the entire argument and you will see he believes in a spiritual presence and not a corporal presence. So I haven't disproven anything I have written before.

And for the third person in the first thousand years that doesn't believe what you believe about the Eucharist.

Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: “Eat ye my flesh, and drink my blood;” describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both,—of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood.

Clement of Alexandria. (1885). The Instructor. In A. Roberts, J. Donaldson, & A. C. Coxe (Eds.), Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) (Vol. 2, p. 219). Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company.

I read your post. Your claim that Cyril did not teach that the bread and wine become the body of Christ is plainly wrong.

"we beseech the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the Bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is surely sanctified and changed."

If it is *changed* what is it changed in to? Why would he say it is changed if not changed into the body and blood of Christ just as he says it is?

You can hold to whatever beliefs you choose to hold to but please don't cloud the issue by falsely stating that any of the Church fathers agree with you when it is so obvious that they don't.
 
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Ken Rank

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In John 6, however, Jesus does no such thing after telling the crowd "I am the bread of life" (John 6:48). In John 6:52, the crowd of Jews gathered to listen to Jesus express their confusion—"How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"—and Jesus instead repeats Himself in more detail—"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and by blood is real drink" (John 6:54-55).
I appreciate the tone. When brothers and sisters in Christ can disagree and remain civil... then the day was not a bad one. Regarding your point, again, I don't see it as you do. While you did a better job of explaining the belief you hold, I still see a metaphor. Is Yeshua a loaf of bread? No... so the use of bread isn't literal because he isn't really bread. If you have this conviction that transubstantiation is real, then I have no desire to talk you out of it. I simply do not have that same conviction.

Another context clue is the reaction the crowd has when Jesus repeats Himself—they leave, saying, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" (John 6:60b). Since we are told the crowd was made of practicing Jews, who by religious law were forbidden to consume blood, they likely understood that this was not a metaphor.
There were many times when he spoke in parables (abstract) or metaphors (abstract) and even those who walked with him had no understanding at all what he was saying. For example, when we read the parable of the wheat and tares, after the crowds left his disciples came to him and had him explain it. And there, by the way, wheat and tares were abstract words being used to point to literal people. So in John 6, you see him hinting at transubstantiation while I see him talking about bread being life. The manna (a form of bread) came out of heaven and sustained the Israelites while they were in the wilderness. But it wasn't the "bread" that gave eternal life. Yeshua was that "bread," and it isn't us eating him that gives us life... it is the WORK HE DID in reversing the curse of sin and death incurred on all creation by Adam that is what gives us life. His work is the key... us "eating him" or "consuming him" is, I believe, is us absorbing Him and His words to such a degree that we live for Him and reflect Him to the world around us. But the idea that we have to eat literal bread in order to live seems akin to the Germans in Indiana Jones thinking that drinking water out of a cup gave them life.

I would also ask, "who were the Jews that didn't understand his words?" In this case, in John 6, it isn't his disciples who seem to have the issue, but "other Jews" who were part of that synagogue. Ultimately... did they follow Shammai's teaching (letter of the law) or Hillel (spirit of the law)? Because pretty much every Jew in a position of leadership in the land in that day was an adherent of one of those two schools of thought. Most of the negative reaction and rebuking of Pharisees, was done toward Beit Shammai (school of Shammai). Only on the topic of divorce were the Pharisees tied to Beit Hillel rebuked.

One could argue that this was not how John meant this passage to be interpreted, particularly since it is set prior to the Last Supper, but I do not think that is a particularly strong argument. John's student, Ignatius of Antioch, understood the visible elements of communion to be the literal Body and Blood of Christ as well. Arguably, if Ignatius was wrong, John would have corrected him.
You would think. I am not as familiar with the depth of early church father quotes as you might be. Ignatius might have taken it that way, but Ignatius isn't canon either. And, I would probably want to see his quote, in context, in the language it has been preserved in. Even then it likely wouldn't change my mind because it is extra-biblical... but I would certainly consider it.

I don't think you came to the conclusion you did because you don't take the Bible seriously, and I don't think you are less saved than me for being a memorialist. I also don't pretend to know how it is possible for the bread and wine to literally be Christ's flesh and blood prior to His own body being broken and His own blood being shed. I just don't think, based on biblical and historical context, that your interpretation is correct.
Fair enough. Like I said, I really don't care to be the reason you stop doing what you are doing. If that is what you believe, then follow it. One of us is wrong... or perhaps we both are incorrect? I can handle that, I think you can too. None of us are 100% correct in our beliefs. Enough Christians seem to think they are... but we ALL will stand before God one day and give a loud groan of anguish as we realize where we fell short. He wrote through Jeremiah that He would correct us all in due course.... so we should probably remain a little more humble in how we treat one another. :)

Blessings.
Ken
 
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com7fy8

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When the church discovers someone doesn't have enough love. What is the punishment or disciplinary action and what is the duration of this punishment?
What I trust is > if someone is lacking in love, we do not just punish the person, but we minister for the person to be corrected and to mature in God's love.

"My brethren, if anyone is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted." (Galatians 6:1)

Actually, Paul told the Thessalonians to abound all the more in love (1 Thessalonians 3:11-4:1); so Paul was saying that even the Thessalonians did not have enough love!! And he simply encouraged them to love all the more abundantly.

So, we all need to grow more in God's love.
 
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com7fy8

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After the church decides that a person needs to be punished or disciplined, how does it measure the punishment or disciplinary action needed? Is this something Jesus Christ would be extremely better at measuring or is the church members equal to Jesus Christ?
In cases where punishment is needed, no we are not equal to Jesus, but we can obey how He directs us to punish a person. And it is with the hope of helping and restoring the person. Usually, then we do not punish, but we use our personal example (1 Peter 5:3, 1 Peter 3:1-4) and encouragement to help a person who is somehow wrong.

Plus, we pray for the person, knowing how only God can do all which the person really needs.

And we understand how punishment alone can not bring the result which is really needed. It is maybe at best a way of rebuking the person, in order to break the person away from however he or she is wrong, but then we are ready to restore the person and minister for him or her to grow in Jesus and do better.

And it is good to have example in the church, so the person can know readily when he or she is going against our good example. So > prevention is better than punishing :)
 
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Athanasius377

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I read your post. Your claim that Cyril did not teach that the bread and wine become the body of Christ is plainly wrong.

"we beseech the merciful God to send forth His Holy Spirit upon the gifts lying before Him; that He may make the Bread the Body of Christ, and the Wine the Blood of Christ ; for whatsoever the Holy Ghost has touched, is surely sanctified and changed."

If it is *changed* what is it changed in to? Why would he say it is changed if not changed into the body and blood of Christ just as he says it is?

You can hold to whatever beliefs you choose to hold to but please don't cloud the issue by falsely stating that any of the Church fathers agree with you when it is so obvious that they don't.
What ever that change is it isn’t a corporal presence. The problem you are having is that you were told the fathers unanimously say one thing only to find out that isn’t so. I am letting Cyril speak for himself whilst you are trying to shoehorn your doctrine into his writings. You quote John 6:53 as evidence of a corporal presence and Cyril quotes the same verse as evidence against it. So I am not clouding the issue I am elucidating the issue for those that may want to know. The fathers were a lot of things but unanimous is not one of them. So you could say The church teaches or some of the fathers say or st so and so taught x but to say they were unanimous simply defies the writings we have.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Ah yea... what you can't do is show me anyone who agrees with you before the year 100AD. Yeshua said and did what he did at a Passover Sedar. He held up a specific cup and a specific piece of matzah during specific times of that meal and said what he said about them. What he never said was, "do this weekly." He said, "when you do this," which meant "during your future Passover meals." Communion should be done once a year, during the same meal, using the same cup (the 3rd of 4) and the same bread (afikomen) and you can't show anyone doing anything different until after 100AD.

I really don't care what you do as long as what you are doing is based on a firm conviction based on the information you have. But to demean others or infer that they are not as serious about Scripture as you are... runs pretty close (if not nails head on) the definition of bearing false witness.

Ken, I think you know my stand on this. It was NOT THE Passover seder, it was a Seudah haMefsekhet...a pre-seder...literally a "last supper" before the 14th fast. Yeshua would have kept the fast of the firstborn on the 14th from sunrise to sunset...during the trial and on the cross. Regarding Sunday communion, it is to commemorate His resurrection, pure and simple. Is it done at Passover, yes, on Holy Thursday in Orthodoxy.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I see it, clearly, as a memorial and that the work is done and THAT WORK is what is memorialized in the pictures presented in the bread and wine. I don't see it as a repeating event week after week.

...and that work, His resurrection, it memorialized every Sunday to commemorate it.
 
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Ken Rank

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Ken, I think you know my stand on this. It was NOT THE Passover seder, it was a Seudah haMefsekhet...a pre-seder...literally a "last supper" before the 14th fast. Yeshua would have kept the fast of the firstborn on the 14th from sunrise to sunset...during the trial and on the cross. Regarding Sunday communion, it is to commemorate His resurrection, pure and simple. Is it done at Passover, yes, on Holy Thursday in Orthodoxy.
I do know your stand and basically have the same view. But when speaking to those who aren't as familiar with the culture and the practices at that time... it was just easier to say Passover. And I do believe he meant Passover (in terms of "doing this" looking forward in time) as there is enough indication that he was following a first century Hagaddah. The cups, what appears to be the Afikomen, even the singing of certain Psalms was part of that order of events. But it was on a different night, it had to be. As far as the rest... doing it every week is fine as a memorial of his resurrection... I would think Romans 14:5-6 cover this if that wasn't his exact intent, and if it was his exact intent and I am wrong, I trust he will show me in due time.

Blessings.
Ken
 
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Ken Rank

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...and that work, His resurrection, it memorialized every Sunday to commemorate it.
I can't message you and I wanted to ask you a question but it isn't for the rest of the members. If you can send me a message... or look me up on Facebook or my email is my name at gmail. Thanks.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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I can't message you and I wanted to ask you a question but it isn't for the rest of the members. If you can send me a message... or look me up on Facebook or my email is my name at gmail. Thanks.

Message sent
 
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HTacianas

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What ever that change is it isn’t a corporal presence. The problem you are having is that you were told the fathers unanimously say one thing only to find out that isn’t so. I am letting Cyril speak for himself whilst you are trying to shoehorn your doctrine into his writings. You quote John 6:53 as evidence of a corporal presence and Cyril quotes the same verse as evidence against it. So I am not clouding the issue I am elucidating the issue for those that may want to know. The fathers were a lot of things but unanimous is not one of them. So you could say The church teaches or some of the fathers say or st so and so taught x but to say they were unanimous simply defies the writings we have.

You are certainly not allowing Cyril to speak for himself. You are quote mining trying to find something among the Church fathers to support your own opinion and simply ignoring anything and everything to the contrary.

When the man says we ask the Holy Spirit to change the bread into the body of Christ and that change happens please don't claim we don't know what change he's talking about.
 
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