Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

TribulationSigns said:

Claninja is correct the Hades is not the lake of fire itself as Hades will be cast into it. This is the Second Death. However he, as well as all preterists, are wrong with the timing becasue they believe everything must have occured in 70AD. Read the context again!

Revelation 20:7-15 KJV
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, Claninja, if you believe that Satan has come out of the bottomless pit in 70AD to gather physical armies upon the physical city of Jersualem in 70AD before casting into the Lake of Fire ...then my question for you when did Satan cast into the bottomless pit for thousand years in your [ahem] preterism doctrine?

Revelation 20:1-3 KJV
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

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Grip Docility said:

What? God’s Return is in relation to God. Those verses pertain to man.

Great verses. Fallacious argument employed.

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8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

and Leviticus 25 we also read:


Leviticus 25
The sabbatical year
25 The Lord said to Moses on Mount Sinai, 2 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: Once you enter the land that I am giving you, the land must celebrate a sabbath rest to the Lord. 3 You will plant your fields for six years, and prune your vineyards and gather their crops for six years.4 But in the seventh year the land will have a special sabbath rest, a Sabbath to the Lord: You must not plant your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 You must not harvest the secondary growth of your produce or gather the grapes of your freely growing vines. It will be a year of special rest for the land. 6 Whatever the land produces during its sabbath will be your food—for you, for your male and female servants, and for your hired laborers and foreign guests who live with you, 7 as well as for your livestock and for the wild animals in your land. All of the land’s produce can be eaten.

The Jubilee year
8 Count off seven weeks of years—that is, seven times seven—so that the seven weeks of years totals forty-nine years. 9 Then have the trumpet blown on the tenth day of the seventh month. Have the trumpet blown throughout your land on the Day of Reconciliation. 10 You will make the fiftieth year holy, proclaiming freedom throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It will be a Jubilee year for you: each of you must return to your family property and to your extended family. 11 The fiftieth year will be a Jubilee year for you. Do not plant, do not harvest the secondary growth, and do not gather from the freely growing vines12 because it is a Jubilee: it will be holy to you. You can eat only the produce directly out of the field. 13 Each of you must return to your family property in this year of Jubilee.

.......but the Israelites didn't honor the Sabbatical years of allowing the land to lay fallow when they were first in the Promised Land - and for this - they were in exile in Egypt to make up the time. Their time of exile was equivalent to the time they'd ignored. IOW - it was an "even trade" payment of time. Not only that - but the time after their exile is referenced in Sabbaths (in the book of Daniel).

“The land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its Sabbaths while it is made desolate without them.” (Lev. 26:43)
​

As those 70 years of captivity were ending and the land had received its Sabbath rest, Daniel prays for his people and is given a prophetic time explaining Israel’s imminent deliverance from the Babylonian captivity and yet at the same time, encompassing her coming Messiah within a period of 70 sevens in which there would be a greater rest and restoration for Israel.

​

mkgal1 said:

I wasn't referring to God's return. I'm referring to His adherence to time in general. So....let me see if I understand your argument. Are you saying that God is "outside of time - and time doesn't apply to Him" yet He holds humanity (or - at least the Israelites of the OT) to a strict time table?

In Exodus 20:8-11 we read:

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 for in six days Jehovah made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore Jehovah blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

and Leviticus 25 we also read:


Leviticus 25
The sabbatical year
25 The Lord said to Moses on Mount Sinai, 2 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: Once you enter the land that I am giving you, the land must celebrate a sabbath rest to the Lord. 3 You will plant your fields for six years, and prune your vineyards and gather their crops for six years.4 But in the seventh year the land will have a special sabbath rest, a Sabbath to the Lord: You must not plant your fields or prune your vineyards. 5 You must not harvest the secondary growth of your produce or gather the grapes of your freely growing vines. It will be a year of special rest for the land. 6 Whatever the land produces during its sabbath will be your food—for you, for your male and female servants, and for your hired laborers and foreign guests who live with you, 7 as well as for your livestock and for the wild animals in your land. All of the land’s produce can be eaten.

The Jubilee year
8 Count off seven weeks of years—that is, seven times seven—so that the seven weeks of years totals forty-nine years. 9 Then have the trumpet blown on the tenth day of the seventh month. Have the trumpet blown throughout your land on the Day of Reconciliation. 10 You will make the fiftieth year holy, proclaiming freedom throughout the land to all its inhabitants. It will be a Jubilee year for you: each of you must return to your family property and to your extended family. 11 The fiftieth year will be a Jubilee year for you. Do not plant, do not harvest the secondary growth, and do not gather from the freely growing vines12 because it is a Jubilee: it will be holy to you. You can eat only the produce directly out of the field. 13 Each of you must return to your family property in this year of Jubilee.

.......but the Israelites didn't honor the Sabbatical years of allowing the land to lay fallow when they were first in the Promised Land - and for this - they were in exile in Egypt to make up the time. Their time of exile was equivalent to the time they'd ignored. IOW - it was an "even trade" payment of time. Not only that - but the time after their exile is referenced in Sabbaths (in the book of Daniel).

“The land will be abandoned by them, and will make up for its Sabbaths while it is made desolate without them.” (Lev. 26:43)
​

As those 70 years of captivity were ending and the land had received its Sabbath rest, Daniel prays for his people and is given a prophetic time explaining Israel’s imminent deliverance from the Babylonian captivity and yet at the same time, encompassing her coming Messiah within a period of 70 sevens in which there would be a greater rest and restoration for Israel.

​

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TribulationSigns said:

Ahh, that is where your confusion comes from.

The confusion exists because so many Christians are unaware that there are several ways that this Greek word [genea] that is often translated generation, is used in the Bible. It is often in contrast to extra-Biblical or secular dictionary definitions. First of all, this word is from the root [genos], meaning a common birth or kin relationship, such as family. By extension, it is used in the Scriptures in four very distinct, and yet intimately related ways.

1. Through kin or family, it denotes a particular member's patriarchal life span (generation) or related time period.
2. Through kin or family, it denotes a physical family's ancestry, posterity, lineage or genealogy.
3. Through kin or family, it denotes a spiritual family ancestry, as a kindred of Satan or evil.
4. Through kin or family, it denotes a spiritual family ancestry, as a kindred of Christ or righteousness.

These are four related and yet very distinct and Biblically justifiable applications of this word. The word translated generation is unambiguously used in the Bible in all these contexts. Even most of those holding to a Preterism Eschatology will not deny this fact.

Moreover, there are actually four words that are translated "generation" in the New Testament. They are {genesis], [gennema], [genos] and [genea]. The root of all three refer back to family or kindred Of course, "by extension" it can also mean the period of a family line, or even a Patriarch's offspring, but the root is family. It all started back to Genesis:

Genesis 3:14-15​

• "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
• And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The two seeds speak of two distinct families. The seed or family that springs forth of Christ, and the seed or family that springs forth of the Serpent. Two distinct posterity or families. That is why Christ spoke of the wicked as the generation [gennema] of vipers. That Greek word conveys or indicates offspring or progeny. Christ was very literally calling them the spiritual children of the serpent. When Christ said that the blood of all the prophets that was shed from the foundation of the world will be required of this generation, it cannot logically, rationally or Biblically mean this particular generation of people standing there at the time. So what it does mean should be self-evident. It refers only to the generation or kin of Satan. Those of the lineage or family of Satan, whom Christ called the seed or children of the Devil. Moreover, let's be clear that this phrase I use (generation of evil) is not something that I privately dreamed up to support my personal view of a generation, it is a phrase that was divinely inspired and inerrant in its usage.

Luke 11:29​

• "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."

This Greek word [genea] is the exact same word from the root meaning kin. It is the same word found in Matthew chapter 24 translated generation. Was Christ saying there would no sign given to the wise men, the Apostles, or the 70 disciples that He sent out to witness two by two? Of course not. Yet they were physically part of the literal span of time of that day. But they were not part of generation that Christ was speaking of. The evil and adulterous generation (family) of the Serpent shall not receive a sign except for that of His crucifixion, as Jonas the prophet (the Scripture record) illustrated spending three days and nights in a fish. While the generation or family of Christ indeed have seen the signs (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:4) of their deliverance. This generation defines a continuing moral classification of people, as illustrated by many Scriptures. That should be proof enough for any logical thinking person that this generation was not referring to men of one specific time period. If we only understand the word generation to mean those living there at the time (as some insist we must), then none of the Apostles, nor anyone else in that day or that generation could escape the damnation of hell. The truth is a lot less complicated, and in total agreement will the whole of Scripture. Not one jot or tittle of it shall fail until all be fulfilled.

Luke 21:32-34​

• "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
• And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Again, this word translated generation is [genea], same as it is in Matthew 24 often used to express family relationship or posterity. This definition is also clearly demonstrated in the Septuagint, where in passages like Genesis 43:7 declaring, "The man asked us straitly of our kindred," the word kindred is [genea]. Or in Numbers 10:30, "I will depart to my own kindred." Again, Kindred is the word [genea]. Likewise in Leviticus 20:18, "Both shall be cut off from their people." Here, the word people is [genea]. I quote the Septuagint only to demonstrate that clearly, the meaning of this word was clearly known of old, and used to denote a family relationship. Thus it cannot be scholastically alleged that it must mean the short term generation of a man’s life.

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jgr said:

Already debunked here.

"Genea" is Greek, appearing only in the NT. The OT word for kindred is the Hebrew moledeth. It does not equate to "genea".

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Grip Docility said:

The Greek doesn’t have to be argued over.

It’s as clear as clear can be in proper Paragraph, and topical context that the “This Generation” argument is ignoring topical and paragraph context of Chronology to focus on a Greek word that clearly has its place in Future events!

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ewq1938 said:

Jesus is NOT reigning over His enemies now - according to Scripture

To reign means to rule over people and have complete control.

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jgr said:

Were the disciples wrong to heed Jesus' warning?

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mkgal1 said:

Just because His enemies have free will - in my belief - doesn't mean He is not already victorious of how things are going to end. ISTM that this stance leaves room that our hope is just a wish.

We're told in Scripture that the "last enemy" is death.....correct? Do you not believe (as the Orthodox do) that He has already "defeated death through His death"? His enemies (as I read in Scripture) aren't PEOPLE - it's sin and death. And aren't those defeated?

Romans 6:9 ~ We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over Him.


Sin no longer has dominion over us (another enemy of His):
1 John 3:8 ~ Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil



His dominion is eternal and lasts throughout the generations:​

Psalm 145:13 ~ Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and your dominion endures throughout all generations. [The Lord is faithful in all his words and kind in all his works.]



Jesus believed that He had been given ALL authority in heaven and earth:
Matthew 28:18 ~ Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

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First Corinthians 15:26–28 says, “The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For ‘He has put all things under His feet.’ But when He says ‘all things are put under Him,’ it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”

Now note Hebrews 2:8ff: “For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we do not yet see all things put under Him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

Both 1 Corinthians and Hebrews harken back to Psalm 8, in which the “son of man” fulfills the destiny of the Second Adam and receives from me Father dominion over creation. This placing of all things in or under subjection to Christ has both a present and a future dimension. In His ascension, Christ was invested as the King of kings and Lord of lords. He is already at the right hand of the Father and reigns over all creation. But the whole of creation is not yet in willing submission or subjection to Him. In short, Christ has rebellious subjects. Satan himself is still in rebellion.

The connection between Satan and death is important: “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb. 2:14–15).

Here it is declared that the devil had the power of death until that power was wrenched away from him by Christ. We must remember that any power or authority Satan ever has is a delegated authority, as the ultimate authority over death and everything else is God. But Satan’s delegated authority over death is taken from him by Christ. The irony is that Christ’s victory over the devil and the power of death is accomplished by means of death. In His death, Jesus is victorious over death. Death cannot hold Him. ~ The Last Enemy by R.C. Sproul

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Grip Docility said:

A day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day.

2 Peter 3 has you your answer... I didn’t write it.

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Grip Docility said:

What? God’s Return is in relation to God. Those verses pertain to man.

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Grip Docility said:

He also said His Kingdom wasn’t of this earth. You’re not applying those verses correctly.

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Grip Docility said:

A day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day.

2 Peter 3 has you your answer... I didn’t write it.

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parousia70 said:

So When Jesus said, in realtion to His return:
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

We are to apply the 2 Peter 3 - a Thousand years is as a day- Rule?

So the correct interpretation, based on your answer above, would be:
"33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near to God, but still thousands of years away to man" ?

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parousia70 said:

So When Jesus said, in realtion to His return:
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

We are to apply the 2 Peter 3 - a Thousand years is as a day- Rule?

So the correct interpretation, based on your answer above, would be:
"33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near to God, but still thousands of years away to man" ?

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mkgal1 said:

.....and in the context of Him saying that - He said, "if His Kingdom WERE of this world, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews".

Instead....in God's Kingdom: meekness is power and those will inherit the earth; the first will the last, and the last will be first; Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven; Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted;Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled; those that give, have the most....etc. It's an upside-down Kingdom of His (but we can enter it HERE, on earth, through our heart attitudes).

Jesus ALSO said, "For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:21) and "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you" (Matthew 12:28)

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mkgal1 said:

Do the same rules apply to "the time is far away" as well? Or what about when a specific number of days are given, as in Daniel 12?

Daniel 12:11 ~ From the time the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.​

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jgr said:

Were the disciples wrong to heed Jesus' warning?

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Grip Docility said:

The disciples Died by persecution, all accept for John, who was boiled in oil and managed to be exiled alive to the Isle of Patmos. Not sure what you’re insinuating here.

Paul went back to Jerusalem after that warning with other disciples, according to your “implication”.... along you’re reasoning, did Paul ignore Jesus?

Galatians 1:18-20

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Matthew 24:16 ~ ......then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14 ~ And when you see the abomination of the desolation, standing where it should not (the one reading, let him understand), then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains

Luke 21:21-24 ~ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Pella: A Window on Survival ------> Link to article: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...rchaeology-places/pella-a-window-on-survival/


Church Timeline/Apostolic Era:

• 
  
  
  • 37 Joseph of Arimathea travels to Britain and lands in Glastonbury.
  • 40 Apostle Barnabas sent from Jerusalem to Antioch to strengthen community after persecution when church leaders flee city.
  • ca.42 Apostle Paul's ecstasy to the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2-4).
  • ca.46-48 Apostle Paul's first missionary journey, with Apostle Barnabas (Acts 13 - 14).
  • 49 Apostolic Council of Jerusalem rules that Gentiles do not have to become Jews before becoming Christians.
  • ca.49-52 Apostle Paul's second missionary journey, with Apostle Silas (Acts 15:39 - 18:22).
  • ca.50 Death of Gamaliel, a leading authority in the Sanhedrin and teacher of the Apostle Paul (Acts 22:3).
  • 50 Apostle Matthew finishes the Gospel of Matthew in Aramaic.
  • 52 Apostle Thomas arrives in Kerala, introducing Christianity to India.
  • ca.53-57 Apostle Paul's third missionary journey (Acts 18:23 - 21:16).
  • ca.59-62 Apostle Paul's fourth missionary journey, voyage to Rome (Acts 27 - 28:16).
  • 62 Martyrdom of Apostle James the Just; crucifixion of Apostle Andrew in Patras.
  • 63 Aristobulus consecrated as first bishop of Britain.
  • 64-68 First of ten major persections of the Early Church, under Emperor Nero.
  • 66 Flight of the Christian community in Jerusalem to Pella, Antioch, and other places in the Decapolis.
  • 66-73 Jewish-Roman war.

Can you find Judea on any modern-day map?


​

Grip Docility said:

This is just fat too circular and beyond absurd to perpetuate.

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Grip Docility said:

This is just fat too circular and beyond absurd to perpetuate.

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Pella: A Window on Survival ------> Link to article:https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...rchaeology-places/pella-a-window-on-survival/


Church Timeline/Apostolic Era:

• • 37 Joseph of Arimathea travels to Britain and lands in Glastonbury.
  • 40 Apostle Barnabas sent from Jerusalem to Antioch to strengthen community after persecution when church leaders flee city.
  • ca.42 Apostle Paul's ecstasy to the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2-4).
  • ca.46-48 Apostle Paul's first missionary journey, with Apostle Barnabas (Acts 13 - 14).
  • 49 Apostolic Council of Jerusalem rules that Gentiles do not have to become Jews before becoming Christians.
  • ca.49-52 Apostle Paul's second missionary journey, with Apostle Silas (Acts 15:39 - 18:22).
  • ca.50 Death of Gamaliel, a leading authority in the Sanhedrin and teacher of the Apostle Paul (Acts 22:3).
  • 50 Apostle Matthew finishes the Gospel of Matthew in Aramaic.
  • 52 Apostle Thomas arrives in Kerala, introducing Christianity to India.
  • ca.53-57 Apostle Paul's third missionary journey (Acts 18:23 - 21:16).
  • ca.59-62 Apostle Paul's fourth missionary journey, voyage to Rome (Acts 27 - 28:16).
  • 62 Martyrdom of Apostle James the Just; crucifixion of Apostle Andrew in Patras.
  • 63 Aristobulus consecrated as first bishop of Britain.
  • 64-68 First of ten major persections of the Early Church, under Emperor Nero.
  • 66 Flight of the Christian community in Jerusalem to Pella, Antioch, and other places in the Decapolis.
  • 66-73 Jewish-Roman war.

mkgal1 said:

@Grip Docility - you forgot to respond to this part:


The early church survived by fleeing to the mountains of Pella (as Jesus had instructed them to do).


Matthew 24:16 ~ ......then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14 ~ And when you see the abomination of the desolation, standing where it should not (the one reading, let him understand), then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains

Luke 21:21-24 ~ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Pella: A Window on Survival ------> Link to article:https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...rchaeology-places/pella-a-window-on-survival/


Church Timeline/Apostolic Era:

• • 37 Joseph of Arimathea travels to Britain and lands in Glastonbury.
  • 40 Apostle Barnabas sent from Jerusalem to Antioch to strengthen community after persecution when church leaders flee city.
  • ca.42 Apostle Paul's ecstasy to the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2-4).
  • ca.46-48 Apostle Paul's first missionary journey, with Apostle Barnabas (Acts 13 - 14).
  • 49 Apostolic Council of Jerusalem rules that Gentiles do not have to become Jews before becoming Christians.
  • ca.49-52 Apostle Paul's second missionary journey, with Apostle Silas (Acts 15:39 - 18:22).
  • ca.50 Death of Gamaliel, a leading authority in the Sanhedrin and teacher of the Apostle Paul (Acts 22:3).
  • 50 Apostle Matthew finishes the Gospel of Matthew in Aramaic.
  • 52 Apostle Thomas arrives in Kerala, introducing Christianity to India.
  • ca.53-57 Apostle Paul's third missionary journey (Acts 18:23 - 21:16).
  • ca.59-62 Apostle Paul's fourth missionary journey, voyage to Rome (Acts 27 - 28:16).
  • 62 Martyrdom of Apostle James the Just; crucifixion of Apostle Andrew in Patras.
  • 63 Aristobulus consecrated as first bishop of Britain.
  • 64-68 First of ten major persections of the Early Church, under Emperor Nero.
  • 66 Flight of the Christian community in Jerusalem to Pella, Antioch, and other places in the Decapolis.
  • 66-73 Jewish-Roman war.

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parousia70 said:

That's mighty convenient.

the only reason it appears circular is because of your unwillingness to demonstrate any consistency in your interpretation of the word.

Can you?
Which is it?
Is "near" in Matt 24:33 Near to God, but far away to men, because, as you claim, it is in relation to his return?

Or is near in Matt 24:33 actually Near in relation to men, even though it applies to His return?

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mkgal1 said:

As I believe I've posted a few times - this understanding is very new to me (and I definitely am far behind when it comes to modern politics and geography). When I look up maps of "Judea", I only see ancient maps - nothing modern. Can you show me? Even if it's there - it's still not any proof that it exists because of fulfilled prophecy.

But you side-stepped the question that jgr asked - about the followers of Jesus fleeing to the mountains based on His instruction. Do you believe they were wrong to follow His instruction? Did they misunderstand Him in believing those words were for them?

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mkgal1 said:

@Grip Docility - you forgot to respond to this part:


The early church survived by fleeing to the mountains of Pella (as Jesus had instructed them to do).


Matthew 24:16 ~ ......then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14 ~ And when you see the abomination of the desolation, standing where it should not (the one reading, let him understand), then those in Judea, let them flee to the mountains

Luke 21:21-24 ~ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Pella: A Window on Survival ------> Link to article:https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...rchaeology-places/pella-a-window-on-survival/


Church Timeline/Apostolic Era:

• • 37 Joseph of Arimathea travels to Britain and lands in Glastonbury.
  • 40 Apostle Barnabas sent from Jerusalem to Antioch to strengthen community after persecution when church leaders flee city.
  • ca.42 Apostle Paul's ecstasy to the third heaven (2 Cor.12:2-4).
  • ca.46-48 Apostle Paul's first missionary journey, with Apostle Barnabas (Acts 13 - 14).
  • 49 Apostolic Council of Jerusalem rules that Gentiles do not have to become Jews before becoming Christians.
  • ca.49-52 Apostle Paul's second missionary journey, with Apostle Silas (Acts 15:39 - 18:22).
  • ca.50 Death of Gamaliel, a leading authority in the Sanhedrin and teacher of the Apostle Paul (Acts 22:3).
  • 50 Apostle Matthew finishes the Gospel of Matthew in Aramaic.
  • 52 Apostle Thomas arrives in Kerala, introducing Christianity to India.
  • ca.53-57 Apostle Paul's third missionary journey (Acts 18:23 - 21:16).
  • ca.59-62 Apostle Paul's fourth missionary journey, voyage to Rome (Acts 27 - 28:16).
  • 62 Martyrdom of Apostle James the Just; crucifixion of Apostle Andrew in Patras.
  • 63 Aristobulus consecrated as first bishop of Britain.
  • 64-68 First of ten major persections of the Early Church, under Emperor Nero.
  • 66 Flight of the Christian community in Jerusalem to Pella, Antioch, and other places in the Decapolis.
  • 66-73 Jewish-Roman war.

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