Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Grip Docility said:

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. .

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Don't you interpret "near" to mean "still thousands of years away"?

Grip Docility said:

So you’re saying the fig tree leaves were tender, as in budding... when in reality, they were withering and got struck down?

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Luke 21
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

There was no particular significance to the fig tree.

The disciples interpreted the parable as part of Jesus' warning, acted upon it, and saved themselves.

parousia70 said:

Don't you interpret "near" to mean "still thousands of years away"?

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I don’t. It equates to Israel re-emerging.

It’s a sign of the times.

The destruction of Jerusalem has nothing to do with the cursed fig tree being withered. One is happening in the Future, the other is now past.

The fig tree is Unbelieving Israel. The Physical lineage Paul specifies in Romans 9:1-6.

Grip Docility said:

The fig tree is Unbelieving Israel. The Physical lineage Paul specifies in Romans 8:1-6.

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Who then are "all the trees" in Lukes version?:
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees."

Grip Docility said:

I don’t.

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So Near means Near here too?
James 5:8
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near

Or does Near miraculously change meaning from Literally near to Thousands of years away in the James Passage above?

parousia70 said:

So Near means Near here too?
James 5:8
8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near

Or does Near miraculously change meaning from Literally near to Thousands of years away in the James Passage above?

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2 Peter 3 is clear.

You’re not factoring in Peters writings.

Grip Docility said:

The fig tree is Unbelieving Israel.

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If the Fig tree is Israel, who then is the Olive Tree in Romans 11?

parousia70 said:

If the Fig tree is Israel, who then is the Olive Tree in Romans 11?

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The Cultivated Tree. Jesus...

Israel was grafted into God. Then, the Unbelieving were broken off, and all were Grafted into the New Man!

Ephesians 2 ... New Man

Israel... Not the BOC

The BOC unites in the “Jerusalem Above”...

We are not in the Jerusalem Above until we cross the veil.

jgr said:

Luke 21
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

There was no particular significance to the fig tree.

The disciples interpreted the parable as part of Jesus' warning, acted upon it, and saved themselves.

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Really?

Matthew 21:18-22, Mark 11:12-14

Grip Docility said:

2 Peter 3 is clear.

You’re not factoring in Peters writings.

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You seem to be randomly applying polar opposite meanings to the word near when it is used in different places, simply to suit your theology.

Perhaps you could elucidate for us where the Bible teaches you to apply one meaning to the word near when you see it in one place, the apply an exactly polar opposite meaning to the same word near when you see it somewhere else?

The only reason I can see for you to do that is to make scripture conform to your view.

parousia70 said:

You seem to be randomly applying polar opposite meanings to the word near when it is used in different places, simply to suit your theology.

Perhaps you could elucidate for us where the Bible teaches you to apply one meaning to the word near when you see it in one place, the apply an exactly polar opposite meaning to the same word near when you see it somewhere else?

The only reason I can see for you to do that is to make scripture conform to your view.

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A day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day.

2 Peter 3 has you your answer... I didn’t write it.

Grip Docility said:

Really?

Matthew 21:18-22, Mark 11:12-14

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The fig tree is included with "all the trees" in Luke 21:29.

Are "all the trees" unbelieving Israel as well?

jgr said:

The fig tree is included with "all the trees" in Luke 21:29.

Are "all the trees" unbelieving Israel as well?

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So Jesus cursed all trees? All trees are Anethema?

False argument

Sheol is the place of the Unbelieving dead.

Hades is the lake of fire.

Grip Docility said:

A day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day.

2 Peter 3 has you your answer... I didn’t write it.

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So Jesus is still in His tomb? It's not been 3k years yet

Grip Docility said:

Hades is the lake of fire.

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Incorrect, hades is not the same as the lake of fire, for hades is thrown into the lake of fire.

revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire

jgr said:

Where does the definition of "genea" in Matthew 24:34 include "spiritual family"?

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Ahh, that is where your confusion comes from.

The confusion exists because so many Christians are unaware that there are several ways that this Greek word [genea] that is often translated generation, is used in the Bible. It is often in contrast to extra-Biblical or secular dictionary definitions. First of all, this word is from the root [genos], meaning a common birth or kin relationship, such as family. By extension, it is used in the Scriptures in four very distinct, and yet intimately related ways.

1. Through kin or family, it denotes a particular member's patriarchal life span (generation) or related time period.
2. Through kin or family, it denotes a physical family's ancestry, posterity, lineage or genealogy.
3. Through kin or family, it denotes a spiritual family ancestry, as a kindred of Satan or evil.
4. Through kin or family, it denotes a spiritual family ancestry, as a kindred of Christ or righteousness.

These are four related and yet very distinct and Biblically justifiable applications of this word. The word translated generation is unambiguously used in the Bible in all these contexts. Even most of those holding to a Preterism Eschatology will not deny this fact.

Moreover, there are actually four words that are translated "generation" in the New Testament. They are {genesis], [gennema], [genos] and [genea]. The root of all three refer back to family or kindred Of course, "by extension" it can also mean the period of a family line, or even a Patriarch's offspring, but the root is family. It all started back to Genesis:

• "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
• And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

The two seeds speak of two distinct families. The seed or family that springs forth of Christ, and the seed or family that springs forth of the Serpent. Two distinct posterity or families. That is why Christ spoke of the wicked as the generation [gennema] of vipers. That Greek word conveys or indicates offspring or progeny. Christ was very literally calling them the spiritual children of the serpent. When Christ said that the blood of all the prophets that was shed from the foundation of the world will be required of this generation, it cannot logically, rationally or Biblically mean this particular generation of people standing there at the time. So what it does mean should be self-evident. It refers only to the generation or kin of Satan. Those of the lineage or family of Satan, whom Christ called the seed or children of the Devil. Moreover, let's be clear that this phrase I use (generation of evil) is not something that I privately dreamed up to support my personal view of a generation, it is a phrase that was divinely inspired and inerrant in its usage.

• "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet."

This Greek word [genea] is the exact same word from the root meaning kin. It is the same word found in Matthew chapter 24 translated generation. Was Christ saying there would no sign given to the wise men, the Apostles, or the 70 disciples that He sent out to witness two by two? Of course not. Yet they were physically part of the literal span of time of that day. But they were not part of generation that Christ was speaking of. The evil and adulterous generation (family) of the Serpent shall not receive a sign except for that of His crucifixion, as Jonas the prophet (the Scripture record) illustrated spending three days and nights in a fish. While the generation or family of Christ indeed have seen the signs (Mark 16:20, Hebrews 2:4) of their deliverance. This generation defines a continuing moral classification of people, as illustrated by many Scriptures. That should be proof enough for any logical thinking person that this generation was not referring to men of one specific time period. If we only understand the word generation to mean those living there at the time (as some insist we must), then none of the Apostles, nor anyone else in that day or that generation could escape the damnation of hell. The truth is a lot less complicated, and in total agreement will the whole of Scripture. Not one jot or tittle of it shall fail until all be fulfilled.

• "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
• Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
• And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Again, this word translated generation is [genea], same as it is in Matthew 24 often used to express family relationship or posterity. This definition is also clearly demonstrated in the Septuagint, where in passages like Genesis 43:7 declaring, "The man asked us straitly of our kindred," the word kindred is [genea]. Or in Numbers 10:30, "I will depart to my own kindred." Again, Kindred is the word [genea]. Likewise in Leviticus 20:18, "Both shall be cut off from their people." Here, the word people is [genea]. I quote the Septuagint only to demonstrate that clearly, the meaning of this word was clearly known of old, and used to denote a family relationship. Thus it cannot be scholastically alleged that it must mean the short term generation of a man’s life.

claninja said:

Incorrect, hades is not the same as the lake of fire, for hades is thrown into the lake of fire.

revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire

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Claninja is correct the Hades is not the lake of fire itself as Hades will be cast into it. This is the Second Death. However he, as well as all preterists, are wrong with the timing becasue they believe everything must have occured in 70AD. Read the context again!

Revelation 20:7-15 KJV
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, Claninja, if you believe that Satan has come out of the bottomless pit in 70AD to gather physical armies upon the physical city of Jersualem in 70AD before casting into the Lake of Fire ...then my question for you when did Satan cast into the bottomless pit for thousand years in your [ahem] preterism doctrine?

Revelation 20:1-3 KJV
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

TribulationSigns said:

Claninja is correct the Hades is not the lake of fire itself as Hades will be cast into it. This is the Second Death. However he, as well as all preterists, are wrong with the timing becasue they believe everything must have occured in 70AD. Read the context again!

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straw man argument. It is clear that you are not studied in preterism, otherwise you would know that not all preterism is full preterism. Partial preterists do not believe "everything" was consummated in 70ad.

TribulationSigns said:

So, Claninja, if you believe that Satan has come out of the bottomless pit in 70AD to gather physical armies upon the physical city of Jersualem in 70AD before casting into the Lake of Fire ...then my question for you when did Satan cast into the bottomless pit for thousand years in your [ahem] preterism doctrine?

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I don't believe satan came out of the bottomless pit in 70ad.

Grip Docility said:

A day is as a thousand years and thousand years is as a day.

2 Peter 3 has you your answer... I didn’t write it.

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If time means nothing to God (if I'm understanding your argument) then why did He instruct the Israelites to follow Sabbath rules? Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Isaiah 58:13-14; 56:1-8; Acts 17:2; Acts 18:4, 11; Luke 4:16; Mark 2:27-28; Matthew 12:10-12; Hebrews 4:1-11; Genesis 1:5, 13-14; Nehemiah 13:19.

mkgal1 said:

If time means nothing to God (if I'm understanding your argument) then why did He instruct the Israelites to follow Sabbath rules? Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Isaiah 58:13-14; 56:1-8; Acts 17:2; Acts 18:4, 11; Luke 4:16; Mark 2:27-28; Matthew 12:10-12; Hebrews 4:1-11; Genesis 1:5, 13-14; Nehemiah 13:19.

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What? God’s Return is in relation to God. Those verses pertain to man.

Great verses. Fallacious argument employed.