New Orthodox schism stalls eucumenical dialogue, Vatican official says

Too bad. That is what happens when politics gets into the church. Putin is pulling strings with the Russian Orthodox and many in the Ukraine do not like that.

Dave-W said:

Too bad. That is what happens when politics gets into the church. Putin is pulling strings with the Russian Orthodox and many in the Ukraine do not like that.

Click to expand...

More than pulling strings.

Sadly true. I guess it just matters less now when we have our own issues to resolve. I simply wish the Russians would leave Ukraine alone. They do deserve to be autocephalous, but naturally Russia doesn't like that because they think they should be in control of world Orthodoxy due to numbers alone.

Michie said:

*You are in the Catholic forum*

A significant rupture between Orthodox churches in Ukraine has brought the theological dialogue between Catholics and Orthodox to a standstill, according to a Vatican official involved in the talks.

Continued below.
New Orthodox schism stalls ecumenical dialogue, official says

Click to expand...

I wonder. Will this new schism last as long as the one started in 1054? If I were a betting man ....

MariaJLM said:

Sadly true. I guess it just matters less now when we have our own issues to resolve. I simply wish the Russians would leave Ukraine alone. They do deserve to be autocephalous, but naturally Russia doesn't like that because they think they should be in control of world Orthodoxy due to numbers alone.

Click to expand...

If only they could let God be in charge of Orthodoxy.

Nobody can deny that there is a heavy-handedness by Russia in Ukraine, in more than one way.

However, the way that Patriarch Bartholomew has sewed division in the church is the greatest travesty here. There were other ways that this could have been handled, but Bartholomew took it upon himself to prop up a schismatic sect in the territory of another church, which is unacceptable.

From the Catholic side of things, there is no reason that theological dialogue needs to be halted. Not a single Orthodox Church has recognized the Ukrainian body that Bartholomew has propped up. Not the Georgians, the Bulgarians, the Romanians, the Greeks, the Serbians, etc. Everyone is on the same page here. What this really indicates is that Pope Francis only has one buddy within Orthodoxy, and that's Bartholomew. Their relationship has been demonstrated as being close on many different occasions. With Bartholomew now isolated and lacking in sway, who else can Pope Francis talk to? The Bulgarian church certainly didn't role out the red carpet for him this past week.

It's good that Francis wants dialogue, but he needs to understand that if he truly wants to make amends with us, then he needs to sit down with Orthodox leaders and have a true theological discussion on all the points that separate us. The "brotherly love" approach he has been trying with Pat. Bartholomew is not going to work across Orthodoxy as a whole, and it never has. We need real theological dialogue, not a bunch of showy hugs and kisses.

It's true that really it's halting because Pope Francis has only really been talking to Patriarch Bartholomew.

Previous Popes tried a wider engagement even though it would not result in photo ops. It did result in dialogue even if not agreement. But there were positive small steps.

I'm okay with this

I don't know anything about the Catholic / Orthodox dialogue, but it is true that we need to get our own house in order.

In my opinion, this has been brewing ecclesiologically since at least the 18th century when Peter I pushed his reforms on the ROC. The resulting caesaropapism has been unhealthy ever since, save a period of persecution and then a short time of sort of being ignored by the state.

It has been bad for the ROC, especially since the 19th century, and bad for the OC overall.

I can see no end to this schism until the next Patriarch of Constantinople is enthroned, whenever that may be. God willing, he will reach out to Russia. Realistically, it is not going to happen though. On the Russian side, things probably aren't going to change any time soon. Putin and his policies are here to stay for the foreseeable future, and the Russian church will continue to be a , God forgive me, puppet of the Kremlin. This is what happens when politics and phyletism get in the way of teaching and worshipping Christ. I pray our hierarchs come together and mend this sin of a schism.

Fenwick said:

I'm okay with this

Click to expand...

With what? With the Orthodox giving up on talking with the Catholics? With the Orthodox splintering and hatin' on each other? Even though they would not want to say so, these are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Zummi said:

I can see no end to this schism until the next Patriarch of Constantinople is enthroned, whenever that may be. God willing, he will reach out to Russia. Realistically, it is not going to happen though. On the Russian side, things probably aren't going to change any time soon. Putin and his policies are here to stay for the foreseeable future, and the Russian church will continue to be a , God forgive me, puppet of the Kremlin. This is what happens when politics and phyletism get in the way of teaching and worshipping Christ. I pray our hierarchs come together and mend this sin of a schism.

Click to expand...

Agreed, in my opinion, the ROC is as captive as it was in the 20s and 30s, if not worse.

Edit: Obviously, mass murders of clergy were worse. But in terms of being controlled by the civil authority. I'm not going to say more, because we have ROC clergy on CF who might not like to feel they have to come to OBOB to discuss this. And I say this all as someone who venerates Russian saints from all periods, who is not "against" the ROC. But from where I'm standing, it is our sister jurisdiction and is in trouble (not that the rest of us have no problems).

And to be on-topic...Fr. Robert Taft, RC priest of the Byzantine Rite, said this "The Catholic church has become so big that we need some kind of a synodal structure in the West the same way you have in the East. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops ought to be a kind of synod of Catholic bishops in the United States. They ought to be able to elect the bishops. Leave Rome a veto, if you want. By the way, this would be no guarantee of better bishops. The notion that the locals will necessarily pick better people than Rome is obviously false, as anybody who knows the East understands. But at least people will see these guys as their bishops and not Rome’s. Make your own bed and sleep in it. The pope could say: ‘You don’t like the archbishop of New York? Hey, I didn’t name him.’"

Now, I'm not saying I know enough to say whether Fr Taft is right about this. But if he is right...we (Orthodox) need to get our acts together and make our synods work as well as they can.

archer75 said:

Agreed, in my opinion, the ROC is as captive as it was in the 20s and 30s, if not worse.

Click to expand...

Ouch.

chevyontheriver said:

With what? With the Orthodox giving up on talking with the Catholics? With the Orthodox splintering and hatin' on each other? Even though they would not want to say so, these are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Click to expand...

I want to say so, and plenty of Orthodox would agree with me.

That there are Christian squabbles is nothing new. Our (EO) squabbles are particularly visible at the moment. That doesn't mean we can't or don't need to do better. We can do better by the grace of God. And if anyone here feels like praying for us, I would appreciate it.

archer75 said:

I want to say so, and plenty of Orthodox would agree with me.

That there are Christian squabbles is nothing new. Our (EO) squabbles are particularly visible at the moment. That doesn't mean we can't or don't need to do better. We can do better by the grace of God. And if anyone here feels like praying for us, I would appreciate it.

Click to expand...

We all need help, Arch. We all need grace. We all need each other. Thank you. Charity, understanding, and grace from Orthodox Christians always feels awesome. Will pray for you guys.

archer75 said:

That there are Christian squabbles is nothing new. Our (EO) squabbles are particularly visible at the moment. That doesn't mean we can't or don't need to do better. We can do better by the grace of God. And if anyone here feels like praying for us, I would appreciate it.

Click to expand...

Praying. And praying for the Orthodox is nothing new for me. That because I have spent a long time reading the Greek Fathers

archer75 said:

I want to say so, and plenty of Orthodox would agree with me.

That there are Christian squabbles is nothing new. Our (EO) squabbles are particularly visible at the moment. That doesn't mean we can't or don't need to do better. We can do better by the grace of God. And if anyone here feels like praying for us, I would appreciate it.

Click to expand...

If I could offer one positive thought here, the Orthodox Church has stood as the light on the hill, not hiding in anonymity or fractiousness. That is what makes this particularly painful and unfortunately newsworthy. If this was a split amidst the fractious sects within Protestantism, it wouldn't even make the local news.

tz620q said:

If I could offer one positive thought here, the Orthodox Church has stood as the light on the hill, not hiding in anonymity or fractiousness. That is what makes this particularly painful and unfortunately newsworthy. If this was a split amidst the fractious sects within Protestantism, it wouldn't even make the local news.

Click to expand...

Thanks for saying so. I hope that is the case.

Re: this current news, I want to be clear that it's not a schism. The ROC is still in communion with the other local churches, and so are the Greeks. It's more a one-way rift -- the Greeks have not "struck back" -- and such things do happen from time to time. The same thing happened in the 90s for a brief time. But this is the first one in our new age of instant communication and instant outrage (of which I am guilty).

Fr Robert Taft (S.J.), who I mentioned earlier, and Sister Vassa Larina (nun in the Russian Church Abroad and host of an educational YouTube channel) were friends for years after he advised her dissertation. Both were (Sr Vassa is still living, so she "is") educators about Christian liturgy and tradition.

So regardless of official dialogue and official bad blood and official rifts and official reunification, I think they are a good model for how we RCs and EOs can travel together without being in communion.