What about the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory?

Is the concept of Purgatory perhaps more accurate than Heaven vs Hell?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 15.8%
  • No

    Votes: 14 73.7%
  • Perhaps..... and I kind of hope so?!

    Votes: 2 10.5%

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bbbbbbb

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Not unbiblical.
When Jesus said to pay back anyone who you are idebted to before you see the judge(you know who the judge is) because he will put you in prison till the last penny is paid, what is the prison Jesus is teaching about?

If it is debtors' prison, then there is a very serious theological problem. In the past, in many countries there were debtors' prisons where people who were seriously in debt were confined until they paid their debts. The problem, if course, is that being in prison deprived them of any honest means of earning money, not merely to pay their debts, but also to clothe and feed themselves. In addition, there were administrative costs associated with imprisonment. The net result was that, in due time, governments realized that debtors' prisons were quite counterproductive and a drain on the government budget.

England got very smart about it shortly after the discovery of Australia at the end of the eighteenth century. The English government emptied its debtors' prisons (but kept workhouses, which were not debtors' prisons at all) and transported its prisoners to Australia where they were expected to fend for themselves. Thus, Australia's origins were as a penal colony for the mother country. Many died on the way or after they arrived as they were not at all equipped to meet their own need in a very strange and hostile land.

The simple fact is, that whether one owes a billion dollars or a single penny and if one is place in a prison where it is impossible to created any form of money, one will be there until an exceedingly warm place freezes solidly over. Thus, this argument in favor of a temporary place of punishment is utter rubbish.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Like I said, my doctrine isn't built on speculation. In this case speculating that 'prison' means purgatory and building a case from that.
I gave some clear Scriptures earlier which contradict the concept of purgatory. How do you handle them?
Jesus taught in parables and you refuse to speculate?

1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
That the image and likeness of ourselves is conforming to the image and likeness of Christ. What that is isn't known. How will we be like Him?We will see Him as He is. The vision of God is transformative. That's just how purgatory works as well.

Colossians 3:4 (KJV) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
This say's nothing against purgatory. In the light of the Transfiguration the apostles could see Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. They appeared in glory. If Christ is your life you will appear in glory with Him.

2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
That's how Purgatory works.

Compare...

Matthew 5:25-26 (NASB) "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. "Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.
There is no comparison. The passages you posted don't refute the reality of Purgatory. If they compared your answer would be easy. . What is this prison Jesus is teaching us about?
 
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Eloy Craft

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The simple fact is, that whether one owes a billion dollars or a single penny and if one is place in a prison where it is impossible to created any form of money, one will be there until an exceedingly warm place freezes solidly over. Thus, this argument in favor of a temporary place of punishment is utter rubbish.
Very much like Purgatory. It's not like the modern term "punishment'. Everyone in purgatory is in friendship with God. Sins are forgiven. Impurity causes one pain in the light of God's love. At the same time it (God's love) offers a means to endure. Remember what Peter did right after the miracle of fishes? He said 'move away from me lord for I am a sinner. He was exposed to who Jesus really is and it transformed him. Painful but gainful. Purging can happen on this side of life too.
 
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Jesus taught in parables and you refuse to speculate?
Apples n oranges, telling parables is not speculating...guessing on their interpretation is.

That the image and likeness of ourselves is conforming to the image and likeness of Christ. What that is isn't known. How will we be like Him?We will see Him as He is. The vision of God is transformative. That's just how purgatory works as well.
The difference is, purgatory is over a long length of time whereas 1Jn 3:2 the transformation happens instantaneous at His Coming.

This say's nothing against purgatory. In the light of the Transfiguration the apostles could see Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. They appeared in glory. If Christ is your life you will appear in glory with Him.

So some of us will bypass purgatory at His Coming?

That's how purgatory works

2Cor 3:18 is describing the growth of a born again Christian...now..while here on this earth.
Since you appear to be an expert on purgatory, do you mind telling me how long it takes?

What is this prison Jesus is teaching about?
Must you turn every word of Jesus into an allegory? Prison is just that ..a prison. Jesus is simply teaching the importance of reconciling with and forgiving one another lest our bitterness ends us up in prison.
 
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Albion

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So some of us will bypass purgatory at His Coming?
That's part of the Roman Catholic teaching about Purgatory. What will happen to the people alive at the Second Coming, it is asked?

That is a question because the church has taught that the Final Judgment will occur right afterwards and Purgatory will end at that point, so what of those people who deserve a lot of time in Purgatory...but it is ended? The suffering at the time of the end of the age will be so great, the theory goes, that this will substitute for the usual suffering in Purgatory.
 
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redleghunter

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If it is debtors' prison, then there is a very serious theological problem.
Indeed as it means Christ only paid some debts and not all. Which would be rejection of apostolic teachings in the New Testament.
 
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redleghunter

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I'd like to review how Purgatory was used by the Western Church and judge for yourselves why this doctrine became "ancient tradition."

Pope Leo X (A.D. 1475-1521) commissioned John Tetzel, a Dominican monk, to travel throughout Germany selling indulgences on behalf of the Church. Tetzel declared that as soon as the coins “clinked” in his money chest, the souls of those for whom the indulgences had been purchased would fly out of purgatory.

These indulgences not only bestowed pardon for sins committed already, they were used to license the commission of future transgressions as well. In the classic volume, The Life and Times of Martin Luther, noted historian Merle D’Aubigne relates an amusing episode relative to this practice.

A certain Saxon nobleman heard John Tetzel proclaiming his doctrine of indulgences, and the gentleman was much aggravated at this perversion of truth. Accordingly, he approached the monk one day and inquired as to whether he might purchase an indulgence for a sin he intended to commit.

“Most assuredly,” replied Tetzel, “I have received full powers from his holiness for that purpose.” After some haggling, a fee of thirty crowns was agreed upon, and the nobleman departed.

Together with some friends, he hid himself in a nearby forest. Presently, as Tetzel journeyed that way, the knight and his mischievous companions fell upon the papal salesman, gave him a light beating, and relieved him of his money, apparently taking no pains to disguise themselves.

Tetzel was enraged by the foul deed and filed suit in the courts. When the nobleman appeared as the defendant, he produced the letter of exemption containing John Tetzel’s personal signature, which absolved the Saxon of any liability. When Duke George (the judge before whom the action was brought) examined the document, exasperated though he was, he ordered the accused to be released.
John Tetzel's Indulgences
 
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Eloy Craft

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E-Jesus taught in parables and you refuse to speculate?
C-Apples n oranges, telling parables is not speculating...guessing on their interpretation is.
E-Few understood Jesus' parables. His parables are an invitation to discover truth. If He didn't want anyone to speculate He would have not taught in parables.

E-That the image and likeness of ourselves is conforming to the image and likeness of Christ. What that is isn't known. How will we be like Him?We will see Him as He is. The vision of God is transformative. That's just how purgatory works as well.
C-The difference is, purgatory is over a long length of time whereas 1Jn 3:2 the transformation happens instantaneous at His Coming.
E-Nothing instantaneous happening in that passage. Anyhow, what's time to a soul that has entered eternity? At the resurrection the purge is complete. The state of the soul determines the state of the body. No magic elevator to the top no pain no gain.

E-This say's nothing against purgatory. In the light of the Transfiguration the apostles could see Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus. They appeared in glory. If Christ is your life you will appear in glory with Him.
C-So some of us will bypass purgatory at His Coming?

E-Purgative suffering can happen during our earthly life. Martyrs for example. At the time of His coming the Church will be enduring it's worst persecution and will be following Jesus all the way to the cross. That suffering will be purgative. It will also be our greatest witness to the world especially the Jewish people.


C-2Cor 3:18 is describing the growth of a born again Christian...now..while here on this earth.
Since you appear to be an expert on purgatory, do you mind telling me how long it takes?
E-It depends on the state of impurity and the reparation left undone. Imagine the suffering, or the mere lack of good a person's sins have caused down the generations. Can anyone be in heaven if there are people suffering on earth because of their sins? Look at Hitler. If his sins are forgiven how long would it be until no one on earth is suffering something in their life because of him? I think not until the end of history. That's an extreme but I think it's a rare few who's sins don't have a negative effect for many generations after they die.
Also, I believe as the soul is purified it is less time bound. Less attached to material things. As it approaches an unobstructed vision of God it also approaches the eternal moment with God. A moment without duration.



E-What is this prison Jesus is teaching about?


C-Must you turn every word of Jesus into an allegory? Prison is just that ..a prison. Jesus is simply teaching the importance of reconciling with and forgiving one another lest our bitterness ends us up in prison.

E-His parables always had deeper meaning below the surface. I think you know that.


Peace.
 
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redleghunter

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Although I am not Roman Catholic myself I do not laugh at the idea of Purgatory since I began to study near death experience accounts back around 1990.
Excuse my limited knowledge on the subject...But does not "near death" not mean actual death?

And is not God the Master over life and death (not a sparrow falls from the sky without Him knowing).

Here's my point. It is appointed unto man to die once, not twice or multiple times. That what people experience in the near death experiences is not death because if it was death then they would not be 'back' to tell us the story.
 
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Eloy Craft

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I'd like to review how Purgatory was used by the Western Church and judge for yourselves why this doctrine became "ancient tradition."

Pope Leo X (A.D. 1475-1521) commissioned John Tetzel, a Dominican monk, to travel throughout Germany selling indulgences on behalf of the Church. Tetzel declared that as soon as the coins “clinked” in his money chest, the souls of those for whom the indulgences had been purchased would fly out of purgatory.

These indulgences not only bestowed pardon for sins committed already, they were used to license the commission of future transgressions as well. In the classic volume, The Life and Times of Martin Luther, noted historian Merle D’Aubigne relates an amusing episode relative to this practice.

A certain Saxon nobleman heard John Tetzel proclaiming his doctrine of indulgences, and the gentleman was much aggravated at this perversion of truth. Accordingly, he approached the monk one day and inquired as to whether he might purchase an indulgence for a sin he intended to commit.

“Most assuredly,” replied Tetzel, “I have received full powers from his holiness for that purpose.” After some haggling, a fee of thirty crowns was agreed upon, and the nobleman departed.

Together with some friends, he hid himself in a nearby forest. Presently, as Tetzel journeyed that way, the knight and his mischievous companions fell upon the papal salesman, gave him a light beating, and relieved him of his money, apparently taking no pains to disguise themselves.

Tetzel was enraged by the foul deed and filed suit in the courts. When the nobleman appeared as the defendant, he produced the letter of exemption containing John Tetzel’s personal signature, which absolved the Saxon of any liability. When Duke George (the judge before whom the action was brought) examined the document, exasperated though he was, he ordered the accused to be released.
John Tetzel's Indulgences
redleghunter, that story promotes a false understanding of Purgatory. The scoundrels who wanted to use indulgences for personal gain taught a false doctrine to do it. Any money given were supposed to be alms. To the poor and needy or the Church.
Indulgences have nothing to do with unforgiven sin. Indulgences don't work if the person has known sin that hasn't been forgiven. Confession, alms, and prayer along with a particular devotion if necessary had to be completed faithfully.
 
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Albion

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I'd like to review how Purgatory was used by the Western Church and judge for yourselves why this doctrine became "ancient tradition."
Purgatory is absolutely not ancient. Or a tradition, for that matter. The main argument that is used in support of that claim is that a verse in the Apocrypha says that some Jews prayed that their fallen comrades would be released from their sins...and that there are a couple of references to some sort of fire to come.

As for the first of those, even if the Apocrypha were scripture, it simply says that some people had that prayer intention. People pray in a similar way now, too. We can pray to God for mercy without specifying -- or creating! -- any particular way that this might be accomplished, if it even were within God's intentions and will to do so. You can pray that the football team wins this weekend; it doesn't mean that God will make it happen.

This "evidence" comes no closer to proving a Purgatory's existence/reality than the existence of a lug nut proves the reality of a Chevrolet.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Although I am not Roman Catholic myself I do not laugh at the idea of Purgatory since I began to study near death experience accounts back around 1990.

I have to admit that I somewhat like the idea of Purgatory over a more simple Heaven vs Hell teaching?

I am listening to the following audio interview for the second time at this moment and I am thinking that this may well be one of the best ways to introduce this topic:

"This mortal must put on immortality". Purgatory is the process whereby that happens. Nothing more, nothing less. Your point about a lot of NDE's describing something akin to Purgatory is insightful, and is frequently overlooked in these types of discussions.

Full disclosure: I'm usually highly skeptical of most NDE accounts. I won't go so far as to accuse them of dishonesty but I do think there are other explanations for their stories apart from authentic NDE's.
 
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DennisTate

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"This mortal must put on immortality". Purgatory is the process whereby that happens. Nothing more, nothing less. Your point about a lot of NDE's describing something akin to Purgatory is insightful, and is frequently overlooked in these types of discussions.

Full disclosure: I'm usually highly skeptical of most NDE accounts. I won't go so far as to accuse them of dishonesty but I do think there are other explanations for their stories apart from authentic NDE's.

Right now..... it could be argued that I am one breath away from being dead.........
This human life is far, far, far more fragile than we tend to think of it as being due to our having been blessed with breath after breath after breath..... for nearly sixty years in my case............

I have heard of Open Visions..... or visionary dreams... that remind me of NDE accounts in some ways....... and whatever it was that Paul was talking about in 2 Corinthians 12
verses 2-4 will probably amaze us when we finally understand fully what he meant.... which may not happen until after we pass on ourselves.......
 
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redleghunter

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Full disclosure: I'm usually highly skeptical of most NDE accounts.
As I pointed out earlier it’s called “near death” for a reason. If they actually died they would not live to tell us what they saw.
 
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Albion

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Simply because God is either incapable or unwilling to forgive certain sins and requires the sinner to make payment in full in order that he might merit salvation.
Wait a minute. God is incapable of forgiving?? Or God is unwilling to forgive?? That cannot be compatible with the Christian religion which, at heart, is based upon the idea that God does forgive.

(???)
 
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bbbbbbb

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Wait a minute. God is incapable of forgiving?? Or God is unwilling to forgive?? That cannot be compatible with the Christian religion which, at heart, is based upon the idea that God does forgive.

(???)

Therein lies the difference between Catholic theology and (if I might dare say so) biblical theology. In Catholic theology only a God who is either unwilling or incapable would force His people to pay for some, or all, of their sins as the price of admission to heaven. In holy scripture it is quite evident that God is neither unwilling or incapable of forgiving His peoples sins.
 
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Eloy Craft

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Therein lies the difference between Catholic theology and (if I might dare say so) biblical theology. In Catholic theology only a God who is either unwilling or incapable would force His people to pay for some, or all, of their sins as the price of admission to heaven. In holy scripture it is quite evident that God is neither unwilling or incapable of forgiving His peoples sins.
If anyone has unforgiven sin they will be in hell not Purgatory.
Wait a minute. God is incapable of forgiving?? Or God is unwilling to forgive?? That cannot be compatible with the Christian religion which, at heart, is based upon the idea that God does forgive.

(???)
In Purgatory all sins have been forgiven.
 
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