What about the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory?

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

Although I am not Roman Catholic myself I do not laugh at the idea of Purgatory since I began to study near death experience accounts back around 1990.

I have to admit that I somewhat like the idea of Purgatory over a more simple Heaven vs Hell teaching?

I am listening to the following audio interview for the second time at this moment and I am thinking that this may well be one of the best ways to introduce this topic:

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

"Purgatory" is a word.......
and words need to be defined........
I've been wondering if the idea of purgatory could perhaps fit with non-linear time........
which could perhaps fit with Ezekiel chapter 37 happening again and again and again and again and again?????

G-d invented TIME.......
and time may be somewhat like a vehicle.... that transports souls from point A to point B.....

Since all the earth is like a drop in a bucket to our Creator......
could it be that G-d reinvents the earth as it was in certain points of time in the past and then spins off a new time line in which people are led to salvation who fell in other time lines?????

So time... .rather than being like a straight line as we tend to assume that it is may look more like a tree with branches..... and for that matter even roots???

Gregory Thompson · May 9, 2019

DennisTate said:
Although I am not Roman Catholic myself I do not laugh at the idea of Purgatory since I began to study near death experience accounts back around 1990.

I have to admit that I somewhat like the idea of Purgatory over a more simple Heaven vs Hell teaching?

I am listening to the following audio interview for the second time at this moment and I am thinking that this may well be one of the best ways to introduce this topic:

Purgatory (for saints only) is a carry over of the ancient hope of Ultimate Reconciliation. (Eventual purification of all in the lake of fire) Of course, you cannot control people with fear if God is going to save them all anyway.

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

Michael Collum said:
Purgatory (for saints only) is a carry over of the ancient hope of Ultimate Reconciliation. (Eventual purification of all in the lake of fire) Of course, you cannot control people with fear if God is going to save them all anyway.

I have read that the idea of Purgatory has its origin in some Jewish ideas on the afterlife.

A Brief Survey of Jewish Afterlife Beliefs

As implied in the Book of Daniel, the Jewish notion of resurrection in the Maccabeean period was tied to a notion of judgment, and even to separate realms for the judged. In rabbinical thought, the model for heaven was Eden. The rabbinic word for hell, "Gehenna", is taken from the name of a valley of fire where children were said to be sacrificed as burnt offerings to Baal and Moloch (Semitic deities). Gehenna is a place of intense punishment and cleansing. This place is also known as "She'ol" and other names. This line of Jewish thought argues that after death the soul has to be purified before it can go on the rest of its journey. The amount of time needed for purification depends on how the soul dealt with life. One Jewish tradition states that a soul needs a maximum of 11 months for purification, which is why, when a parent dies, the kaddish (memorial prayer) is recited for 11 months. The concept of Gehenna as a place for temporary purification was the source for the orthodox Christian doctrine of "purgatory."

Gregory Thompson · May 9, 2019

DennisTate said:
I have read that the idea of Purgatory has its origin in some Jewish ideas on the afterlife.

A Brief Survey of Jewish Afterlife Beliefs

This is entirely possible, since originally The Way was protected as a Jewish Sect. Later, it became it's own religion.

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

Michael Collum said:
This is entirely possible, since originally The Way was protected as a Jewish Sect. Later, it became it's own religion.

Former Skeptic Rabbi Alon Anava had a near death experience that reminds me a lot of Matthew chapter 4 and 5. I have wondered if Lazarus had one of these powerful near death experience accounts that he was telling to people and could that be why some religious officials wanted to kill Lazarus as well....... was his testimony drawing crowds that were just too large?????

https://www.christianforums.com/bible/matthew/5/
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
.......

9 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

HTacianas · May 9, 2019

DennisTate said:
Although I am not Roman Catholic myself I do not laugh at the idea of Purgatory since I began to study near death experience accounts back around 1990.

I have to admit that I somewhat like the idea of Purgatory over a more simple Heaven vs Hell teaching?

I am listening to the following audio interview for the second time at this moment and I am thinking that this may well be one of the best ways to introduce this topic:

Purgatory, as a concept, is not only a "Roman Catholic" belief. The term "purgatory" is, and the Roman Church has its own beliefs as to the nature of purgatory.

The "intermediate state" after death but before entering heaven is a universal belief within Christianity. All of the original apostolic Churches hold to that belief.

And I agree with you that it is a good thing.

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

HTacianas said:
Purgatory, as a concept, is not only a "Roman Catholic" belief. The term "purgatory" is, and the Roman Church has its own beliefs as to the nature of purgatory.

The "intermediate state" after death but before entering heaven is a universal belief within Christianity. All of the original apostolic Churches hold to that belief.

And I agree with you that it is a good thing.

Yes.... I've gotten the impression that the idea of "Purgatory" may correspond with the Life Review that near death experiencers are reporting no matter whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever background they had so far in their lives.........

The Life Review is profoundly HUMBLING.......
and humility is stated to be a necessary characteristic before anybody can go into heaven?!

Isaiah 57:15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Isaiah 2:17 "And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

The Life Review and the Near-Death Experience

Douay-Rheims Bible, Baruch Chapter 6
[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls.

HTacianas · May 9, 2019

DennisTate said:
Yes.... I've gotten the impression that the idea of "Purgatory" may correspond with the Life Review that near death experiencers are reporting no matter whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever background they had so far in their lives.........

The Life Review is profoundly HUMBLING.......
and humility is stated to be a necessary characteristic before anybody can go into heaven?!

Isaiah 57:15 "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

Isaiah 2:17 "And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth."

The Life Review and the Near-Death Experience

Douay-Rheims Bible, Baruch Chapter 6
[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls.

1Co 3:13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2 Maccabees 12:45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

HTacianas said:
1Co 3:13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

2 Maccabees 12:45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin.

Truly well said.............. we cannot begin to imagine the reward for really and truly serving Messiah Yeshua - Jesus with humility and sincerity.

Near death experiencer Bob Jones had felt that his life and service was something of a waste.... but during his NDE he was told that he really had done a great job and had actually passed on messages that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus had wanted him to teach to others.

Bob Jones .. .even before his NDE had been very involved in fighting against abortions....
The near death experience of Pastor Bob Jones!

Lost4words · May 9, 2019

I believe in purgatory 100%

DennisTate · May 9, 2019

Lost4words said:
I believe in purgatory 100%

I don't blame you at all..........
It would be interesting how former Skeptic and near death experiencer Howard Storm would respond to this question?

Joy · May 10, 2019

MOD HAT ON

This Thread has Moved
From Debate Other Religions & Faiths
To Denomination Specific Theology

MOD HAT OFF

crossnote · May 11, 2019

I have a hard time believing in purgatory as it...

1. Smacks similarities to a soft form of reincarnation (hence salvation by works).

2. Such Scriptures as ...
1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Colossians 3:4 (KJV) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

3. It is not safe to derive our beliefs from the experiences of others (e.g. Near Death Experiences over Scripture).

4. Flies in the face of Christ's atonement...Galatians 2:21 (NASB) "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

DennisTate · May 13, 2019

crossnote said:
I have a hard time believing in purgatory as it...

1. Smacks similarities to a soft form of reincarnation (hence salvation by works).

2. Such Scriptures as ...
1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Colossians 3:4 (KJV) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

3. It is not safe to derive our beliefs from the experiences of others (e.g. Near Death Experiences over Scripture).

4. Flies in the face of Christ's atonement...Galatians 2:21 (NASB) "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

The idea of time not being limited to being one straight line.........
and of Ezekiel chapter 37 not being limited to a one time event.... may help????

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

But better yet..... read
2 Corinthians 12
especially verses 2 - 4
and then read chapter eleven of Romans......

Romans 11

and ask yourself if Paul...... when at Rome.... may finally have been willing to go into some of what he may have felt was unlawful to explain..... back when he wrote II Corinthians 12?????/

zippy2006 · May 13, 2019

DennisTate said:
I have to admit that I somewhat like the idea of Purgatory over a more simple Heaven vs Hell teaching?

Catholics believe in Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell. Purgatory is an intermediate state of purification that precedes Heaven.

crossnote · May 13, 2019

DennisTate said:
The idea of time not being limited to being one straight line.........
and of Ezekiel chapter 37 not being limited to a one time event.... may help????

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

But better yet..... read
2 Corinthians 12
especially verses 2 - 4
and then read chapter eleven of Romans......

Romans 11

and ask yourself if Paul...... when at Rome.... may finally have been willing to go into some of what he may have felt was unlawful to explain..... back when he wrote II Corinthians 12?????/

I steer away from theories and speculations and try to stick with Scripture lest I believe something unbiblical like purgatory...'purgatory', that was the topic, right?

Albion · May 13, 2019

DennisTate said:
Yes.... I've gotten the impression that the idea of "Purgatory" may correspond with the Life Review that near death experiencers are reporting no matter whether they are Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist or whatever background they had so far in their lives.........

Help us out here. Just what do you think Purgatory is? Who is it for, and why?

Eloy Craft · May 13, 2019

crossnote said:
I steer away from theories and speculations and try to stick with Scripture lest I believe something unbiblical like purgatory...'purgatory', that was the topic, right?

Not unbiblical.
When Jesus said to pay back anyone who you are idebted to before you see the judge(you know who the judge is) because he will put you in prison till the last penny is paid, what is the prison Jesus is teaching about?

crossnote · May 13, 2019

Eloy Craft said:
Not unbiblical.
When Jesus said to pay back anyone who you are idebted to before you see the judge(you know who the judge is) because he will put you in prison till the last penny is paid, what is the prison Jesus is teaching about?

Like I said, my doctrine isn't built on speculation. In this case speculating that 'prison' means purgatory and building a case from that.
I gave some clear Scriptures earlier which contradict the concept of purgatory. How do you handle them?

1 John 3:2 (NASB) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
Colossians 3:4 (KJV) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
2 Corinthians 3:18 (KJV) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Compare...

Matthew 5:25-26 (NASB) "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. "Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

What about the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory?

Is the concept of Purgatory perhaps more accurate than Heaven vs Hell?

Yes

No

Perhaps..... and I kind of hope so?!

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