At least seven injured in school shooting in suburban Denver, 2 suspects in custody

Zoii

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The one big unifying factor in most of these mass shootings isn't guns; it's mental illness. One can readily find ample evidence that mass shooter after mass shooter was mentally ill and even gave off warning signs well in advance, but for one reason or another people failed to act.

Doesn't matter how many guns get confiscated, video games smashed, et cetra if all society does is go after scapegoats instead of getting to the core of everything.
Nonsense.
Zero evidence to support your claim that its people with mental health issues. The overwhelming number of cases in your country are people without any previously diagnosed mental illness. They are just your average american who feels disaffected and goes on a shooting spree and you happily enable them through your gun laws.
 
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Sketcher

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Nonsense.
Zero evidence to support your claim that its people with mental health issues. The overwhelming number of cases in your country are people without any previously diagnosed mental illness. They are just your average american who feels disaffected and goes on a shooting spree and you happily enable them through your gun laws.
These people are not "average." Average people don't try to massacre people.
 
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Zoii

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These people are not "average." Average people don't try to massacre people.
You seemed to have utterly missed the point. Overwhelmingly the people are almost exclusively male without any history of a diagnosed mental illness.

Now you state they are NOT average - yet the gun laws there enable such people to carry out their acts of disaffection.
 
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Ironhold

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You seemed to have utterly missed the point. Overwhelmingly the people are almost exclusively male without any history of a diagnosed mental illness.

Now you state they are NOT average - yet the gun laws there enable such people to carry out their acts of disaffection.

"Diagnosed" is the key issue.

For example, consider the Virginia Tech shooter. His parents knew something was wrong with him from the time he was a child, yet feared the stigma that would come with having him undergo psychiatric treatment.

Fort Hood #1? The guy's co-workers at a previous posting said that they feared a backlash if they tried to report him to their superiors, which is why they never did. (Nutshell: the Clinton Administration force-fed political correctness to the US military, and at the posting in question it was so strongly felt that the co-workers feared they'd be branded "racists" and have their careers destroyed for expressing fears that a Muslim co-worker was going off the deep end.)

Bell Tower Sniper? His own journal made it clear that he understood something was wrong with him, but he chose to grab a rifle instead of grabbing the telephone and calling for help.

Parkland? There were well over a dozen calls to local authorities from folks concerned that the kid was unhinged and potentially a danger to those around him; for reasons unknown, nobody ever followed up on most of them.

The list keeps growing.
 
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Zoii

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"Diagnosed" is the key issue.
No - It is NOT the key issue. You, the president and the NRA want to pin the mass murders on those with a mental health issue despite the fact there is ZERO evidence to support it. What mental health disorder are you saying they have - schizophrenia? Bipolar? - what nonsense - Its offensive actually that these people who struggle with mental illness are labelled with your accusations.

The fact is these events are very carefully planned. They collate their weaponry and organise their attack. That is NOT the characteristic of someone with a severe mental health issue.

These people sure are whackos I'll give you that. They have borderline behaviours and anti-social traits - After the fact you may hear...yea I knew the guy - he was a loner/weird etc....all that's NOT a mental health disorder. If it was 50% of your country would be locked up. But your domestic killings, your guy who shoots a crowd from Las Vegas, the angry young guy in a school... these are ordinary people gone wrong.

The real problem is - you have a lot of unsociable people in your country - and your country gladly supports weaponizing them.

Its annoying when its just not owned - why not just say how it is - we wont ever give up weapons and that's that so yea....we will get a massive kill count each year and we accept it. Instead of the rather gutless approach of blaming the mentally ill, refugees or some other scapegoat.
 
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Ironhold

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Its offensive actually that these people who struggle with mental illness are labelled with your accusations.

IRL I have a pretty nice slew of mental health issues going, including severe anxiety issues after having been witness to a fatal traffic accident.

I've also been researching out mass shooting incidents since Columbine went down, the result of my having been in high school at the time and it directly affecting my day - to - day existence.

Did you think to ask about any of that before judging me?

The fact is these events are very carefully planned. They collate their weaponry and organise their attack. That is NOT the characteristic of someone with a severe mental health issue.

No, not all of these incidents are like this.

Cleveland Elementary School shooting (San Diego) - Wikipedia

For example, Brenda Spencer literally just grabbed a rifle and pointed it at the elementary school that was across the street.

As it is, talk with someone who is in the criminal justice field, and they'll tell you that "mentally ill" and "planned everything out" are not mutually - exclusive. You can have people who are heinously insane but still have enough grey matter going to plan out their crimes; if anything, their being insane makes them all the more dangerous when it comes to planning things out.

all that's NOT a mental health disorder.

The Sandy Hook shooter was so screwed up that he was legally barred from owning firearms. The second Ft. Hood shooter likewise, although his background check didn't come back in time.

Seriously. Research this all out.

The real problem is - you have a lot of unsociable people in your country - and your country gladly supports weaponizing them.

It was Charlton Heston himself, during his time as head of the NRA, who pushed for a bill to restrict firearm ownership by people regarded as mentally incompetent or unfit. When he was officially diagnosed with Alzheimer's, one of his first acts was to get with his sons and arrange for them to take possession of his weapons.
 
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Sketcher

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You seemed to have utterly missed the point. Overwhelmingly the people are almost exclusively male without any history of a diagnosed mental illness.

Now you state they are NOT average - yet the gun laws there enable such people to carry out their acts of disaffection.
They also enable people to protect themselves against criminals, government and otherwise. Gun laws are not the problem. Immoral people are the problem.
 
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Zoii

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They also enable people to protect themselves against criminals, government and otherwise. Gun laws are not the problem. Immoral people are the problem.
I understand your argument - but as you indicate, you have immoral people in your country that you are weaponizing.

I get that your country chooses to remain weaponizing all those seeking to own and use a gun - what I dont get is. given your knowledge of the consequences of giving a gun to anyone who wants one, why the dismay, constant threads here on CF, and the plethora of media/disdain and general hand-wringing each time the event occurs - and it occurs in your country at an insanely high level.

Worse is - why the scapegoating that occurs - Oh its the guy with schizophrenia, the refugee, the youth, the black-guy, the moslem, the [insert scapegoat]. The issue is - the mass events are your average guy who is probably on the outer of society, or disaffected , or for whatever reason - has just had enough.

I really do think there is a way forward for the USA, just benchmark with other nations that have dealt with the issue effectively. But firstly you have to admit that there's a problem and have the fortitude to actually do something about it.
 
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Darkhorse

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I get that your country chooses to remain weaponizing all those seeking to own and use a gun - what I dont get is. given your knowledge of the consequences of giving a gun to anyone who wants one, why the dismay, constant threads here on CF, and the plethora of media/disdain and general hand-wringing each time the event occurs - and it occurs in your country at an insanely high level.

We do not "give a gun to anyone who wants one". When you have a few days for research, look into the U.S. gun laws. You will be surprised.

If you came over here, you would not be allowed to buy a gun unless and until you gained status as a "resident alien", being allowed to live in the USA for an unlimited time.
A visitor's visa won't do it.

There are many other restrictions; check them out.
 
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Zoii

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We do not "give a gun to anyone who wants one". When you have a few days for research, look into the U.S. gun laws. You will be surprised.

If you came over here, you would not be allowed to buy a gun unless and until you gained status as a "resident alien", being allowed to live in the USA for an unlimited time.
A visitor's visa won't do it.

There are many other restrictions; check them out.
Ok thanks I will - but I understand your constitution enables access to weapons including semi-automatics eg AR15. Is this a good thing - it would seem that most in your country think it is. Well so be it - hey its your country - but there are consequences you are experiencing that worsen each year - and that was the point of my post - it need not be that way.
 
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Sketcher

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I understand your argument - but as you indicate, you have immoral people in your country that you are weaponizing.

I get that your country chooses to remain weaponizing all those seeking to own and use a gun - what I dont get is. given your knowledge of the consequences of giving a gun to anyone who wants one, why the dismay, constant threads here on CF, and the plethora of media/disdain and general hand-wringing each time the event occurs - and it occurs in your country at an insanely high level.
The STEM shooters stole the weapons they used from locked gun cabinet. That's not weaponizing them.

Just under 40,000 people died from firearms in 2017.
Just over 70,000 people died from drug overdoses in 2017.

The deaths that happen in shootings are tragic. So are the deaths that happen as a result of drug overdoses, which are far more numerous than the number of deaths that happen in shootings. The government can't get rid of narcotics in the hands of criminals, why should I trust it to get guns out of the hands of criminals?
 
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Darkhorse

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Ok thanks I will - but I understand your constitution enables access to weapons including semi-automatics eg AR15. Is this a good thing - it would seem that most in your country think it is. Well so be it - hey its your country - but there are consequences you are experiencing that worsen each year - and that was the point of my post - it need not be that way.

Funny thing is: those horrible AR-15s have been available to the public since 1968.

Why have they only been used in mass shootings for the last few years, not the last 51 years?

The problem lies in our society and its people, not in its guns.
 
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Zoii

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The STEM shooters stole the weapons they used from locked gun cabinet. That's not weaponizing them.

Just under 40,000 people died from firearms in 2017.
Just over 70,000 people died from drug overdoses in 2017.

The deaths that happen in shootings are tragic. So are the deaths that happen as a result of drug overdoses, which are far more numerous than the number of deaths that happen in shootings. The government can't get rid of narcotics in the hands of criminals, why should I trust it to get guns out of the hands of criminals?
Just under 40 000 died from gun related incidents - what da !!! and you say it like - meh thats not so bad - Wow thats unbelievable - Its like Brasil.

OK - Look thinking gun control - Its the basic tenet of risk management.

You mentioned drugs - so of course you have drug laws and drug surveillance and law enforcement - Risk Management 101

Cars are lethal - so you make people wear seat belts and have driving laws - Risk Management 101.

To suggest that because the risk will still remain to some extent - therefore dont do anything when it comes to gun deaths, is totally counter to what the entire western world considers as sound risk management - yet thats not deployed when it comes to guns.
 
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Sketcher

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Its the basic tenet of risk management.

You mentioned drugs - so of course you have drug laws and drug surveillance and law enforcement.

Cars are lethal - so you make people wear seat belts and have driving laws.

To suggest that because the risk will still remain to some extent - therefore dont do anything when it comes to gun deaths, is totally counter to what the entire western world considers as sound risk management.
My point is that law enforcement will fail to keep guns out of criminal hands with any gun confiscation laws that would be passed, since that same law enforcement has failed to keep drugs out of criminal hands. Therefore, criminals will still have guns, while the law-abiding citizens no longer would. Therefore, it leaving the law-abiding citizens without guns to protect themselves against criminals with guns. This is immoral. People must be able to protect themselves with guns.

Here's an example of self-defense with a gun gone right:
Burglars flee amid wild shootout with homeowner
Evil was stopped that day.
 
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Zoii

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My point is that law enforcement will fail to keep guns out of criminal hands with any gun confiscation laws that would be passed, since that same law enforcement has failed to keep drugs out of criminal hands. Therefore, criminals will still have guns, while the law-abiding citizens no longer would. Therefore, it leaving the law-abiding citizens without guns to protect themselves against criminals with guns. This is immoral. People must be able to protect themselves with guns.

Here's an example of self-defense with a gun gone right:
Burglars flee amid wild shootout with homeowner
Evil was stopped that day.
Then you have a challenge - how to make provisions for responsible gun ownership while putting in place risk mitigation strategies. So far, the limited risk controls the US has, have not curbed the annual rates of gun deaths. I would suggest international bench-marking of those nations that do it quite successfully.

But not admitting to the problem means its being ignored - and there's good reasons as to why its being ignored, starting with the NRA and weapons manufacturers
 
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Ironhold

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Then you have a challenge - how to make provisions for responsible gun ownership while putting in place risk mitigation strategies. So far, the limited risk controls the US has, have not curbed the annual rates of gun deaths. I would suggest international bench-marking of those nations that do it quite successfully.

But not admitting to the problem means its being ignored - and there's good reasons as to why its being ignored, starting with the NRA and weapons manufacturers

The risk controls aren't "limited".

For example, here in Texas if you want to concealed-carry you have to attend a mandatory certification and safety course before you can even consider applying for the permit necessary to carry.

Additionally, under Texas state law, if a public business or venue doesn't want you to carry in their establishment, all they have to do is post - in English and Spanish - the relevant legal code by all public entrances. This officially, legally, establishes the facility as a gun-free zone, and anyone other than law enforcement who tries to carry past those doors is in massive legal trouble if caught.
 
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Sketcher

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Then you have a challenge - how to make provisions for responsible gun ownership while putting in place risk mitigation strategies. So far, the limited risk controls the US has, have not curbed the annual rates of gun deaths. I would suggest international bench-marking of those nations that do it quite successfully.

But not admitting to the problem means its being ignored - and there's good reasons as to why its being ignored, starting with the NRA and weapons manufacturers
The NRA promotes responsible gun ownership and advocates for limited respect of the Second Amendment, which is the law of the land. They have compromised on a number of issues, in fact. They're not the bad people here.

When good people have guns and are trained to use them, crime is cut short. The larger problem is that people who commit violent crimes do not fear the consequences of committing those crimes. Within the limitations of the 8th Amendment of course, that needs to change.
 
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Just under 40 000 died from gun related incidents - what da !!! and you say it like - meh thats not so bad - Wow thats unbelievable - Its like Brasil.
Only if you ignore the data. Brazil has a homicide rate of 30 per 100,000, the US homicide rate is 4.9 per 100,000. High for a first world country but nothing like a South American one.
 
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Zoii

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Only if you ignore the data. Brazil has a homicide rate of 30 per 100,000, the US homicide rate is 4.9 per 100,000. High for a first world country but nothing like a South American one.
:) fair point - I was being metaphorical - the illustration being that the current gun laws have, to date, been incapable of stemming the extraordinary gun death rate. Surely that alone is serious enough for all sides of the debate to reconsider their position.... Unfortunately for the USA I fear that isn't the case and more children will die in schools, or while attending an outdoor concert in Las Vegas.
 
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You seemed to have utterly missed the point. Overwhelmingly the people are almost exclusively male without any history of a diagnosed mental illness.

Now you state they are NOT average - yet the gun laws there enable such people to carry out their acts of disaffection.
That's false. They are nearly always on anti-depressants or other psychiatric drugs, which have a disproportionately bad effect on young males. We need to stop drugging our young people. No one was shooting anyone in former eras, and the guns were always present. Pioneer kids weren't shooting up the one room schoolhouse.
 
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