Could Both Arminianism and Calvinism be Wrong?

JIMINZ said:

Clarification question.

Who then are the (Elect, Election) as spoken of in Scripture, and why are they so called?

1 Pet. 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rom. 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

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The elect are those chosen by God to be His people from every nation and people. The most explicit text in the Bible on election is in Romans 9. Paul goes way out of his way to make sure the reader understands that God's choice is not based on the person's will or actions in Romans 9:16. In Romans 9:15 Paul quotes Exodus 33:19 where God states that He will show mercy to whoever he wants to. God's statement in Exodus 33:19 has no conditions or qualifications. So Paul incorporates this unconditionallity into his arguments in Romans 9. That's why God's election of individuals is unconditional. Because that's what Romans 9 says. Paul is quick to pick up how unfair that seems to a finite being. He anticipates the arguments of unfairness in verses 14 and especially 19. If he had not been referring to individual election to heaven and hell, then there would be no need for Paul to defend God's righteousness (verse 14) or justice (verse 19)...

StevenBelievin said:

The elect are those chosen by God to be His people from every nation and people. The most explicit text in the Bible on election is in Romans 9.

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Words and their correct Definitions are very important, they are the only thing through which the Holy Spirit is able to give us an understanding of what has been written.

If we take a word and Mis-Define it, we inevitably come to a wrong Conclusion and Interpretation of what Scripture is telling us.

We cannot and must not assume we know what Scripture is actually saying if we do not take the time to investigate what has actually been said.

Example:
You have assumed, Paul includes the Gentiles when he is talking about Election in Romans 9.

Rom 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Mat. 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Remember, words and their correct Definitions are critical to our understanding of Scripture.

ELECT:
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
ek-leg'-om-ahee
To select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen.

ELECTION:
G1589
ἐκλογή
eklogē
ek-log-ay'
From G1586; (divine) selection (abstractly or concretely): - chosen, election.

What we are seeing in these two Definitions is, someone who is one of the Elect, or of the Election (The Jews) by Prophesy take note, the Gentiles not included in the Prophesy.

Therefore what is seen, is, The Elect, Election are also Chosen, they would have to be in order for the Prophesy to be fulfilled.

Now lets look at Rom. 9:24

Rom 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Remember again, correct Definitions are critical.

CALLED:
G2564
καλέω
kaleō
kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

G2753
κελεύω
keleuō
kel-yoo'-o
From a primary word κέλλω kellō (to urge on); “hail”; to incite by word, that is, order: - bid, (at, give) command (-ment).

Now look again at Mat. 20:16 where Jesus is speaking specifically about the Jews.

Mat. 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

CALLED:
G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
Invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

Remember, were only talking about the people of that time in order to be able to identify through Scripture who is being spoken of and who the Holy Spirit is gathering.

The Gentiles were Called or Invited, but they were not ever Appointed to Salvation as the Elect, Election as the Jews were.

Therefore I believe it could be said the Gentiles were not of the Elect, but both Jews and Gentiles were Called.

Now here it is.

CHOSEN:
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
Select; by implication favorite: - chosen, ELECT

1) The Jews are the Elect, Election according to the Prophesy. (Isa 10:22) (Rom. 11:5)
2) The Jews being the Elect, Election were not only Called but Chosen.
3) The Gentiles were Called but are not considered to be or identified as the Elect, Election.
4) Remember, words have correct Definitions, the usage of the words Elect, Election, Called, Chosen all possess a correct corresponding Definition which identifies who is being spoken of when these words are used.

Now, fast forward 2,000 yrs. we of today can no more call or consider ourselves to be Elect, any more than the Gentiles of that time.

This belief comes from a misinterpretation of Scripture in order to bolster the outrageous claims of Calvin and Predestination.

Mountainmanbob said:

Straight from the Bible.
That's the way I like it.
M-Bob

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Straight from the Bible is a good thing, but what I hear you saying is.
"As long as it adheres to the Framework and Doctrines of Calvinism"

Are there Doctrines of Catholicism, Arminianism which you follow?

JIMINZ said:

Words and their correct Definitions are very important, they are the only thing through which the Holy Spirit is able to give us an understanding of what has been written.

If we take a word and Mis-Define it, we inevitably come to a wrong Conclusion and Interpretation of what Scripture is telling us.

We cannot and must not assume we know what Scripture is actually saying if we do not take the time to investigate what has actually been said.

Example:
You have assumed, Paul includes the Gentiles when he is talking about Election in Romans 9.

Rom 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Mat. 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Remember, words and their correct Definitions are critical to our understanding of Scripture.

ELECT:
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

G1586
ἐκλέγομαι
eklegomai
ek-leg'-om-ahee
To select: - make choice, choose (out), chosen.

ELECTION:
G1589
ἐκλογή
eklogē
ek-log-ay'
From G1586; (divine) selection (abstractly or concretely): - chosen, election.

What we are seeing in these two Definitions is, someone who is one of the Elect, or of the Election (The Jews) by Prophesy take note, the Gentiles not included in the Prophesy.

Therefore what is seen, is, The Elect, Election are also Chosen, they would have to be in order for the Prophesy to be fulfilled.

Now lets look at Rom. 9:24

Rom 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Remember again, correct Definitions are critical.

CALLED:
G2564
καλέω
kaleō
kal-eh'-o
Akin to the base of G2753; to “call” (properly aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise): - bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-) name (was [called]).

G2753
κελεύω
keleuō
kel-yoo'-o
From a primary word κέλλω kellō (to urge on); “hail”; to incite by word, that is, order: - bid, (at, give) command (-ment).

Now look again at Mat. 20:16 where Jesus is speaking specifically about the Jews.

Mat. 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

CALLED:
G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
Invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

Remember, were only talking about the people of that time in order to be able to identify through Scripture who is being spoken of and who the Holy Spirit is gathering.

The Gentiles were Called or Invited, but they were not ever Appointed to Salvation as the Elect, Election as the Jews were.

Therefore I believe it could be said the Gentiles were not of the Elect, but both Jews and Gentiles were Called.

Now here it is.

CHOSEN:
G1588
ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
Select; by implication favorite: - chosen, ELECT

1) The Jews are the Elect, Election according to the Prophesy. (Isa 10:22) (Rom. 11:5)
2) The Jews being the Elect, Election were not only Called but Chosen.
3) The Gentiles were Called but are not considered to be or identified as the Elect, Election.
4) Remember, words have correct Definitions, the usage of the words Elect, Election, Called, Chosen all possess a correct corresponding Definition which identifies who is being spoken of when these words are used.

Now, fast forward 2,000 yrs. we of today can no more call or consider ourselves to be Elect, any more than the Gentiles of that time.

This belief comes from a misinterpretation of Scripture in order to bolster the outrageous claims of Calvin and Predestination.

Click to expand...

Have you seen 1st Corinthians 1:24 where κλητός (klētos) is used also referring to both Jews and Gentiles?

23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (ESV)

3105 κλητός (klētos), ή (ē), όν (on): adj.; ≡ DBLHebr 5246, 7924; Str 2822; TDNT 3.494—1. LN 33.314 called, implying relationship and/or task (Ro 1:1, 6, 7; 8:28; 1Co 1:1, 2, 24; Jude 1; Rev 17:14+; Mt 20:16 v.r.); 2. LN 33.318 invited (Mt 22:14+)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Hmmm, it seems that κλητός (klētos) doesn't just mean Jews after all..

Also if you look at what it actually says in Romans 9:24, Paul uses the word "us" including himself (a Jew) regarding that calling..

2813 καλέω (kaleō): vb.; ≡ DBLHebr 7924; Str 2564; TDNT 3.487—1. LN 33.129 name, to refer to the proper name of something (Lk 2:4); 2. LN 33.131 call, give attribution (Mt 1:23; Jas 2:23); 3. LN 33.307 summon, tell a person to come and gather (Mt 25:14); 4. LN 33.312 call to a task (2Th 2:14); 5. LN 33.315 invite, offer an invitation to someone (Lk 14:8; Col 1:12 v.r.)

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

So if we just read the texts and take them for what they say, then we can plainly see that the Gentiles are included in this principal of election..

Also if you look at Paul's examples in Romans 9 you will see Jacob a Jew (verse 13) and Pharaoh a Gentile (verse 17). In Paul's mind election includes Jews and Gentiles. Also notice that the examples are individuals. Meaning Paul does not have corporate election in mind here.

JIMINZ said:

Straight from the Bible is a good thing, but what I hear you saying is.
"As long as it adheres to the Framework and Doctrines of Calvinism"

Are there Doctrines of Catholicism, Arminianism which you follow?

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If you want to learn some true church history watch a couple of the videos I posted.

Once again your statement regarding Calvin is false.

M-Bob

StevenBelievin said:

Hmmm, it seems that κλητός (klētos) doesn't just mean Jews after all..

Click to expand...

It seems as though you missed the part where I explicitly said.

CALLED:
G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
Invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

Remember, were only talking about the people of that time in order to be able to identify through Scripture who is being spoken of and who the Holy Spirit is gathering.

The Gentiles were Called or Invited, but they were not ever Appointed to Salvation as the Elect, Election as the Jews were.

Therefore I believe it could be said the Gentiles were not of the Elect, but both Jews and Gentiles were Called.

StevenBelievin said:

Also if you look at what it actually says in Romans 9:24, Paul uses the word "us" including himself (a Jew) regarding that calling..

Click to expand...

Your correct Paul does include himself, EVERYONE is called, but not everyone was of the Election.

StevenBelievin said:

So if we just read the texts and take them for what they say, then we can plainly see that the Gentiles are included in this principal of election..

Click to expand...

So, if we just read the texts and take them for what they say, then we can plainly see, the Gentiles are NOT included in this principal of election, and that you are only assuming they are, while interjecting that belief into the text and therefore changing what it actually does plainly say.

JIMINZ said:

It seems as though you missed the part where I explicitly said.

CALLED:
G2822
κλητός
klētos
klay-tos'
Invited, that is, appointed, or (specifically) a saint: - called.

Remember, were only talking about the people of that time in order to be able to identify through Scripture who is being spoken of and who the Holy Spirit is gathering.

The Gentiles were Called or Invited, but they were not ever Appointed to Salvation as the Elect, Election as the Jews were.

Therefore I believe it could be said the Gentiles were not of the Elect, but both Jews and Gentiles were Called.




Your correct Paul does include himself, EVERYONE is called, but not everyone was of the Election.





So, if we just read the texts and take them for what they say, then we can plainly see, the Gentiles are NOT included in this principal of election, and that you are only assuming they are, while interjecting that belief into the text and therefore changing what it actually does plainly say.

Click to expand...

So You're saying John Calvin, John Bunyan, John Knox, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Matthew Henry, A.W. Pink, Louis Berkhof, J.I. Packer, R.C. Sproul, John Macarthur, Wayne Grudem, John Piper and a whole slew of other reformed theologians and pastors are all wrong and you're right? Sorry, I'm going to have to agree with them on this one, and I believe that they would agree with me that a plain reading of the text clearly shows that reformed theology is correct and that those who disagree are the ones who are injecting their presuppositions into the text.

JIMINZ said:

Your correct Paul does include himself, EVERYONE is called, but not everyone was of the Election.







So, if we just read the texts and take them for what they say, then we can plainly see, the Gentiles are NOT included in this principal of election, and that you are only assuming they are, while interjecting that belief into the text and therefore changing what it actually does plainly say.

Click to expand...

I don't know? I have seen a verse that said, that many are called but, not that all are called?
M-Bob

xjohnson said:

I'd like to share my thoughts with all of you and get your response to it. Thanks in advance.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism are defective in explaining the salvation process.

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Yes, they are both wrong, and neither one can save a person, neither can save a soul; just like no religion on earth can save a soul..... only Jesus can (and does).

I don't see any value in any debate about them. (haven't seen any value in any debate about them online nor in person --- only wrangling about words and ungodly tension)

StevenBelievin said:

are all wrong and you're right?

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Most are all entirely wrong, yes.... decades ago people asked this question, and when shown from Scripture the truth, either they accepted the truth,
or they continued to deny it.

Mountainmanbob said:

I don't know? I have seen a verse that said, that many are called but, not that all are called?
M-Bob

Click to expand...

Some numbers are unlisted, and so are not called.

Mountainmanbob said:

I don't know? I have seen a verse that said, that many are called but, not that all are called?
M-Bob

Click to expand...

Could this be the verse your thinking of, the one I used twice in my post?
In this verse, Jesus speaking to the Jews.

This is the Parable of the Labourers in the field, ie, the Jews

Mat. 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Jesus' explanation to the Jews at that time, all of them were being Called, but only those whom God had Preordained, being those of the Election in particular would be Chosen.

Jesus was not speaking to or about Gentiles at that moment.

The Election only pertains to the Jews of that time, (Period) everyone for the last 2,000 yrs. have been Called, but only the Jews of that time were Chosen.

StevenBelievin said:

So You're saying John Calvin, John Bunyan, John Knox, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Matthew Henry, A.W. Pink, Louis Berkhof, J.I. Packer, R.C. Sproul, John Macarthur, Wayne Grudem, John Piper and a whole slew of other reformed theologians and pastors are all wrong and you're right? Sorry, I'm going to have to agree with them on this one, and I believe that they would agree with me that a plain reading of the text clearly shows that reformed theology is correct and that those who disagree are the ones who are injecting their presuppositions into the text.

Click to expand...

If one person teaches something wrong, 500 yrs. ago and through the course of time, in turn one by one continue to repeat or build upon that original wrong teaching, does that teaching then become the truth by it being taught for 500 yrs.?

If a person does not question a teaching, but only repeats it as given to them, does that mean they were taught the truth, or does it only mean they were taught something which they were also told was the truth and therefore they should believe it as given to them.

I do not see any significant difference between a false teaching of the Catholic Church and one of Calvinism or Arminianism.

Are there things which the Catholic Church has taught for at least 500 yrs. which are categorically wrong, is it a false teaching in your eyes?

Total Depravity
If salvation were direct, then our faith would cause regeneration (as it did with Abraham). However, our salvation is indirect because our faith first causes human adoption. Christ’s righteousness was exchanged with Abraham, then, as sons of Abraham, the second step is we inherit Christ's righteousness according to God’s promise to Abraham that his seed would inherit the righteousness. Therefore, we see salvation is indirect. Human adoption doesn't require regeneration. In fact, God commands us to make the choice of salvation, and God says it is a choice every human being is capable of making. This command is given three times in Deuteronomy 30, and each time God re-iterates that it is a human choice – a choice set before us. Moreover, God states unequivocally that this human choice is not a choice made in heaven in verses 11-12.


Deuteronomy 30:1
So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:6
Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?
13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.
15 See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,


The most common objection to Deuteronomy 30 comes from those who say this is part of the covenant of The Law and doesn’t pertain to the covenant of faith. However, Paul sets the record straight about the nature of the choice offered by Deuteronomy 30 in Romans 10:

Romans 10:5
For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone [for] the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes [in it] will not be disturbed.

This human choice in Deuteronomy 30 comes before regeneration, and after one has believed.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 11:17
“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ,who was I that I could stand in God's way?”

I don’t think complete free will is Biblical. I think it’s clear that, as it pertains to Salvation, God gives human beings a distinct, binary choice. Choose life or choose death. It does nothing to damage the sovereignty of God to command humans to choose between two options. For example, if I told my child “you can have pancakes or oatmeal for breakfast… but FYI, the pancakes are awesome,” I don’t lose my sovereignty over breakfast. My child cannot, for example, choose steak and eggs. So who determines breakfast – me or my child? I would say I have determined breakfast, and not my child because I have the ingredients for only those two choices. However, so has my child played a role. So who determines salvation – man or God? Yes! Man and God both play a role, but ultimately, we cannot make choices outside of the limited scope God gives us.

Joshua 24:22
Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Deuteronomy 19:15
A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses, a matter shall be confirmed.

As Romans 8:16-17 shows, both God’s spirit and our own spirit must play a role in salvation, just as Deuteronomy 30:19 says God calls heaven and earth as co-witnesses of the choice we make for salvation. One last point I’ll make about Total Depravity is that the Bible says The Law is good. The Bible also says that God has written His law on our hearts, and on the hearts of unbelievers, so that all are without excuse. We cannot be completely and entirely depraved if we have God’s good law written on our hearts so that we know the difference between good and evil. In fact, the very first sin was partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

In regards to Total Depravity, consider this; in the Garden of Eden, God Himself said:

Genesis 2:17
“but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

God Himself says man will know and be aware of both GOOD and evil. So if we have the knowledge of good… and as Romans 2:14-15 says, we have God’s good law written on our hearts (even the unsaved gentiles), how can we be completely depraved?

Deuteronomy 30 says that Life and Death (salvation – according to Romans 10) is a choice God sets before us. It is not too difficult for us to make that choice… and it is not a choice made by God in heaven.

Unconditional Election
Just how does God choose whom His holy people are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

Limited Atonement - Resurrection
Another interesting implication is that of the resurrection. Some believe that Christ’s sacrifice and redemption was limited, or only for those with faith. It is said that Christ only died for those who would have faith in Him. But allow me to offer another model. I believe that Christ’s redemption on the cross and subsequent resurrection was for all, but only those who are of faith will inherit life in the resurrection. In other words, because of Christ, all will be resurrected, but not all will enter the kingdom of heaven. That is only for those who believe the gospel and obtain the righteousness of Christ through the inheritance by kinship with Abraham.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

So Christ’s work resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.

Additionally, try to make sense of this apparent contradiction without this knowledge on resurrection:

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

This seems at first to be contradiction, but then you realize that Ezekiel is future prophecy. Numbers describes the law, and what now is. Because of Christ, that original judgment of death will be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Then, as John 5:28 says, there will be a resurrection of all – the good to a resurrection of life, and the evil to a resurrection of a second judgment and a second death.

Gup20 said:

Therefore, we see salvation is indirect. Human adoption doesn't require regeneration.

Click to expand...

Are you saying Regeneration is not needed for the Believer?

By the way when would Regeneration actually take place, and how?

Gup20 said:

I don’t think complete free will is Biblical. I think it’s clear that, as it pertains to Salvation, God gives human beings a distinct, binary choice. Choose life or choose death. It does nothing to damage the sovereignty of God to command humans to choose between two options.

Click to expand...

Are you able to demonstrate this belief of yours? Chpt. Vs

JIMINZ said:

Are you saying Regeneration is not needed for the Believer?

By the way when would Regeneration actually take place, and how?

Click to expand...

No my friend, I'm saying that faith doesn't require regeneration. In fact, if we look at the model of salvation by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ - Abraham - we see that a specific sequence emerges.


In both of these passages we see that the Holy Spirit's indwelling comes AFTER one believes, not before.

The Holy Spirit's indwelling is "circumcision of the heart." God testified regarding the covenant of faith with Abraham in the Torah so that we would have a model of salvation. God made that covenant of faith with Abraham 430 years before the law even existed... so the covenant of faith is truly apart from and outside of the law.



God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when Abraham believed the gospel, he was credited as righteous. This is the righteousness of faith. It differs from the righteousness which is based on following the law of Moses.


Let me remind you of Ephesians 1:


So in Abraham's case, circumcision is the seal of the righteousness of faith, and in the case of Ephesians, the Holy Spirit's indwelling is the seal of the righteousness of faith. They are, in fact, one in the same. Circumcision is an old testament shadow or representation of the Holy Spirit's indwelling.


What better picture is there than circumcision where the dead, outer flesh being cut away to reveal the living, inner man? This is why circumcision was to be the symbol rather than something less invasive such as wearing a certain color robe or wearing a certain jewel or something.

Also note the function of the organ is reproduction. Abraham's descendants inherit the promise... Abraham's descendants are the ones who obtain righteousness.

Gup20 said: ↑
I don’t think complete free will is Biblical. I think it’s clear that, as it pertains to Salvation, God gives human beings a distinct, binary choice. Choose life or choose death. It does nothing to damage the sovereignty of God to command humans to choose between two options.

Click to expand...

Are you able to demonstrate this belief of yours? Chpt. Vs

Click to expand...

This passage from Romans 10 is drawing a distinction between the righteousness which comes by faith and the righteousness which comes by following the law. As its example of the righteousness of faith, it quotes heavily from Deuteronomy 30. Well Deuteronomy 30 says 3 times that life and death, the blessing and the curse are a choice God gives man. It is summed up in verse 19:


See how this passage noting the distinct, binary choice is quoted by Paul above in Romans 10? Paul explicitly states this passage is in regards to the righteousness which comes by faith. He says this choice is "not in heaven" and that the choice is "not too difficult for us." This ruins the Calvinistic theory of Total Depravity. It says we do not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to hear the gospel (who will go up to heaven to get it for us and make us hear it that we may observe it).

The passage says God placed before us a choice; life or death. And then in case we were uncertain He tells us, "Choose life." Note the parallels between Deuteronomy 30 and Romans 8:16 (which you can see above).

I call heaven and earth to witness...
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit...

So you have heaven (the Spirit Himself) and earth (our spirit) baring witness (which means to testify) of the choice we make for ourselves between life and death. It is choice that is not too difficult for us, and it is a choice not made in heaven.

Gup20 said:

Therefore, we see salvation is indirect. Human adoption doesn't require regeneration.

Click to expand...

Therefore are you saying, (Salvation and Adoption) are synonyms?

Gup20 said:

No my friend, I'm saying that faith doesn't require regeneration.

Click to expand...

Alright, (Faith) does not require Regeneration, that is for one to become a Believer....Got it.

Are you saying the Believer is not Regenerated ever?

Does Christ require the Regeneration of the Believer?

Gup20 said:

The Holy Spirit's indwelling is "circumcision of the heart." God testified regarding the covenant of faith with Abraham in the Torah so that we would have a model of salvation.

Click to expand...

Does this "Circumcision of the Heart" take place when we Believe?
Is this Indwelling of the Holy Spirit the Regeneration or no?

JIMINZ said:

Therefore are you saying, (Salvation and Adoption) are synonyms?

Click to expand...

Functionally, yes. However, Adoption comes first which leads to salvation. For there is an intermediary step; we are adopted as children of Abraham. Then, the children of Abraham INHERIT the righteousness.

Alright, (Faith) does not require Regeneration, that is for one to become a Believer....Got it.

Are you saying the Believer is not Regenerated ever?

Click to expand...

No, the believer is regenerated. Once they believe the gospel, they are given righteousness for their faith. The Holy Spirit then comes as a seal of the righteousness of faith, just like Abraham was circumcised as a seal of the righteousness of faith. But the gift of the Holy Spirit in us is a pledge of the full inheritance yet to come.

Does Christ require the Regeneration of the Believer?

Click to expand...

Not as a prerequisite for salvation, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a gift for those who believe.

Does this "Circumcision of the Heart" take place when we Believe?
Is this Indwelling of the Holy Spirit the Regeneration or no?

Click to expand...

Yes, circumcision of the heart IS the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It happens AFTER we believe.

Gup20 said:

Yes, circumcision of the heart IS the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It happens AFTER we believe.

Click to expand...

But is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Circumcision of the Heart (Regeneration)?

JIMINZ said:

But is the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Circumcision of the Heart (Regeneration)?

Click to expand...

Regeneration is a Calvinistic word meant to indicate a person has partially recovered from Total Depravity. It's not a Biblical term.

[Rom 5:12 NASB] 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

[Rom 8:10 NASB] 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

[Gal 3:21 NASB] 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

So the implication is clear; since death came as a result of sin, then life comes as a result of righteousness. Once we obtain righteousness, a part of us - the righteous inner man - is alive again.

As we see in Romans 4, Abraham was made righteous while he was uncircumcised. Therefore, we know that righteousness comes before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Also, Ephesians 1:13-14 and Acts 11:17 say the indwelling comes AFTER belief.

So the sequence is this: preaching, hearing, believing, righteousness, Holy Spirit, spiritual life (regeneration), resurrection of the body at the coming of Christ, great white throne judgment.