Amillenialism and the nation of Israel

Grip Docility said:

The word Preterism may seem applicable in many circles, but suggesting that the New Jerusalem is already here, or All tears are wiped away... or “Most” Future Prophecy is Fulfilled is where I can safely say, I am not a “Preterist”.

Click to expand...

The point that's been attempted to be made repeatedly is that ALL Christians have to be some degree of a preterist - or else they'd be waiting for ALL biblical prophecy to be fulfilled (even the birth....death....resurrection of Jesus).

mkgal1 said:

I just wanted to add that I see a key phrase in Revelation 21:4 that ought to be pointed out:

Rev 21:4 ~ "....... for the old order of things has passed away."​

Doesn't that seem to signify a change of some sort?

What do you believe the "old order of things" is - and are we still waiting for it to pass away? I believe that if a person IS still waiting for the "old order of things" to pass away - then they are ALSO needing to include their salvation - their personal resurrection to life - is something they are also waiting for. As Claninja is pointing out (how I am understanding, anyway).....THIS is the "old order" that was overturned (it's continually being done through Christ's death):

1 Corinthians 15:22 ~ For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.​

Click to expand...

This change is much more drastic in the physical realm.

Christ made Spiritual changes, but the Physical changes are yet to come.

Death still exists as does tears.

We mustn’t ignore what is yet to come.

mkgal1 said:

The point that's been attempted to be made repeatedly is that ALL Christians have to be some degree of a preterist - or else they'd be waiting for ALL biblical prophecy to be fulfilled (even the birth....death....resurrection of Jesus).

Click to expand...

Sure, but there are lines that distinguish a genuine Preterist from an individual that is honest about the literal prophecy that hasn’t occurred yet.

I love peace, but honesty has to come in to play at some point.

We can all agree on Jesus, but preterism ignores far too much for me to accept what theological terms are used to identify myself as a “Preterist”.

All tears haven’t been wiped away yet... fact.

The idea of arguing this is to ignore the pain that exists today.

Grip Docility said:

Christ made Spiritual changes, but the Physical changes are yet to come.

Death still exists as does tears.

We mustn’t ignore what is yet to come.

Click to expand...

I agree. We have hope, because Jesus lives.

Grip Docility said:

Sure, but there are lines that distinguish a genuine Preterist from an individual that is honest about the literal prophecy that hasn’t occurred yet.

I love peace, but honesty has to come on to play at some point.

We can all agree on Jesus, but preterism ignores far too much for me to accept what theological terms are used to identify myself as a “Preterist”.

All tears haven’t been wiped away yet... fact.

The idea of arguing this is to ignore the pain that exists today.

Click to expand...

I'm trying to point out that "preterist" isn't such a distant definition from ALL Christians.....but you respond with comments like this: "Genuine Preterist" VS an individual that's honest about the literal prophecy that's not occurred yet? Honesty has to come in to play at some point? Inferring that the varying beliefs of fulfilled prophecy that are further up the scale from what you believe are dishonest?

Let's try this again about the wiping away of tears: you don't find comfort and hope in believing that life doesn't end at death? It's not comforting to you that Jesus "takes away the sin of this world" (including your own)? That "Death has no sting"? That....in the end....God's plan wins out? None of that offers you hope and comfort?

I'm not speaking for any other posters - I'm not ignoring that pain and suffering exists today. I'm merely saying that there IS hope - that His plan wins out in the end - and that He already has "the reigns".

mkgal1 said:

I'm trying to point out that "preterist" isn't such a distant definition from ALL Christians.....but you respond with comments like this: "Genuine Preterist" VS an individual that's honest about the literal prophecy that's not occurred yet? Honesty has to come in to play at some point? Inferring that the varying beliefs of fulfilled prophecy that are further up the scale from what you believe are dishonest?

Let's try this again about the wiping away of tears: you don't find comfort and hope in believing that life doesn't end at death? It's not comforting to you that Jesus "takes away the sin of this world" (including your own)? That "Death has no sting"? That....in the end....God's plan wins out? None of that offers you hope and comfort?

I'm not speaking for any other posters - I'm not ignoring that pain and suffering exists today. I'm merely saying that there IS hope - that His plan wins out in the end - and that He already has "the reigns".

Click to expand...

When people lose their Children here and now, tears aren’t wiped away. There are still tears.

That verse of comfort doesn’t meld into the idea that death has been physically removed.

We hope for the day physical death no longer occurs. That’s why I can’t concede on this pint.

Grip Docility said:

When people lose their Children here and now, tears aren’t wiped away. There are still tears.

That verse of comfort doesn’t meld into the idea that death has been physically removed.

Click to expand...

That's not what I'm trying to suggest - that there's literally no sorrow, no evil, in this world.

mkgal1 said:

That's not what I'm trying to suggest - that there's literally no sorrow, no evil, in this world.

Click to expand...

That’s why I find it painful when “Preterists” of whatever type of extreme, equate no more tears to Physical and Spiritual meanings, simultaneously fulfilled.

Christ doesn’t reign here on earth as King. He reigns in Heaven. All isn’t complete yet, and that’s my point.

I’m relieved you make this distinction.

Not all, do.

Quoting from linked article:

He who was seated on the throne said, ‘I am making everything new!’ — Revelation 21:5 NIV, emphasis mine

The Greek word John uses for new is kainos. Kainos is not the common word used in the New Testament for new, which is neos. Neos is when you take an old car and overhaul it and restore it. Or when you take an antique piece of furniture and refurbish it and say, “Just like new!”

Kainos represents something completely and comprehensively new, totally new, brand-new! And kainos is used in 2 Corinthians 5:17 where Paul wrote,

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! — NIV, emphasis mine

He is describing you and me. The new creation has already begun. This is why theologians refer to God’s plan of redeeming all that is fallen in the universe as “the already and the not yet.”

The curse has been reversed, is being reversed, and will someday be reversed. We define this reality with a four-letter word known as hope.

In his book Surprised by Hope, N. T. Wright wrote, “Easter was when Hope in person surprised the whole world by coming forward from the future into the present.”1

The mission of the church is to bring the future into the present. - Hope: The Already and the Not Yet

mkgal1 said:

Quoting from linked article:

He who was seated on the throne said, ‘I am making everything new!’ — Revelation 21:5 NIV, emphasis mine

The Greek word John uses for new is kainos. Kainos is not the common word used in the New Testament for new, which is neos. Neos is when you take an old car and overhaul it and restore it. Or when you take an antique piece of furniture and refurbish it and say, “Just like new!”

Kainos represents something completely and comprehensively new, totally new, brand-new! And kainos is used in 2 Corinthians 5:17 where Paul wrote,

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! — NIV, emphasis mine

He is describing you and me. The new creation has already begun. This is why theologians refer to God’s plan of redeeming all that is fallen in the universe as “the already and the not yet.”

The curse has been reversed, is being reversed, and will someday be reversed. We define this reality with a four-letter word known as hope.

In his book Surprised by Hope, N. T. Wright wrote, “Easter was when Hope in person surprised the whole world by coming forward from the future into the present.”1

The mission of the church is to bring the future into the present. - Hope: The Already and the Not Yet

Click to expand...

Jesus said it is a time the Father appointed and no man knows the day nor the hour.

If hope, faith and Love, in Christ is the Churches mission, I’m fully supportive, as that is the invisible Bodies call to bring into the world.

We know that one day... two things will happen... (Matthew 24:12; and also Matthew 24:22)

We know this hasn’t happened yet, because it binds to 1 Peter... (1 Peter 3:9-13), which binds to (Revelation 21 - Revelation 22)

As for bringing the future in relation to Eschatology... I don’t subscribe to that, which in no way assume you are insinuating, but I wanted to clarify.

I clearly believe Israel existing on earth again is the work of God. As for Christians that are attempting to help the Jews rebuild the Ceremonial Temple, In Earthly Jerusalem, I am not in agreement with that.

Jesus is clearly identified as the very Temple of God By Jesus, Himself and the book of Revelation. (John 2:19 and Revelation 21:22)

I want to make it clear though... only God brings about “the future”. His body serves in the present... just as Jesus, though God, Corporeally did... Per Philippians 2, while trusting God to cover “the future”. My opinion.

Another article:

And so, what are the “former things”? It’s a theme that winds throughout Isaiah. The meaning is first explained to us in c 42, part of the “Servant’s Song,” which is highly Messianic —

5 Thus says God, the Lord,
who created the heavens and stretched them out,
who spread out the earth and what comes from it,
who gives breath to the people on it
and spirit to those who walk in it:

6 “I am the Lord; I have called you in righteousness;
I will take you by the hand and keep you;
I will give you as a covenant for the people,
a light for the nations,

7 to open the eyes that are blind,
to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon,
from the prison those who sit in darkness.

8 I am the Lord; that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.

9 Behold, the former things have come to pass,
and new things I now declare;
before they spring forth
I tell you of them.”

Here, the “former things” are God’s mighty works: the creation, the Mosaic covenant. And he promises further mighty acts. -

Click to expand...

mkgal1 said:

Another article:

Click to expand...

Okay, sincerely... The New Heaven and New Earth isn’t now.

No matter how much you desire that to be theologically true, by passage selection inference... it isn’t.

Jesus sits on His throne in Heaven... (Corporeally. Revelation 4:2)

The New Heaven and New Earth will be marked by Jesus’ Corporeal Presence. (Revelation 21:1-2, Revelation 21:7, and Revelation 22:1-5 and Revelation 22:12-13)

In Heaven, we are partakers with Christ... but the New Earth is far from here! And the “New Heaven” is a result of the “New Jerusalem” coming down...

This is straight biblical, and it only takes a second of reasoning to see Jesus isn’t King, on Earth, Corporeally, here and now.

To say otherwise is just plain ignoring the facts that are Spiritually, Physically and Emotionally manifested in this Sin Ridden, rotting, decaying Planet.

jgr said:

However, it is in contrast to "genea" in Matthew 24:34 (and the numerous others that parousia70 has identified) original Greek, defined as "the whole multitude of men living at the same time", in that instance, those who would suffer the punishments of 70 AD.

Reference to the Greek is virtually essential to dispel confusion in cases such as this.

Click to expand...

This is just so Beyond outrageous, it’s dogma at its finest. It says that in the Greek?

That’s a negative. The pattern is full. You’re reading and forcing that into the Greek.

At no point does it read “suffer the punishments of 70 AD”. And for that matter, Christ’s major charge against that Generation was their lack of mercy. You’re waiting to see the entire race of unbelieving Jews, flambeed in Hell Fire, how ever far you recognize the race that is now literally Bound to God Incarnate by Physical DNA!

Grip Docility said:

This is straight biblical, and it only takes a second of reasoning to see Jesus isn’t King, on Earth, Corporeally, here and now.

Click to expand...

This honestly is disheartening to me to see this posted so often here.

Do you not consider yourself a "citizen" of the Kingdom of God now? You're waiting for that?

Do you not believe that Jesus conquered sin? There is still sin in this world - but we believe He was the Lamb that takes away the sin of this world. Since you don't see that (because sin still exists) - do you also see that as a future event that you're waiting for?

Grip Docility said:

We bypass judgment and spiritually live, but we indeed physically die.

Click to expand...

I would disagree that we bypass judgment. Scripture is clear that ALL of us will appear before the judgment seat of God to receive what is due for what we have done while in the flesh, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Romans 14:10-12 For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confessb to God.”So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

Grip Docility said:

All tiers aren’t wiped away yet.

Click to expand...

I agree, but that doesn't mean God doesn't wipe away our tears when we go through trials. He absolutely does. I have seen it first had.

Grip Docility said:

The word Preterism may seem applicable in many circles, but suggesting that the New Jerusalem is already here, or All tears are wiped away... or “Most” Future Prophecy is Fulfilled is where I can safely say, I am not a “Preterist”.

Click to expand...

But you would be a preterist in the sense that the 1st advent of Jesus has occurred, thus fulfilling many prophesies of the OT.

mkgal1 said:

This honestly is disheartening to me to see this posted so often here.

Do you not consider yourself a "citizen" of the Kingdom of God now? You're waiting for that?

Do you not believe that Jesus conquered sin? There is still sin in this world - but we believe He was the Lamb that takes away the sin of this world. Since you don't see that (because sin still exists) - do you also see that as a future event that you're waiting for?

Click to expand...

I have no issue posting this. King means ruler, leader, Head of the system.

Jesus is absolutely not King of the Earth! The System of Physical Death remains. Jesus did this... (Hebrews 2:14)...

His throne is currently in (Heaven)... (Revelation 4:2)

This isn’t a crass statement or denial of faith, but a longing for the day when His throne IS set down here.

This is a false theological assertion to say “Jesus is King of the Earth”... meant to be shown as a terrible thing if it is contested.

Allow me to submit proof Jesus isn’t King of the Earth Currently.

“I’m not a Jew, am I?” Pilate replied. “Your own nation and the chief priests handed You over to me. What have You done?” 36 “My kingdom is not of this world,” said Jesus. “If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I wouldn’t be handed over to the Jews. As it is, My kingdom does not have its origin here.” “You are a king then?” Pilate asked. “You say that I’m a king,” Jesus replied. “I was born for this, and I have come into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to My voice.”
John 18:35-37 - Bible Gateway passage: John 18:35-37 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now... His Kingdom remains IN HEAVEN, until the time of the END. The Omega, From the Alpha and Omega!

This is Jesus speaking!

The only reason the Church has ever taught the Eschatologically Fallacious idea that Jesus has already set His kingdom up on earth is to allow the Church to rule “Theocratically”, with men claiming to speak for GOD!

This is not okay!

claninja said:

I would disagree that we bypass judgment. Scripture is clear that ALL of us will appear before the judgment seat of God to receive what is due for what we have done while in the flesh, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Romans 14:10-12 For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confessb to God.”So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment




I agree, but that doesn't mean God doesn't wipe away our tears when we go through trials. He absolutely does. I have seen it first had.



But you would be a preterist in the sense that the 1st advent of Jesus has occurred, thus fulfilling many prophesies of the OT.

Click to expand...

This is outrageous to say, as it contests Christ’s words... You are misusing scripture! The scriptures you are citing are as misused as the passages that are used to proof the fallacious doctrine of “The Investigative Judgment”!

You are casting aside the blood to exalt Preterism and ignore biblical context!

No... I am NO Preterist as the fallacious arguments that rip scripture from context to proof itself are nothing I desire to be a part of.

24 “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life. 25 “I assure you: An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 5:24-25 - Bible Gateway passage: John 5:24-25 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

That’s the King of Heaven, that will be the King of the Earth, at the appointed time, which hasn’t occurred yet, speaking!

The deception now being employed... suspected...

“All are Preterists”...

“I’m not a Full Preterist”...

Yet... people are claiming the Great White Throne is now present on Earth and Jesus is responsible as King of the earth, currently, for this sinful, Devil driven debacle, we call Earthly Experience, in The here and now!

Ugggg!

He hasn’t returned yet and per my suspicion, even those that claim to be partial Preterists, seem to be struggling to say Christ has set His Kingdom on earth up in 70 AD, which kicks it all back to (Full Preterism).

I’m disturbing for pointing out that physical death hasn’t been conquered yet and Wickedness still remains?

Serial Killers
Rapists
Extortion
Homelessness
Children Taken and Murdered
Starvation
Physical Death
Cancer
Aids
Isis
Oh for pete’s Sake!

!!!!! This ain’t Christ’s Kingdom, currently!

When the King returns... these things will be abolished!

Grip Docility said:

I have no issue posting this. King means ruler, leader, Head of the system.

Jesus is absolutely not King of the Earth! The System of Physical Death remains. Jesus did this... (Hebrews 2:14)...

Click to expand...

And a ruler needs citizens that follow the King's rulership. I didn't post "ruler of the earth" but He certainly has citizens ON Earth. I'm of the belief that He is my King, the Lord of Lord's, and worthy of all honor and praise. Didn't Jesus, Himself, say His Kingdom was already amongst those living and breathing, walking and talking on the earth during His first time on Earth?

Grip Docility said:

“My kingdom is not of this world,” said Jesus. “If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I wouldn’t be handed over to the Jews. As it is, My kingdom does not have its origin here.” “You are a king then?” Pilate asked. “You say that I’m a king,” Jesus replied. “I was born for this, and I have come into the world for this: to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of

Click to expand...

There's a distinction Jesus was making there - but it's not about location. Instead, it's a difference between HOW God's Kingdom differs from human Kingdoms.

Grip Docility said:

The only reason the Church has ever taught the Eschatologically Fallacious idea that Jesus has already set His kingdom up on earth is to allow the Church to rule “Theocratically”, with men claiming to speak for GOD!

This is not okay!

Click to expand...

I agree that's not okay, but that's also not how God rules.

mkgal1 said:

And a ruler needs citizens that follow the King's rulership. I'm of the belief that He is my King, the Lord of Lord's, and worthy of all honor and praise. Didn't Jesus, Himself, say His Kingdom was already amongst those living and breathing, walking and talking on the earth during His first time on Earth?

Luke 17:21 - Don’t you see? God’s kingdom is already among you.”
​

There's a distinction Jesus was making there - but it's not about location. Instead, it's a difference between HOW God's Kingdom differs from human Kingdoms.


I agree that's not okay, but that's also not how God rules.

Click to expand...

He is our King and our citizenship is not of this Earth! We don’t dwell with the Corporeal King yet, nor does Earth Manifest the Corporeal King’s Rule, yet.

Do you disagree?