Explaining the disastrous “grace-only” doctrine

Hammster · May 13, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
(earlier "too bad" is so - a simple question was asked, and side-stepped; not answered. here's the question again, in plain english >> )

It may not have been the “gotcha” answer you were hoping for, but it wasn’t sidestepped.

yeshuaslavejeff · May 13, 2019

Hammster said:
It may not have been the “gotcha” answer you were hoping for, but it wasn’t sidestepped.

Actually, it was better than the "gotcha" answer , revealing some of the motives of the heart - but I WAS HOPING you would have been more honest and answered the question.

Calvin_1985 · May 13, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
So far, not one person anywhere that I know of, has ever shown that Yahuweh the Creator EVER takes away a person's free will, their ability to choose, before they die,

except when He gives them over to believe their own delusions.(for unbelievers)

Yeah, we have free will.

Hammster · May 13, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Actually, it was better than the "gotcha" answer , revealing some of the motives of the heart - but I WAS HOPING you would have been more honest and answered the question.

I did answer.

RDKirk · May 13, 2019

Hammster said:
As Luther stated, we are saved (made righteous) by faith alone. But a faith that saves is never alone.

If a man is not regenerated, he will never believe. He may say he does, but it will just be a religious experience, and not true faith. So all of the “sanctifying” works will not gain him anything.

However, if a man is regenerate, he will believe, and there will be good works that follow.

I am neither Calvinist nor Lutheran, but I do understand and agree with what is said here.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. -- Hebrews 11

The ancient Greeks had words to define impalpable concepts, if an impalpable concept is what they mean to describe. In this case, the writer does not define faith as an impalpable concept, he defines faith as a real thing, a palpable thing.

If I'm hoping to win the lottery, it's because I have a lottery ticket in my hand. The ticket in my hand is the substance of my hope. "Substance" is not impalpable. When he says "substance" he is not speaking of something impalpable. There was no such idea to the Greeks as an "impalpable substance."

Then he doubles down on it: He calls faith "evidence." If a forensic scientist studies a crime scene, sees a bloody knife, sees blood spatters on the wall, collects four pints of blood from the floor, and determines that they're all from the same person, he will announce "There is a dead body somewhere" even if he sees no body...based on the evidence he has in his hands. "Evidence" is not an impalpable thing. There was no such idea to the Greeks as "impalpable evidence."

If a person has faith, he knows he has faith. It is something he feels. It kicks his butt off his seat. It pulls him to his feet. It demands his attention and his action. It dogs his inattention, it discomfits his inaction.

Faith does not leave him alone.

If a man claims "I have faith" but is content to sit on his butt and fold his hands, then whatever he has, it's not what anyone in scripture is talking about.

frogoon234 · May 13, 2019

Calvin_1985 said:
What is the video about?

It is about advanced geometry and other dimensions. It somewhat relates to the book "Flatland" by Abbot Abbot. That book influenced Albert Einstein.

Mark Quayle · May 13, 2019

redleghunter said:
You are most welcome. MacArthur took a lot of flak from fellow Evangelicals when he wrote that piece and his book “The Gospel according to Jesus.” He was accused of works righteousness or “Lordship salvation.” All he did was establish Biblical truth and doctrine.

I don't imagine McArthur also wrote the OP's Title, lol.

Calvin_1985 · May 13, 2019

frogoon234 said:
It is about advanced geometry and other dimensions. It somewhat relates to the book "Flatland" by Abbot Abbot. That book influenced Albert Einstein.

Sounds cool..I'll check it out. Have you ever heard of Mike Hoggart?

frogoon234 · May 13, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
All this and more you have posted is directly contrary to Scripture,
and comes from the enemy of Christ/ and / or/ pagan religions.

Ofcourse there is some correlation between the laws of physics and scripture. King Solomon was a scientist and so were many of the other ancient jews. How is it contrary to scripture. Please explain?

frogoon234 · May 13, 2019

Aldebaran said:
It stands for Born Again Christian.

thanks

frogoon234 · May 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
Hey, why don't you just ...
read and understand Scripture
via the leading of the Holy Spirit.
(Wouldn't dare suggest you understand
Scripture via spiritual revelation ...
dat would sound too charismatic.)

nonsense. I have the Holy Spirit just like you and every other Christian on this forum.

frogoon234 · May 13, 2019

Calvin_1985 said:
Sounds cool..I'll check it out. Have you ever heard of Mike Hoggart?

I sometimes watch sermons online. I'll watch him tonight unless you have specific one you want me to look at.

Calvin_1985 · May 13, 2019

frogoon234 said:
I sometimes watch sermons online. I'll watch him tonight unless you have specific one you want me to look at.

He has a video on DNA. It's a long watch, a couple of hours, but well worth it. I don't know if he has any sermons or anything though, but his video about DNA is awesome.

Mark Quayle · May 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
The following is only one PROOF
against the “grace-only” doctrine:

“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to
the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30)

From above, BACs are predestined for 2 things:
(1) – to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus
(2) – to be called, justified, and glorified

God does (2) w/o any co-operation from BACs!
However, BACs are involved in (1) because they are not robots; they have free-will to co-operate, or not co-operate!

WHY does God predestine BACs to be conformed to become like Jesus?
(1) – for walking around in this life? ... or ...
(2) – for preparing to be qualified for heaven?

If this is about (2) … then we’re talking about
being prepared for salvation and for heaven!

Being conformed to the image of Jesus is called “sanctification”. To be sanctified means to be set apart (and to be made holy) … and … there is a positional sanctification, and then a progressive sanctification.

Will the instantaneous justification of a believer make him like Jesus? NO.
Man is made up of 3 parts: body, soul, and spirit.
Our whole being (body, soul, spirit) is to be made into Jesus’ likeness!

Now, returning to Romans 8:28-30 above …
All of the underlined items are the major parts of God’s saving work.
God will NOT justify those He does NOT sanctify.
There is NO separating justification and sanctification so much … that we focus on one and ignore the other.
God does NOT offer justification as a stand-alone means of salvation.
Justification cannot be isolated and made to represent all of God’s saving work!

JUSTIFICATION (taking Jesus as SAVIOR)
SANCTIFICATION (making Jesus our LORD)

If we take Jesus as SAVIOR,
then we also take Him as LORD.
Which do you prefer “Savior and LORD”
or “LORD and Savior”?
There are NT verses for both.

What is required for the believer to be progressively sanctified unto holiness?
Co-operation with the precious Holy Spirit, obedience, and repenting of sins.
Believers who are habitually sinning
are not on the narrow path to heaven!

I think you misunderstand "By...Grace Alone".

No Reformed believer that I am familiar with denies the person being entirely involved.

This makes me think of demonic encounters I have had, where I am there, I have to deal with the demon, I am the one involved and it involves my whole being, yet the reference is of necessity to Jesus Christ, and I am not at all the one who does the work, though the rush of attack upon me feels like I am going to die. But it isn't even my struggle though it may kill me. It is ALL Christ.

Cooperation is a silly word in this. It is not as though Christ does his part and I do mine. It is all Christ. I'm just there, and it consumes me. God never asked my permission.

BCsenior · May 13, 2019

nolidad said:
In light of all these Biblical Truths, please tell me how can one lose their salvation!

In light of all the many dire warnings in the NT,
one may indeed lose his/her salvation.
Some of these verses are in this thread ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

frogoon234 · May 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
In light of all the many dire warnings in the NT,
one may indeed lose his/her salvation.
Some of these verses are in this thread ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Mark 9:43 “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell,
into the fire that shall never be quenched”

This is refering to the non christian mainly. The saved person is a new creature so that hand isn't an issue. I would argue however (even though eternal suffering isn't a consequence for the christian) that a christian should go to great lengths to avoid sin just to avoid temporal punishment and also to get better rewards when he/she goes to heaven.

1st Corinthians chapter 3

BCsenior · May 13, 2019

Mark Quayle said:
Cooperation is a silly word in this. It is not as though Christ does his part and I do mine. It is all Christ. I'm just there, and it consumes me. God never asked my permission.

Cooperation is the KEY word in this.
But, as for you ... we are not talking about what's involved in deliverance ... we're talking about what's involved in gaining eternal life.

Salvation is a process because sanctification is a
process of transforming the BAC unto holiness
... and ...
"without holiness no one will see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14)

frogoon234 · May 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
Cooperation is the KEY word in this.
But, as for you ... we are not talking about what's involved in deliverance ... we're talking about what's involved in gaining eternal life.

Salvation is a process because sanctification is a
process of transforming the BAC unto holiness ...
and "without holiness no one will see the Lord."

it is true that without Holiness no one will see the Lord. But it is the righteousness of Jesus Christ that is counted, not our own works that are counted.

timothyu · May 13, 2019

It seems to me that those who self justify themselves are still of the world of man and not of the Kingdom, for that is what flesh does..

aiki · May 13, 2019

BCsenior said:
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to
the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30)

From above, BACs are predestined for 2 things:
(1) – to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus
(2) – to be called, justified, and glorified

God does (2) w/o any co-operation from BACs!
However, BACs are involved in (1) because they are not robots; they have free-will to co-operate, or not co-operate!

All of what you've written here is uncontroversial. It is basic Christian truth.

BCsenior said:
WHY does God predestine BACs to be conformed to become like Jesus?
(1) – for walking around in this life? ... or ...
(2) – for preparing to be qualified for heaven?

What you've offered here is a false dichotomy. These aren't the only two options. Here are some other biblical reasons God conforms His children to the likeness of Christ:

- God wants to glorify Himself in and through us.
- God wants His children to be ambassadors of Christ to a lost and dying world.
- Living like Christ is the best way to live.

And so on.

BCsenior said:
If this is about (2) … then we’re talking about
being prepared for salvation and for heaven!

But being prepared for eternity with God is not the sole reason God works by His Spirit to make us more like Christ.

BCsenior said:
Will the instantaneous justification of a believer make him like Jesus? NO.
Man is made up of 3 parts: body, soul, and spirit.
Our whole being (body, soul, spirit) is to be made into Jesus’ likeness!

??? We are supposed to be physically - in body - like Jesus? Women are supposed to become male? Are we all to be the same height as Jesus? Really? Are we supposed to have the same hair and eye color, too? Come on, now, this is silly. When the Bible speaks of being like Christ, it means we are to manifest his holiness, wisdom, love, faithfulness and grace. We are also going to be like him in respect to being raised to a glorified body, free of the corruption and impulses of sin.

BCsenior said:
JUSTIFICATION (taking Jesus as SAVIOR)
SANCTIFICATION (making Jesus our LORD)

This is not how the Bible defines justification and sanctification.

BCsenior said:
What is required for the believer to be progressively sanctified unto holiness?
Co-operation with the precious Holy Spirit, obedience, and repenting of sins.

One does not co-operate with the Holy Spirit but submits in humble dependence upon him (Romans 12:1; James 4:7; James 4:10; 1 Peter 5:6, etc). He works in us the character of Christ (Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Galatians 5:22-23, etc.). We simply receive and manifest the life of Christ; we don't create it ourselves. We are not equal partners with the Spirit in our sanctification and transformation. We can only work out what He has first worked into us. (Philippians 2:12-13)

BCsenior said:
Believers who are habitually sinning
are not on the narrow path to heaven!

Possibly. But this is by no means certain. See Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.

Explaining the disastrous “grace-only” doctrine

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