LDS LDS: "WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT!"

mmksparbud said:

You are free top continue in what JS taught all you want---
Luk 22:39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.
Luk 22:40 And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
Luk 22:41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
Luk 22:43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
Luk 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Luk 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
Luk 22:46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.


Are you saying that is was God's will for Him to sweat blood? Many people have done so.
It can be possible for someone to sweat blood if they rupture one or more of the sweat producing ducts. Because this is quite rare and the sweat producing ducts are so small, it is extremely hard to do. Even then, you aren't really sweating blood but rather bleeding from the duct.

A thorough search of the medical literature demonstrates that such a condition, while admittedly rare, does occur in humans. Commonly referred to as hematidrosis or hemohidrosis, this condition results in the excretion of blood or blood pigment in the sweat.

Under extreme stress---even animals have done so!

Again---the lamb bled to death---not just bled. It is death that is the price of sin, not bleeding from sweat pores!! The blood of the Lamb cleanses, because He shed it to the death! And unlike people and animals, He, who was pure and sinless, is the only one that can pay the price of death for our sins. It is His total shed blood, to the death, that paid the oprice for our sins.

And by the way----our SDA lawyers have represented Muslims, JW's, and Mormons in religious liberty cases. You can believe anything you want and I will defend your right to do so----I do not have to believe what you believe.

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You said: "Under extreme stress---even animals have done so!" Jesus was the only begotten of God the Father, the greatest of all, yet he was in agony and bled from every pore.

He is the way said:

You said: "Under extreme stress---even animals have done so!" Jesus was the only begotten of God the Father, the greatest of all, yet he was in agony and bled from every pore.

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Yes, and please state the verse that says they only cut the sacrificial lamb just enough to get it to bleed and that was sufficient to blot out the sins of the congregation! YES, JESUS WAS IN AGONY OVER THE DECISION TO GO THROUGH WITH THE CRUCIFIXTION!! Severe agony, and like these people, and even animals under severe stress, He bled sweat. If that was sufficient to pay the price for sin, then He absolutely need not have died!!! The price for sin is not sweating blood, it is death. If blood itself paid the price, the whipping would have been sufficient also and again, He need not have died!

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Reproduction of Roman scourge

EUSABIOUS OF CEASARE, "their bodies were frightfully lacerated. Christian martyrs in Smyrna were so torn by the scourges that their veins were laid bare, and the inner muscles, sinews, even entrails, were exposed." (Westminster Dictionary of the Bible page 538) In other words, if the Roman lictors (two soldiers on either side who took turns) weren't careful they could cut major veins or disembowel the victim, causing prematurely death.

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mmksparbud said:

Yes, and please state the verse that says they only cut the sacrificial lamb just enough to get it to bleed and that was sufficient to blot out the sins of the congregation! YES, JESUS WAS IN AGONY OVER THE DECISION TO GO THROUGH WITH THE CRUCIFIXTION!! Severe agony, and like these people, and even animals under severe stress, He bled sweat. If that was sufficient to pay the price for sin, then He absolutely need not have died!!! The price for sin is not sweating blood, it is death. If blood itself paid the price, the whipping would have been sufficient also and again, He need not have died!

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Reproduction of Roman scourge

EUSABIOUS OF CEASARE, "their bodies were frightfully lacerated. Christian martyrs in Smyrna were so torn by the scourges that their veins were laid bare, and the inner muscles, sinews, even entrails, were exposed." (Westminster Dictionary of the Bible page 538) In other words, if the Roman lictors (two soldiers on either side who took turns) weren't careful they could cut major veins or disembowel the victim, causing prematurely death.

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You said: YES, JESUS WAS IN AGONY OVER THE DECISION TO GO THROUGH WITH THE CRUCIFIXTION!!

The Bible does not say Christ's agony was over the decision to go through with the crucifixion. You are adding your own perspective to the situation. Neither did I say that all of the atonement took place in the garden. That being said Jesus was not the only one tortured, taunted, and crucified. He was the only sinless one to be crucified although some may have been crucified for sins they did not commit, but they were not sinless. From my understanding many of those that were tortured died before they could be hung on a cross. I do not believe that Christ's agony in the garden had anything to do with the decision to go through with the crucifixion. Rather it was part of His atonement for our sins.

Phoebe Ann said:

He is the way, do not ignore the word of God which is more important than JS's misinterpretations:

LDS: "WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT!"

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It was not an interpretation of Joseph Smith, it was a revelation from God.

Phoebe Ann said:

Praying about a decision is not an atonement for the sins of others.

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Christ prayed for the cup to be removed if possible. Instead God the Father sent an angel to strengthen Him. I believe the decision had been made at that point. Christ continued to pray while He was in agony and He bled great drops of blood at every pore. No wonder He was thirsty while on the cross. Then they taunted Him with vinegar on a sponge.

Phoebe Ann said:

Atonement for sin requires the death of the sacrifice being offered. View attachment 256458

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Yes that was PART of the atonement, but not all of it.

The New Testament places emphasis on Jesus' blood because it is connected to His laying down His life, that is, His death on the cross.

It's not that the act of bleeding is the important part, it's that Christ offered Himself, offered His life, laying it down, being crucified, dying.

There would have been many times over the course of Jesus' life where He would have bled, such as from scrapes, cuts, splinters; but Jesus getting a cut or a splinter working in Joseph's carpentry shop, or walking around the deserts of Judea isn't Jesus shedding His blood for us. Because it's not the act of bleeding that is what the New Testament is concerned with. What the New Testament is concerned with is Jesus' death. Jesus' flesh was broken, His blood was shed, because He was crucified and made to die, and He willingly, freely, laid down His life at the hands of wicked men.

There are a number of Atonement Theories in Christianity, but they all have in common this: That Jesus offered Himself in death to be crucified, and that by laying down His life to die He has made reconciliation between us and God.

Recapitulatian Theory points to Jesus' obedience as the second Adam, who undoes what Adam had done, and thereby establishes a new humanity that shares in His victory over death.

Ransom Theory points to Jesus being given as a ransom to the devil who wields the power of death over the world; the devil considers this a great prize only to be defeated by his trophy. For Christ in dying and rising from defeats the devil, destroys the power of death, and sets hell to ruin (c.f. The Harrowing of Hell).

Satisfaction Theory points to Jesus as making satisfaction for God's injured honor (Anselm) and/or justice (Aquinas); whereby man being unable to meet the just satisfaction of God's Law needs another to make satisfaction for him. Thus Christ meets the just demands of the Law, and makes satisfaction on our behalf.

Penal Substitution Theory speaks of Christ as taking the place of sinful man in order to bear upon Himself the wrathful punishment and condemnation of God.

Christus Victor Theory takes the ideas of Recapitulation and Ransom and puts forward that Christ came to destroy the works of the devil, to liberate captives, and to bring forth victory for the world by dying and rising. And through this He defeats and conquers sin, death, hell, and the devil.

But in every instance we have here this: It is the laying down of Christ's life, for us, willingly, that is what matters. Redemption and reconciliation comes through Christ's own self-offering of Himself in death, and is vindicated (and therefor vindicates us) by rising.

-CryptoLutheran

He is the way said:

You said: YES, JESUS WAS IN AGONY OVER THE DECISION TO GO THROUGH WITH THE CRUCIFIXTION!!

The Bible does not say Christ's agony was over the decision to go through with the crucifixion. You are adding your own perspective to the situation. Neither did I say that all of the atonement took place in the garden. That being said Jesus was not the only one tortured, taunted, and crucified. He was the only sinless one to be crucified although some may have been crucified for sins they did not commit, but they were not sinless. From my understanding many of those that were tortured died before they could be hung on a cross. I do not believe that Christ's agony in the garden had anything to do with the decision to go through with the crucifixion. Rather it was part of His atonement for our sins.

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Please name the verse that states it was part of the atonement for our sins? Please state the verse where the Lamb, on the day of Atonement, was brought in to the sanctuary and tortured and made to bleed first before being killed.

mmksparbud said:

Please name the verse that states it was part of the atonement for our sins? Please state the verse where the Lamb, on the day of Atonement, was brought in to the sanctuary and tortured and made to bleed first before being killed.

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Here is one scripture:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 19:16 - 20)

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

Here is another. I didn't mention the sanctuary.

(New Testament | Mark 15:15 - 20)

15 ¶ And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Prætorium; and they call together the whole band.
17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.

He is the way said:

Here is one scripture:
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 19:16 - 20)

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.

Here is another. I didn't mention the sanctuary.

(New Testament | Mark 15:15 - 20)

15 ¶ And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.
16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Prætorium; and they call together the whole band.
17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of thorns, and put it about his head,
18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.
20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.

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D + C is not scripture.

You NT quotes do not state that partial blood letting is an atonement for our sins and certainly does not state that the Sacrificial Lamb was brought into the Sanctuary and tortured and partially bled before being sacrificed.

mmksparbud said:

D + C is not scripture.

You NT quotes do not state that partial blood letting is an atonement for our sins and certainly does not state that the Sacrificial Lamb was brought into the Sanctuary and tortured and partially bled before being sacrificed.

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Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb. The Lamb of God.

Phoebe Ann said:

Wrong. The atonement wasn't taking place before His death.

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So none of the torture, pain or agony had anything to do with the atonement?

Phoebe Ann said:

Worthy is the Lamb that was SLAIN.

Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

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(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:1 - 2)

1 FORASMUCH then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.