The Forefathers of the Salvation by Works Christians

Danthemailman · May 13, 2019

Shimokita said:
It seems that cut and paste is your friend.

It saves time to cut and paste from a post that I already previously posted. :oldthumbsup:

Danthemailman · May 13, 2019

Shimokita said:
In any event, this argument fails right off the bat because James 2:14 does not state "that faith" or "such faith". It simply states "faith" as in the KJV version. Explained here, for example:

Grace in Focus

Actually James did not use a demonstrative pronoun before the word faith. The Greek merely has the definite article. The noun faith occurs 11 times in vv 14-26. Of the 11 uses, 8 times James uses the definite article. Yet clearly in none of the other 7 places does it make any sense to translate the noun and article as that faith or such faith. For example, v 17, if handled the same way as some translate v 14b, would read, "Thus also that faith by itself, if it does not dead." Is there some kind of faith, then, that is not dead when devoid of works? Hardly. James's point is that faith without works is dead. Not some special kind of faith. So, too, in v 14 James's point is this: faith without works can't save. It is to this point that we now turn.

Actually, my argument does not fail and don't miss the fact that James said "says-claims" to have faith in verse 14. James did not say that this hypothetical person actually had authentic faith.

Also, the NASB says in verse 14 - Can that faith save him? The NIV says Can such faith save him. The Amplified Bible reads - Can that [kind of] faith save him? So what kind of faith is that? -- Empty profession of faith, dead faith. The KJV does not negate "says-claims" to have faith in verse 14.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James' point is this: faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

MDC · May 13, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Yes, so now we talk based on the now. Logically, there are sins that are actually evil and there are sins made because the person is flawed. You and I are flawed, but we are not evil. So for you to be considered as even as someone like Jeff Dahmer - who murdered, raped, ate, and had sex with corpses of little boys is completely wrong judgement.

Sadly, most protestants who force this faith alone fallacy have claimed that sins such as that of Dahmer can be forgiven when he just starts believing in Jesus -- over a kid who grew up in a non-christian home and died not believing. This belief/teaching shows that there is no such thing as actual morality but all about appeasing the vanity of a deity, which is not only unintelligent but anti-christ in itself.

If such an evil person was saved by Gods grace in Christ then that person would have much to be forgiven for. You seem to not understand what comes when God saves a sinner. Do you believe such a person demonstrates no repentance if saved? I’ll ask again what makes you worthy of Gods mercy?

lsume · May 13, 2019

fhansen said:
Yes! "Apart from Me you can do nothing." This is the essence of the New Covenant. And this is exactly the truth Adam missed.

We need to stand back and look at the big picture in all this. What is God meaning to accomplish with His creation? In some theologies God basically created man to inevitably sin, blamed him for sinning anyway, and at some later date places some of us worthless wretches in heaven and the rest in hell. Pretty much end of story. The heaven-bound elect were the fortunate predestined ones while the reprobate obviously not so fortunate.

In Catholic theology God created man as a noble and beautiful creature made in His own image (pretty much not contradicted at this point by most theologies) who failed to live up to the potential he was made for (a failure we can all readily observe in ourselves and others in this world daily). And God, knowing this would occur of course, had an overall plan in place from the beginning. From the larger perspective He had made His world in a "state of journeying towards an ultimate perfection” as the Catholic Catechism teaches. He had a plan-to produce something, something even better than He started with presumably. So all the intervening centuries of human joy and misery: pain and sin and suffering and death, between Eden and now make sense; it has a purpose, the purpose of helping educate us to receive Him, to develop a hunger and thirst for goodness and righteousness and for all that we missed by dismissing and abandoning Him, when the time was ripe. Man needs to realize just how much he needs God.

So is God’s purpose really to suddenly ignore justice in His wayward creation with the advent of Christ, by imputing that justice forensically? Or has his purpose always been to restore that justice, but in the right way finally?

Love is the true measure of man’s justice or righteousness. So Jesus gives us the Greatest Commandments, the first echoing Deut 6:5:
“Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.”
And the second applying that love also to neighbor
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
All the other commandments are based on these two. And all the other commandments are fulfilled in these two.

And God is saying, with the Cross, “This is how much I love you, this is what I would endure for you, now do the same.”
“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19
And, “I forgive all, now do the same”
“For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15

From the beginning God has been patiently working to bring man to this point, to the point of love. Had Adam been ready, had he chosen this path in Eden, perhaps characterized by eating of the Tree of Life instead of the other, our history could’ve presumably been very different. And yet we know it could’ve only gone the way it has.

Anyway, faith is meant to lead to this justice, this righteousness, this love, as faith re-establishes or constitutes communion with God who is love. We’re saved by faith, via faith, through faith. James was essentially saying that if faith doesn’t lead to and produce that kind of love then it remains dormant, dead, unproductive. Because love always acts, by its nature, producing the kind of behavior such as that which I mentioned in post #72. And Paul, likewise, understood well that love is the core and apex of the Christian faith as Rom 13 and especially 1 Cor 13 demonstrate. But love is easily overlooked and dismissed, as even God, Himself, is easily enough dismissed from Eden on, truth be known. “These people pay Me lip-service but their hearts are far from Me.” Is 29:13

So I can be circumcised, baptized, properly catechized and finally nicely eulogized after a life of obeying the commandants perfectly and even having a faith that can move mountains but if I have not love, I am nothing, Paul tells us. Augustine put it this way, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

And consider this interesting truth. The Greatest Commandments are the only ones that cannot be faked, or done for the wrong reasons. I can obey all the others for all the wrong reasons but if I truly obey the command to love then I’ve “arrived”; my justice is complete. Love isn’t love if it’s pretended. The other commandments show us what love should “look like”. They just cannot cause us to love as we should; the Law cannot justify; only God can do that. “Apart from me you can do nothing.” And Basil of Cesarea, a 3rd century bishop, had this to say:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for Him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.”

Anyway, we cannot assume that faith will lead to justice or righteousness without our continuous willing cooperation and participation in walking in that justice. Otherwise we’d be burying our talents. Faith does not replace righteous or justice in us, or stand in for it, or excuse us from the need for it, rather it’s the beginning of justice, the doorway to it because it’s the doorway to God.

Perhaps the greatest mystery in The Word of God is the born again experience. Until one goes through the born again experience, that person cannot understand. As to the thief on the cross, we don’t know when he was baptized in The Holy Spirit. I assume it was on the cross where the thief that went with Christ to Paradise was baptized.

BNR32FAN · May 13, 2019

bcbsr said:
In Mt 25 they were separated into two groups according to what they were. And sheep behave as sheep because that's their nature. Goats behave as goats because that's their nature. It is because of the regenerate nature that genuine believers in Christ, having been saved by trusting in Christ apart from works, behave as they do, in contrast to children of the devil.

"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

This as opposed to the various postulations of salvation by works sects in which, for example, there are not two categories of people, but rather a whole spectrum of people whom God weighs in the balance as to whether they will be saved based upon measuring up to some standard, such as the law of Moses, or the Catholic canon law.

This wouldn’t explain John 15:1-10 Romans 11:17-23 or Ephesians 5:1-11.

John 15:1-10 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide.

Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns believers who are grafted in of being cut off.

Ephesians 5:1-11 Paul warns children of God of receiving God’s wrath.

bcbsr · May 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
This wouldn’t explain John 15:1-10 Romans 11:17-23 or Ephesians 5:1-11.

John 15:1-10 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide.

Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns believers who are grafted in of being cut off.

Ephesians 5:1-11 Paul warns children of God of receiving God’s wrath.

John 15 is talking to people who hadn't yet receive the Spirit and as such had not been born God. "Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:39 And "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Rom 8:9 Of those who do not belong to Christ it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

Romans 11 is talking about Gentiles as a category, not about individual believers.

As for Eph 5:5, which is similar to 1Cor 6:9,10 it's not talking about losing salvation - or as you "faith in works Christian" believe - that salvation is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Rather these are describing behaviors of the unsaved, those have not been born of God. For it says of those who have been born of God "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10 Thus those children of the devil who have infiltrated the ranks of the Christianity community can be identified by their behavior

Cis.jd · May 13, 2019

MDC said:
If such an evil person was saved by Gods grace in Christ then that person would have much to be forgiven for. You seem to not understand what comes when God saves a sinner. Do you believe such a person demonstrates no repentance if saved? I’ll ask again what makes you worthy of Gods mercy?

But that makes no sense if you believe in the whole Moral code that christians argue with non believers. This shows that morality doesn't really exist. If you have an evil person like Dahmer just go into heaven all because he suddenly became a christian during his time in death row, while a kid who died a non christian goes to hell. That kid's only fault was pure ignorance while Dahmer's reasons don't matter just based on how he killed his victims. If that is ok while the later isn't, then what is the point of morality when the only thing good is worshiping this Deity?

GodsGrace101 · May 13, 2019

Cis.jd said:
But that makes no sense if you believe in the whole Moral code that christians argue with non believers. This shows that morality doesn't really exist. If you have an evil person like Dahmer just go into heaven all because he suddenly became a christian during his time in death row, while a kid who died a non christian goes to hell. That kid's only fault was pure ignorance while Dahmer's reasons don't matter just based on how he killed his victims. If that is ok while the later isn't, then what is the point of morality when the only thing good is worshiping this Deity?

Hi C,

There's a very basic Christian teaching that you seem to be missing.

The person that is going to heaven in the one that believes in God and serves God.

If a person does not believe in God,,,how could they go to be with Him when they die?

So, actually, what you state above is correct.
A murderer that repents will end up in heaven.

A non-believer, no matter how good he is- will not end up in heaven.

This is because a person cannot be good enough for God. Only those who believe in God will go to be with Him.

Read John 3:3 again: JESUS SAID
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Also read again John 3:16-18 JESUS SAID
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Cis.jd · May 13, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Hi C,

There's a very basic Christian teaching that you seem to be missing.

The person that is going to heaven in the one that believes in God and serves God.

If a person does not believe in God,,,how could they go to be with Him when they die?

So, actually, what you state above is correct.
A murderer that repents will end up in heaven.

A non-believer, no matter how good he is- will not end up in heaven.
This is because a person cannot be good enough for God. Only those who believe in God will go to be with Him.

Yes, i get this is a christian teaching --according to protestants (Faith alone) and I am showing how logically problematic it is.

Just by what you said here, how are you ever going to talk about morality being real --or having a significance?

You are telling me a person who not only murdered little boys, but ate them and had sex with their corpses just goes straight to heaven from just gaining a belief/repentance while a person who's only fault was pure ignorance goes straight to hell? That shows morality is completely meaningless because the only thing that is moral is appeasing the vanity of a god.

BNR32FAN · May 13, 2019

bcbsr said:
John 15 is talking to people who hadn't yet receive the Spirit and as such had not been born God. "Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:39 And "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." Rom 8:9 Of those who do not belong to Christ it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

Romans 11 is talking about Gentiles as a category, not about individual believers.

As for Eph 5:5, which is similar to 1Cor 6:9,10 it's not talking about losing salvation - or as you "faith in works Christian" believe - that salvation is contingent upon one's ongoing performance. Rather these are describing behaviors of the unsaved, those have not been born of God. For it says of those who have been born of God "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10 Thus those children of the devil who have infiltrated the ranks of the Christianity community can be identified by their behavior

So your saying Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles didn’t belong to Christ? How could they abide in Christ if they did not belong to Him? Your quote of first Romans 8:9 is after Pentecost. The apostles didn’t need the Holy Spirit at that time because they had Jesus to guide them who kept them by His power and the very same night just a few moments after John 15 in John 17 Jesus prays asking The Father Himself to keep them from falling and even said to them

“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. This I command you, that you love one another. "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:15-20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Your explanation of Romans 11 is incorrect my friend.

“Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭11:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

All of the Jews were not cut off, only those who didn’t believe in Christ were cut off, and God does not cut off all Gentiles because of individuals who fail to believe. So again I maintain that Paul is in fact warning individuals who were grafted in of being cut off and can be grafted in again if they repent. This message is not specifically only for groups of gentiles or Jews.

Now concerning Ephesians 5 let’s not simply take verse 5 by itself out of the context of the message. That’s the biggest problem with those who advocate OSAS. They take bits and pieces of the message disregarding that parts that refute OSAS. Paul is warning children of God of receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

“But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:3-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again your not reading 1 John 3:9-10 in the proper context. As Paul has shown in Ephesians 5 a child of God can become a son of disobedience and suffer God’s wrath resulting in loss of salvation.

There is no exclusion of believers anywhere in these messages.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that ANYONE living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:19-21

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, EVERY TREE that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor ANYONE who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Revelation 21:27

A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:45-51

A servant of the master is a servant of God. This is not referring to unbelievers. Unbelievers do not serve God.

bcbsr said:
or as you "faith in works Christian" believe - that salvation is contingent upon one's ongoing performance.

No I’m saying one’s ongoing performance must reflect their faith. A lack of works shows a lack of faith and indicates the person is not abiding in Christ and Christ is not abiding in Him. Jesus said anyone who abides in Him will bear much fruit. He didn’t say they might bear fruit or they may bear a little fruit. The words He said was “they WILL bear MUCH FRUIT”.

GodsGrace101 · May 13, 2019

Cis.jd said:
Yes, i get this is a christian teaching --according to protestants (Faith alone) and I am showing how logically problematic it is.

Just by what you said here, how are you ever going to talk about morality being real --or having a significance?

You are telling me a person who not only murdered little boys, but ate them and had sex with their corpses just goes straight to heaven from just gaining a belief/repentance while a person who's only fault was pure ignorance goes straight to hell? That shows morality is completely meaningless because the only thing that is moral is appeasing the vanity of a god.

First of all, it's not a protestant belief.
The catholic church believes this also,,,you can ask your priest or anyone that would know doctrine.

Also, not all protestants believe in faith alone in the sense that THEY mean it. Faith alone saves us...
Ephesians 2:8-9, which the catholic church also believes...but then we get to Ephesians 2:10 and yes, God does require our cooperation to stay saved,,and most protestants and catholics believe this.

You know how the bible says that God's ways are not our ways. When I first became born again I also thought this was very unfair...but our salvation does not depend on our actions UNTIL we are saved.

God will forgive anything up till our dying day.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul--a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

The thief on the cross was saved as he was dying.
Luke 23:43

It doesn't have to do with the vanity of a god.
It has to do with the condition of our spirit upon death and when we will be judged right afterward.

The ONLY sin that cannot be forgiven is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This can be understood in 2 different ways:

1. It's when we give credit to satan for doing something that the Holy Spirit did.

2. We reach our point of death and have always rejected the Holy Spirit (or God, or Jesus).

What you're talking about is number 2.
You might be a new Christian or you may just not like this teaching...but nonetheless, it's true.

MDC · May 13, 2019

mark kennedy said:
Catholics and Protestants both believe justification is by grace through faith. In Eph. 2:8,9 it does say it's apart from works, but in the 10th verse it says we are created 'in Christ' for good works. All these emotive challenges over works and not once are you going to discuss what works are in view. What's more Ephesians 2 is a doctrinal discussion of the gospel. The condition of the believer before Christ (vs. 1-3), then conversion (vs. 4-7). Then Paul emphasises it's nothing we did but God's mercy, kindness and love that saved us, not by good works but for good works.

I've never seen anyone argue salvation by works. Catholics and Protestants differ on how the grace of God is applied but I know no Christian tradition that teaches such a thing.

So you believe the same as Catholicism on justification? You’ve never seen anyone argue salvation by works? Really? Infused righteousness and imputed righteousness are not the same. Although many will not come out and say that salvation is by works they definitely imply it by doctrines they hold to

MDC · May 13, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
MDC,
You're getting justification mixed up with sanctification.
Why is it that we have such a problem with sanctification?

What you are describing above is justification.
Every church I know of (I don't know them all) believes exactly as you have posted.

Even the catholic church.

From the official teaching of the CC, The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

No I’m not

BNR32FAN · May 13, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
MDC,
You're getting justification mixed up with sanctification.
Why is it that we have such a problem with sanctification?

What you are describing above is justification.
Every church I know of (I don't know them all) believes exactly as you have posted.

Even the catholic church.

From the official teaching of the CC, The Catechism of the Catholic Church:

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35
1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

I politely disagree with this definition of justification. Justification is the removal of past sins thereby making us right with God. Sanctification is the process of receiving the new heart which leads us to follow God’s commandments. Justification is an immediate action while sanctification is a process of cutting away our sinful nature. The removal of our sinful nature isn’t done overnight. This is why a person can fall from grace after being justified. Just because we have been made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t be made wrong with Him again. During the process of sanctification we can stumble in or even fall from grace completely. Personally I don’t believe we will achieve glorification until we die. I believe we will always be in the sanctification process as long as we live. We just get better and better at it as God works in us teaching us along the way.

GodsGrace101 · May 13, 2019

MDC said:
No I’m not

No, you're not WHAT?

You state wrong doctrine for the catholic church
and you explain justification correctly but mistake it for sanctification.

1. The Catholic church believes we are saved the same way every other church does...an act of God based on our faith with no action from us.

2. Justification is a free act of God's mercy and required so action from us.

3. Sanctification is an on-going process that lasts all our lives and requires our cooperation with God.

Here's what Jesus said we should do:

John 8:31
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;"

GodsGrace101 · May 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I politely disagree with this definition of justification. Justification is the removal of past sins thereby making us right with God. Sanctification is the process of receiving the new heart which leads us to follow God’s commandments. Justification is an immediate action while sanctification is a process of cutting away our sinful nature. The removal of our sinful nature isn’t done overnight. This is why a person can fall from grace after being justified. Just because we have been made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t be made wrong with Him again. During the process of sanctification we can stumble in or even fall from grace completely. Personally I don’t believe we will achieve glorification until we die. I believe we will always be in the sanctification process as long as we live. We just get better and better at it as God works in us teaching us along the way.

I agree.
I also agree that we are glorified only at death.

What I posted from the CCC must have said something to make you disagree...the CCC is a very difficult book to understand; not because it's too scholarly, but because of how its written.

If you care to go over something fine; otherwise we could let it go since I'm not catholic but I do know their doctrine.

MDC · May 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I politely disagree with this definition of justification. Justification is the removal of past sins thereby making us right with God. Sanctification is the process of receiving the new heart which leads us to follow God’s commandments. Justification is an immediate action while sanctification is a process of cutting away our sinful nature. The removal of our sinful nature isn’t done overnight. This is why a person can fall from grace after being justified. Just because we have been made right with God doesn’t mean we can’t be made wrong with Him again. During the process of sanctification we can stumble in or even fall from grace completely. Personally I don’t believe we will achieve glorification until we die. I believe we will always be in the sanctification process as long as we live. We just get better and better at it as God works in us teaching us along the way.

Wow what a twist on justification and sanctification. You are actually in agreement with Catholicism. I agree with the beginning but then you speak of losing ones standing as far as justification is concerned. You’ve actually turned the sanctification process into how ones ultimately justified in the end. Therefore nullifying Christ and His merits of righteousness as the basis for justification by faith alone. Catholicism teaches infused righteousness is a sanctifying grace whereby man merits justification through sacraments and good works. You are the same. You do not believe Christ alone merits justification for the believer. Yet you believe like Catholicism, cooperative effort is needed to be justified and saved in the end. You have compounded ones sanctification as the means to be justified. This is false

MDC · May 13, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
No, you're not WHAT?

You state wrong doctrine for the catholic church
and you explain justification correctly but mistake it for sanctification.

1. The Catholic church believes we are saved the same way every other church does...an act of God based on our faith with no action from us.

2. Justification is a free act of God's mercy and required so action from us.

3. Sanctification is an on-going process that lasts all our lives and requires our cooperation with God.

Here's what Jesus said we should do:

John 8:31
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;"

The same as you and others who promote your works as a means to justification yes I agree. But that’s not biblical truth

GodsGrace101 · May 13, 2019

MDC said:
Wow what a twist on justification and sanctification. You are actually in agreement with Catholicism. I agree with the beginning but then you speak of losing ones standing as far as justification is concerned. You’ve actually turned the sanctification process into how ones ultimately justified in the end. Therefore nullifying Christ and His merits of righteousness as the basis for justification by faith alone. Catholicism teaches infused righteousness is a sanctifying grace whereby man merits justification through sacraments and good works. You are the same. You do not believe Christ alone merits justification for the believer. Yet you believe like Catholicism, cooperative effort is needed to be justified and saved in the end. You have compounded ones sanctification as the means to be justified. This is false

MDC
Let us try again:

ALL churches I know of agree that we are justified by faith alone.

Good works ARE required of the Christian person and this is sanctification.

NO COOPERATIVE EFFORT IS NEEDED FOR JUSTIFICATION, as you've incorrectly stated in your post.

What does this mean to you:

John 14:15 JESUS SAID
"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments".

What commandments do you suppose Jesus is speaking of?

Do you think He wants you to obey Him?

GodsGrace101 · May 13, 2019

MDC said:
The same as you and others who promote your works as a means to justification yes I agree. But that’s not biblical truth

NOBODY promotes WORKS as a means to justification.

Can you explain the difference between justification and sanctification? This is crucial in understanding Christianity.

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