Honest Exegeting of Romans 9

Mathetes66 said:

Scripture calls it the Old Covenant (made with the NATION OF ISRAEL) and Scripture calls it the New Covenant (made with the Messiah & Redeemer & the whole world). Both the Old & the New Covenants are repeatedly mentioned in Scripture. So it isn't a matter of semantics but Scripture is the revelation of God Himself & is the truth. The Abrahamic Covenant is with an individual, to be a father of many nations.

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The old covenant is to Israel, by Law and contains prophecy about the coming covenant, that binds to promises to Abraham.

The New Covenant is brought forth by Jesus’ Death, Burial and Resurrection.

There are 3 distinct Promises rendered...

Abrahamic, which binds to Christ, but was indeed to Abraham

Moses, which binds to the Law

Jesus, New Wine / New Covenant... Law of Love fulfilled

How this plays out and is described is contingent on words chosen by each individual explaining it.

jgr said:

Yes, the Israel of faith and obedience.

The only Israel that God has ever recognized.

Identified not by physical DNA, but by spiritual DNA.

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You’re not reading Romans 9:1-6 with your eyes open.

Romans 9:3-4 utterly dismantles your premise without question.

You would have to rewrite it to be correct!

To be a little overly dramatic, but honest, you are calling Paul a liar, while he has placed himself under the oath of Christ (in the Holy Spirit) in his speech. (Romans 9:1-2)

jgr said:

Were those blessings for the faithful and obedient of Israel?

Or for unfaithful and disobedient of Israel?

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Paul is literally broken over unbelieving “Kinsmen”, “of His blood”, because they are “Anathema”... and he calls them “Israelites”!

Exegete it out. You can’t get what you’re positing out of it.

Romans 9:1-6

jgr said:

Sure. So why was he all worked up if he believed that the unfaithful and disobedient would be saved along with the faithful and obedient?

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He realizes that they are soon to lose their cherished Capitol and be dispersed.

Romans 11:11-36 remains as it remains and indeed was a source of peace and hope to Paul.

Romans 11:27-29 specifically spells out the hope that remains for the “Enemy of the Gospel, brethren, of Paul’s “Blood””..

jgr said:

Paul realizes that only His People, the faithful obedient elect remnant, will be saved (Isaiah 65:2; Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4-5).

He expresses this inevitability conditionally:

Romans 11
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

There would be no need for that declaration if Paul believed that unfaithful disobedient Israel would be saved along with faithful obedient Israel.

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

There would be no need for that declaration if Paul believed that unfaithful disobedient Israel would be saved along with faithful obedient Israel.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

All Israel is not everyone of Israel. Rather, it is the faithful obedient elect remnant.

Romans 11
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ: His Church.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were not, and are not, bestowed upon those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


God's calling was not, and is not, directed to those of Paul's countrymen according to the flesh who are enemies of the gospel.
It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People: His Church.
To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable.

Under no conditions or circumstances can unbelievers, enemies of the gospel, ever be the recipients of God's gifts and calling.

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IMO, Paul specifies that the promises of God are irrevocable and the context of Romans 11:25-36, which is unmistakable has to do with a future time?

And what of this verse? Romans 5:10

What of Romans 9:20-21 ?

Is this entire book/Epistle of Romans not about God turning the hearts of the Godless?

Romans 4:4-5

HOW DEEP DOES THAT BLOOD GO?

Consider this question...

JONAH... do you now sit on the hill top and wait to watch Nineveh burn? Does the shade tree HE placed over you not remind you how Deep His Goodness is? Who are we to draw boundaries on how far His grace can go? Shall they merely rise to be put to eternal shame?

But Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: Though the number of Israel’s sons is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved; for the Lord will execute His sentence completely and decisively on the earth.
Romans 9:27-28 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:27-28 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here we have the prophet Isaiah being quoted and specifically citing the end times, by evoking the words, “though the number of Israel’s sons (Genetic reference to Jacob) is like the sand of the sea”, only the remnant will be saved. Immediately apocalyptic verbiage is evoked.

Arab nations are prolific with the genetic seed of Jacob. Many of the literal bloodline of Jacob have either been converted to a specific Ottoman Empire Religion, and integrated bloodline into those nations, or perpetuated Jewish tradition... or Converted to Christ, or insert other... but they remain to this day. When the word “remnant” is evoked, in conjunction with end-time verbiage, we instantly see the sands of the sea reference that binds to specific verses in Revelation. Now, the Remnant is represented in “Revelation 144,000”. But that’s a 12 X 12 reference of sorts... and we know Revelation uses symbolism, thus the number of remnant that come from the dead of the sea (of death) that will be like the sand the sea, will be astronomical!

So it comes to it... now it’s time to dig into Revelation...

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
Revelation 20:1-3 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:1-3 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Here we see that the commander of the Angelic Rebellion bound for 1000 years. Incase anyone forgot... this “Adversary” of God literally ENTERED into a man at the time Jesus walked the earth, specifically to rise up against “God’s Anointed Servant”. (Acts 10:38, John 13:37). We know that Satan didn’t realize he was playing right into God’s hands when he did so. (1 Corinthians 2:8)

Is this thousand years Amillennial, or yet to come ... Futurist?

The most honest theological answer is that we don’t really know for sure. Thus as these verses in conjunction to this are read, it’s best to look at both perspectives.

Because of Satan being cast to the earth after Christ’s ascension... (Revelation 12:5-9), we know that Satan was removed from Heaven at that specific point. Though much fringe theology attempts to relegate Satan to being cast from Heaven post (Genesis 3), we have the book of Job to assure us he had full access to Heavenly Council during OT Times. We also know Satan was the one that exploited the presence of the law, before Jesus’ DBR. (Hebrews 2:14; 1 Corinthians 15:51-56)

The important thing to follow, now, is what Revelation 20 evokes in parallel with other Revelation passages.

The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years. When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:5-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:5-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

We see Paul evoke the Sands of the sea verbiage in Romans 9:27-28 in an identical way that binds to End Times, Biblical passages... and without a doubt, can now relate this to the post 1000 years Resurrection of the dead that are not in Christ.

How can I confidently say the dead raised that are not in Christ?

Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the people who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God’s word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:4-6 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:4-6 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

This binds to Christ’s promise here... (John 5:24)

We are now guaranteed that the Judgment of the great white Throne is reserved for those that die outside of faith in Christ. We also see, without a doubt, that this great white throne is a seat of judgment, not condemnation as some will be saved and others will be lost eternally.

Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:11-15 - Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:11-15 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

We can see that Revelation 20 has some overview characteristics that cause its passages to overlap.

The post Millennial events are all part of the Great White Throne, and as we are certain we spend our time with Christ, after our Believing death here on earth, we are almost forced into an A-Millennial view. (<~ @mister rogers ?) I could waffle and say that the idea we rest in the earth until the next resurrection could be valid but we have these verses (2 Corinthians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). This is how we know that the bodies being resurrected are not a reference to our state of being while dead, but the moment we will receive our resurrection bodies, as Jesus did on the THIRD DAY. Jesus also was alive apart from His body while in the tomb, because we have Peter tell us so. (1 Peter 3:18-19)... that’s right, if you read the verses from 1 Peter 3 you now know why this happened (Matthew 27:50-53)... while we’re at it... Who do you think did this? (Matthew 27:51)?

Okay... an entire, cross referenced scripture book could proof this, but I’ll leave it to the reader to seek out scripture and decide for themselves.

Wphewwwwwww!!!’ All that from two verses!!!

This is why Romans 9 to Romans 11 is a serious passage of scripture that gets blazed through to validate minor theologies, while it is a tie in of Gen - Rev!

Concluded... Romans 9:29-33

And just as Isaiah predicted: If the Lord of Hosts had not left us offspring, we would have become like Sodom, and we would have been made like Gomorrah.
Romans 9:29 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:29 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now, what do we see in Sodom and Gomorrah?

(Ezekiel 16:49-50)

But is it over for Sodom and Gomorrah?

(Matthew 10:15)

It’s not! There is still the day of Judgment, which hasn’t come yet and is collectively known to be a day of Judgment that will yield salvation or condemnation.

So we see that as surely as Believing Israel is now integrated into the Earthly BOC, and the Earthly BOC becomes part of the Heavenly Jerusalem, as each member “passes through the veil”... we also see that the Unbelieving of all time will come to one last time of Judgment.

Does God shoot first and ask questions later at time of Judgment?

(Jonah 3:10)

What should we say then? Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained righteousness—namely the righteousness that comes from faith.

Paul sets up a complex rhetoric to evaluate what has come to pass, post DBR.

But Israel, pursuing the law for righteousness, has not achieved the righteousness of the law.

He contrasts Israel of the Law, 430 years after Abraham and forward with The Gentile BOC.

Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.
Romans 9:30-32 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:30-32 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now, Paul is asking if the Law Based Israel failed because they pursued God By Works of Law, verses the now Revealed path of Faith, while explaining Israel (Unbelieving) has stumbled over Jesus, and Fallen.

As it is written: Look! I am putting a stone in Zion to stumble over and a rock to trip over, yet the one who believes on Him will not be put to shame.
Romans 9:33 - Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:33 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Paul, now having reidentified, Believing Israel, Believing Gentiles and Unbelieving Israel that has stumbled over Jesus and is fallen/cut off are all subject to being without shame, if and when they maintain belief or relinquish unbelief!

Belief in what?

(John 5:39-40)

Back to the start of the multi chapter Exegesis
Romans 9-11, Acts 1, Zechariah 14, Joel 3 and Galatians 4 and 6:16